Carmack: Rage to look worse on 360 if limited to two DVDs

by Christopher Grant { Aug 1st 2008 at 9:38AM }

Fanboys, start your engines! According to id Software's resident genius John Carmack, the developer's upcoming title Rage could actually look worse on Xbox 360 "due to the compression needed to fit the game's assets on two DVDs," reports Shacknews.

Evidently royalty fees associated with a third disc would make the project financially unviable, so Carmack's looking to Microsoft to bite the bullet and rescind the fee or suffer the consequences (read: a multiplatform AAA title that looks worse on 360). Perhaps, unsurpringly considering the large size of the game's texture files, Carmack doesn't think that Doom 4 or Rage will make their way to digital distribution anytime soon.

[Thanks, Anonim]

Tags: EA, id-Software, John-Carmack, Rage

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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)

Akamaru @ Aug 1st 2008 9:43AM

This was gonna happen sooner or later. Who knew that royalty fees would come into play though.

Stoo @ Aug 1st 2008 9:55AM

The issue of the royalty fees is the most interesting part of this story, but its going to be completely muddied by the PS3 vs Xbox argument.

Why would royalties be higher for a multi-disc game?
I can't see the logic, perhaps someone can explain it.
I understand increased manufacturing costs but surely that would be the same situation as the Pc DVD platform, and Carmack has already said its coming on both DVD and Blu-Ray for Pc and Mac. So the minimal production cost of a third DVD isn't the issue.

copa @ Aug 1st 2008 10:45AM

"Why would royalties be higher for a multi-disc game?"

Because Microsoft's historical modus operandi as a monopoly is shining through here.

To this day, Microsoft struggles with free-market, entrepreneurial concepts. Just as with their operating system platform, they have a tendency to distrust and micromanage third-party developers, rather than encourage them to use their creativity and let the market sort out what works and what doesn't.

So you see Microsoft impose arbitrary size limits on XBLA downloadable games.

And you see Microsoft impose financial penalties on companies that want to develop multi-disc games.

And you see Microsoft disallow the publishing of user-generated content, and impose so many restrictions on third-party server environments that MMO's are nearly impossible to develop.

And if Microsoft feels that you are not charging enough for content that you want to distribute on XBox Live Marketplace, you will not be allowed to use their storefront.

And you see the Games For Windows Live platform fail completely because of the ridiculously onerous restrictions that Microsoft wanted to put on licensees.

In all of these cases, Microsoft would have a stronger platform if they allowed developers to operate outside of these artificial constraints, and let customers decide what works, and what doesn't work. But Microsoft usually operates from a perspective that they know better than everyone else, which almost invariably is proven false.

Markez (MKWii 4339-2878-5120) @ Aug 1st 2008 10:46AM

Yeah, agreed, this is where I'm a little lost. I don't wholly understand why a 3rd disc would be a deal-breaker in this regard. Seems like it'd be an easy call? Just a disc, can't imagine the mfg costs would be THAT steep...

cc123 @ Aug 1st 2008 11:11AM

"Just a disc, can't imagine the mfg costs would be THAT steep..."

Carmack isn't complaining about the manufacturing costs of the third
disc. He is complaining about the extra royalty fees he would have
to pay MS for including a third disc in the game.

Which brought into light something most of us didn't know: royalty
fees on the 360 (maybe all?) are not just per game but per disc in
the game as well.

Cody @ Aug 1st 2008 11:27AM

I think copa just killed the need for any further discussion on this article.

Well said!

Erik Stroud @ Aug 1st 2008 11:28AM

Just as long as I can play on pc, I will be fine. Since I can play Crysis with all but 3 things on high at 30 FPS to 40 FPS, I'm confident I can play these games. If I have too, I will add another card and do sli.

Paul (PSN: heypaul) @ Aug 1st 2008 11:58AM

*Apologies for the massive wall of text coming up.

I think you're right on your second point, Sean. But as for the first, I'm rather certain whatever association receives licensing fees for the use of DVDs doesn't give a hoot whether a publisher uses one or a thousand. On the other hand Microsoft has a reputation to defend (i.e. that they were right and Sony was wrong regarding whether DVD really is sufficient storage for this generation). It sounds like they've decided to allow two disc games, but since games shipping on three or four DVDs make them look especially foolish/short-sighted, they'll do what they can to discourage it. Extra royalties, however, do seem to ease the embarassment.

On the end of the spectrum, I'm sure Sony does their damndest to encourage developers to use uncompressed textures and audio, overbloated code, duplicate data and hard drive installs to prove that their statements regarding Blu-ray and standard hard drives being necessary are true.

