18+ hour boss battles nixed from Final Fantasy XI
by Randy Nelson 
{ Aug 26th 2008 at 3:01AM }
"In response to these events, we have determined that further alterations are required to prevent such battles from exceeding a certain predetermined length of time," reads the latest community update from PlayOnline. What will these "alterations" consist of? "Included in the version update scheduled for early September will be modifications to the degree of difficulty of Pandemonium Warden (and associated pets), Absolute Virtue (and associated pets), and Jailer of Love. The aim of these changes is to create battles where a decisive outcome may be reached within a shorter period of time."
Square's statement also reaffirmed the company's continued "commitment to a healthy and wholesome game environment." You know, one where players aren't passing out while playing.
[Via Massively]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Pwnzerfaust @ Aug 26th 2008 3:17AM
It has become increasingly obvious that game developers don't think very highly of gamers' social lives. Or, you know, actual lives.
(01) @ Aug 26th 2008 12:23PM
I agree; if there was the ability to suspend the game, or save in the middle of the boss fight
(so you could return later) that would be one thing, but I don't even movie marathon for 18 hours. Brutal. also seems to fly in the face of "take a 15 min break every hour" warnings.
mikey @ Aug 26th 2008 3:18AM
only reason why they're doing anything was because of the bad press that up because of Pandemonium, Absolute virtue has had similar attempts. This was just SE covering its butt, so it wouldn't get sued
Thief @ Aug 26th 2008 3:18AM
All they had to do was toss a Phoenix Down on it...
T @ Aug 26th 2008 8:52AM
It's driving me crazy that I can't think of which boss this is. I know I've played it...but I can't remember which one.
Arnon @ Aug 26th 2008 8:58AM
Jailor of Love.
Thief @ Aug 26th 2008 10:28AM
I was actually thinking of Ghost Train from FFVI(FF3), but sure, Jailer or Muffin too.
LunarAura @ Aug 26th 2008 3:21AM
FFXI players, your lives just got better. Or something.
Xero @ Aug 26th 2008 3:26AM
They should have taken a cue from South Park when they tried to take this thing on.... they needed a montage.
Paulmichael @ Aug 26th 2008 3:29AM
18 hour bra? Could someone elaborate please? Oh and as for the article...To be that "hardcore" is nothing but moronic, though it does spark the memory of that glorious South Park episode, haha!
MatsJn @ Aug 26th 2008 4:41AM
Basicly, it's a bra designed to be comfortable so you can wear it for 18 hours. I'm a male so my expertise in the area of wearing bra's are rather limited (I'm more in the removal area) but from what I've been told most bra's often induce chafing and other general comfortableness after a prolonged period of wear.
Phil @ Aug 26th 2008 3:32AM
...Still no confirmation of a reworking for FFXI? No improvement on solo content?
Then I don't care. When they fix the solo content, call me. That's all that's keeping the game from being EPIC.
Kamizar @ Aug 26th 2008 3:40AM
I like the group play, but yes, no joke, and doing a lot of the game by yourself is staggeringly hard work...
Probot @ Aug 26th 2008 4:13AM
I think that was called FFXII.
juju187 @ Aug 26th 2008 8:15AM
Bluemage/ninja -> solo
Averna @ Aug 26th 2008 8:18AM
FFXI is not designed for solo play... at all. It was never trying to encourage solo play from the get go. There are other games that cater to that.
Personally I still think that FFXI has the best grouping mechanic of all of the MMOs in that at end game, EVERYONE knows how to group because you are forced to group from level 20+ (or there-abouts). You still get your idiots, but you'll get that anywhere.
You rarely charge off somewhere at lvl75 with some person that has never grouped before in their life *coughcoughWoWcough*
I commend FFXI for sticking to one aspect and doing it well. I stopped playing it because half my static stopped playing and I was back to waiting 5-6hours for a group again. Maybe they should steal Mythic's open group system, that thing rocks! If only people knew how to use it.
E.J. @ Aug 26th 2008 9:18AM
Dancer/ninja = solo.
Phil @ Aug 26th 2008 1:29PM
I'm sorry, did I say they needed to get rid of the other content?
And as a person who failed 3 classes because I was trying to reach level fifty, I'm sorry, you're wrong. FFXI DOES need Solo content if it ever hopes to get beyond the 500k playerbase it has.
FFXI is a fantastic game but let's be honest people, being FORCED to group for leveling, NEEDS TO NOT BE MANDATORY AT LEVEL TEN.
And there are STILL assholes in FFXI who have leveled up to 50 or 60+ and STILL suck at cooperation in the parties. It needs solo content, as it's IMPOSSIBLE to get anywhere on your own. And THAT ISN'T FUN. A game is supposed to have some ability to achieve fun and for a lot of players, they wish they could do SOME things on there own but let's face it, if your character isn't level 40 or higher, you're fucked when it comes to trying to accomplish something on your own.