The truth of the matter is, not enough time has passed yet this generation to definitively prove whether 9GB is too restrictive or whether 50GB is a costly, unnecessary luxury. Would Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey have benefited from shipping on a single Blu-ray disc? Certainly. Would Assassin's Creed have more depth if Ubi had more space to work with? Perhaps. BUT, would Motorstorm be a much tighter experience if it shipped on fast-loading DVD? Definitely. Would Devil May Cry 4 have pissed me off less if I didn't have to sit through a 20 minute install? Without a doubt.

At this point, neither company is completely right, but each company has a PR image to uphold in order to retain consumer confidence. If I, the consumer, believe Microsoft made all the right decisions this generation, I'm more likely to purchase a Microsoft console next generation. Most likely, neither Sony nor Microsoft are entirely right, but that won't stop either of them from doing everything they can to make the other guy look like an idiot.

Paul (PSN: heypaul) @ Aug 1st 2008 12:02PM

My bad, guys. My post didn't show up the first time, and since I didn't want to lose my massive essay, I reposted and in the process clicked the wrong reply button. That is a reply to Sean's post on the next page.

Averna @ Aug 1st 2008 12:37PM

"On the other hand Microsoft has a reputation to defend (i.e. that they were right and Sony was wrong regarding whether DVD really is sufficient storage for this generation). It sounds like they've decided to allow two disc games, but since games shipping on three or four DVDs make them look especially foolish/short-sighted, they'll do what they can to discourage it. Extra royalties, however, do seem to ease the embarassment."

I would imagine that a game not appearing on the console at all would be more embarassing and punishing the publisher for Microsoft's short sightedness is very... strange...

embassy @ Aug 1st 2008 1:02PM

ok, just to clear all this up...none of this is microsofts fault.

whenever a copy of a copyrighted work is pressed/manufactured/created it is FEDERAL LAW that you pay a royalty known as a mechanical royalty, to do this you obtain a mechanical license.

and that's the situation here folks, it's not microsoft being greedy, that's just how copyright law works. ( obviously i dumbed it down quite a bit but you should get the idea).

so if a game is 3 discs, you pay a royalty for every disc pressed.

the numbers can obviously be worked out and negotiated, but for a game so early in development im sure talks havent even gotten that far.

i'm pretty sure this is the issue going on. If anyone would like to expand on that please do.

OhJustSomeRandomGuy @ Aug 1st 2008 1:39PM

For all of you railing against Microsoft and the DVD-ROM royalty fee chargers, you're off-bass partially.

This fee is charged by ALL game publishers. (Started by Nintendo, actually. Read "Game Over" or Greg Costyikan's rant from a few GDC's ago.) It's not the royalty for the pressing of the disc. It's the royalty for the privilege of having your game run on their system.

Nintendo started the dick move of having you pay the royalty at the time of manufacture and not the time of sale (so, the console maker doesn't honestly give a crap whether your game sells 1 million copies or 10 copies, so long as you printed 1 million copies. They already got their maximum amount of cash out of the transaction already.) and from that point forward, publishers have shouldered all the risk of publishing.

Anyway, this isn't SOLELY a Microsoft thing. If you produce a Wii game that's 2 discs, you pay 2 * (Nintendo Royalty). If you make a PS2 game that's 2 discs, you pay 2 * (Sony Royalty).

Kudos for Carmack stepping up and calling Microsoft out on it, because it really does not make any sense. It's a cash grab on the part of all companies, plain and simple.

cc123 @ Aug 1st 2008 1:49PM

@embassy

I just looked up mechanical royalty and it has to do with use of copyrighted audio. From what I understood it's money paid to the creators for using their music in games, dvds, cds, toys...whatever. Maybe there is more to it, but what does this have to do with the royalties Carmack is talking about?

Also, even if this were the case why would Carmack be asking MS to concede something that FEDERAL LAW requires him to pay? That doesn't make sense.

Now OhJustSomeRandomGuy's explanation makes sense.

embassy @ Aug 1st 2008 3:25PM

cc123,

mechanical rights apply to all forms of copyrightable IP's; A/V works, performing arts, literary/text works ( which includes computer code), fine arts, dramatic works etc.

so no, it does apply here.

cc123 @ Aug 1st 2008 4:27PM

Well if you say so. Everything I read deals with it as if it was for copyrighted audio. Even the rates are calculated by 'playing time': http://www.copyright.gov/carp/m200a.html But it could just be very ambiguous.

Regardless, why would Carmack be trying to get a concession from MS over a federal law? That just doesn't add up.

embassy @ Aug 1st 2008 5:47PM

oh you don't know the half of the ambiguity of copyright law..it's pretty ludicrous.

as for the LoC websites Mech rates, it's given in a flat rate per copy made *and* a per minute rate which usually applies to songs over 5 minutes. So other Ip's like movies being pressed on DVDs or a publisher printing books would just use the flat rate.

the reason so much info is geared toward music is because the music industry is one of the top exploiters of this law.

carmac is mentioning it because mech rates *are* negotiable. So MS can accept a lower rate than the statutory rate if they come to some kind of agreement.

I'm actually suprised of the lack of info regarding mech licensing and other industries myself, but copyright laws aren't limited to music, but music is one of the biggest players in copyright law.

Duke @ Aug 1st 2008 9:45AM

Oh this should be good - Flame shields activate!

xFenixKnightx @ Aug 1st 2008 9:53AM

Duke, this is Fenix, I have a visual on incoming fanboys at approximatly 100 meters, over.

FOXHOUND @ Aug 1st 2008 10:04AM

-cue "HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE"-

XD

xFenixKnightx @ Aug 1st 2008 10:08AM

Roger that, over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8rZWw9HE7o

OMGOMG @ Aug 1st 2008 1:06PM

Seeing this music video reminded me of this classic Tarantino moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OJSm6OdPhs&feature=related

Freaking hilarious.

Heh {XBL: P4nic 4tt4ck} @ Aug 1st 2008 1:54PM

Fenix- Listening to that song while reading most of these comments has been highly entertaining. +1 for you.

xFenixKnightx @ Aug 1st 2008 2:32PM

LOL, no problem same here.

:D

Smoke_Dawg_187 @ Aug 1st 2008 9:45AM

Doh!

Brucie B @ Aug 1st 2008 9:45AM

OMG R U Ready 4 Fanboys Gone Wild

WRE: I own all 3! (4 if you count the DS.) @ Aug 1st 2008 11:00AM

Take a good look; this is the last time you'll be seeing these.

eminemd12obie @ Aug 1st 2008 9:46AM

AAA title? all upcoming jokes aside I have never heard of this game for it to be called a multiplatform AAA title... Bioshock, FF13, COD4, GTA4, etc. are AAA titles this is not (i have heard no hype or anything for this)... with that said I do think that M$ needs to get rid of that "royalty" fee they are talking about (did blue dragon pay that?) because even if this was only for the 360 why would we want a watered down version? if this shipped with 2 discs i wouldn't even consider getting it for more than $20

browntown @ Aug 1st 2008 9:51AM

Then u obviously have not been paying attention.

seefresh @ Aug 1st 2008 9:59AM

hahahahahahaha

SugarDaddy @ Aug 1st 2008 10:45AM

No, it's AAA. It's just that a lot of people don't care because it's a racing game -- like me.

seefresh @ Aug 1st 2008 11:02AM

@SugarDaddy

Uh, it's a bit more than a racing game.

Sheppy (of the Fidlious Clan of Wong) @ Aug 1st 2008 11:02AM

IS it a racing game, though? Trailer above should shooting.

TwEE @ Aug 1st 2008 11:27AM

Doesn't a game have to be out first before people can judge whether its AAA game or not?

Noshino @ Aug 1st 2008 11:43AM

TwEE,

Welcome to Joystiq

Shagittarius @ Aug 1st 2008 11:55AM

AAA titles are called that due to budget and intentions. AAA status has nothing to do with reception and reviews.

Misfit Toy @ Aug 1st 2008 12:06PM

Very interesting topic, but this is not the game to sway me. I will likely not be buying it anyways.

Pimliconite @ Aug 1st 2008 12:10PM

AAA refers to the effort the publisher is putting into producing and promoting a title based on their belief that it will succeed; it's carried over from the financial world (from investment ratings). Assassin's Creed was a AAA title, but it received B- reviews.

Pimliconite @ Aug 1st 2008 12:11PM

Or what Shag says. Stupid refresh.

McBrick @ Aug 1st 2008 9:47AM

Couldn't they just use a single HD-DVD (snicker)?

Neuromancer @ Aug 1st 2008 9:54AM

Assy

Is it just me or does this look pretty much like Fallout? I guess we should just be happy you're not a space marine.

Pimliconite @ Aug 1st 2008 10:09AM

Definitely looks more like Fallout than Fallout 3.

BioRebel @ Aug 1st 2008 11:28AM

While I don't think their whole royalty fee thing is really right. I really don't think anything coming from id will be 'AAA'. Nor do I think a true 'AAA' title would not be able to recoup fees for using multiple disks.

SugarDaddy @ Aug 1st 2008 11:43AM

True that. Isn't there an RPG for the 360 that has 3 discs? Does Carmack think his game will sell worse than that? And wouldn't the sales from the PC and PS3 also compensate for the losses on the royalties for the 360? The fact is that Carmack is a prima donna. I think JP in the movie Grandma's Boy was based on him.