The game needs better experience gain rates, for leveling, professions and such, make honor able to be checked beyond some fucking NPC who's dialogue is based on what honor level you are and increased item drop rates.
Gads @ Aug 26th 2008 2:08PM
"And as a person who failed 3 classes because I was trying to reach level fifty, I'm sorry, you're wrong."
LOL, now who's fault is that? Reminds me of a friend whose roommate in undergrad failed his class because he stayed up to 10am playing the MGS games. I've played FFXI since 2003 and never had a problem with balancing class and the game, because I knew my priorities. Also, reaching 50 is barely anything; I got 3 jobs to 75 (most people I know have gotten more by this point), one of them mostly by SOLOing the last couple levels. Granted, it was a BLU, but BLUs are good for that.
While I do agree that the forced partying is retarded at times, SE's tried over the years to add some small solo-able abilities. Originally there was only really BST if you wanted to avoid parties. Now there are more jobs that can handle it. I've been able to solo some exp as a BLU and DNC, and the new Campaign missions grant you exp for participating, so I often see lower levels running around in those.
Yes, there are noobs, but every game has those. I do agree about the need to fix drop-rates, however... that's one thing SE's fucking stupid about.
Phil @ Aug 26th 2008 3:33PM
And as soon as drop rates are increased, the game's intense/INCREDIBLY taxing grind that makes it hard to play GOES AWAY.
Seriously, this is the only reason I'm not playing. I can tolerate grind, but not grind that bad, at least not anymore...
Phil @ Aug 26th 2008 3:33PM
Correction, drop rates and experience rates.
Charlie_Six @ Aug 26th 2008 3:36AM
I don't blame Square at all, I blame the guild that played the 18 hours. Come on guys, use your heads. Listen to your bodies. You get tired.. stop playing.
I'll probably never understand the MMORPG audience. It's like they just like being addicted to these games and their carrot-and-stick mechanics. How they complain about these games being time sinks afterwards is beyond me.
Intentless @ Aug 26th 2008 7:41AM
My concern is how weak are these individuals that they couldn't handle playing beyond 18 hours... My friends and I have pulled off marathons of 24 + hours back in the day... Oh and when Halo 3 came out we played for almost 24 hours...
Tasogare @ Aug 26th 2008 7:48PM
Yes, in fact ENCOURAGE companies to continue creating unbeatable content for games that people pay monthly fees for...moron.
Learn about the topic before you comment. Your ideas of MMO's aren't even remotely based in fact.
Dovi @ Aug 26th 2008 3:41AM
"we reported on a Final Fantasy XII guild"
12? Don't you mean 11?
Christian @ Aug 26th 2008 12:50PM
That's what I was thinking, is it the group name or was that a typo since the game is XI not XII...
lordwindowlicker @ Aug 26th 2008 3:42AM
It has been said before, but I'll say it once again.. they could have stopped. It is a goddamned game people. This is NOT Square's fault. Plus, it's pretty badass that they added an enemy that difficult (see: extreme) into the game.
zkey14 @ Aug 26th 2008 4:18AM
It's not badass. It's pretty damned ridiculous. What's the point of adding a boss that requires 18 consecutive hours of a player's life to kill, other than poor game design and difficulty management?
And to the people saying it's the guild's fault; they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game's content. They have the right to get the most out of their money and enjoy everything the game has to offer. The fact that SE makes this impossible for their customers is -again- pretty damned absurd.
lordwindowlicker @ Aug 26th 2008 4:45AM
Actually, it IS badass. People who have graduated from the first grade all know, just because something is there.. doesn't mean you have to "go for it". Is it really so unreasonable that they add a boss that is undefeatable, or virtually undefeatable? Like I said before, perhaps they should have STOPPED PLAYING before near fatal levels of fatigue had set in.ww
Markusdragon @ Aug 26th 2008 7:26AM
Yes, but once you're 4 hours into a boss, you're not going to turn back; you've put 4 hours into it. By the time you've gotten 17 hours into the boss, continually thinking that you've already put X hours into the boss and it has to die sooner or later, the only thing left that's going to make you admit defeat and abandon those 17 hours of wasted life is passing out or being too ill to continue. This is further compounded by the fact that if you leave, you'd be letting the team down, so no-one wants to be the first to give up for fear of being seen as an unhelpful quitter.
Catears @ Aug 27th 2008 3:40AM
Did any of you READ the announcement by Square Enix? This includes YOU, Randy Nelson, article author.
They're not "nixing" the 18-hour battle. It was never meant to take that long in the first place. It says that the methods for weakening the monster were too difficult, leading players to engage it using "unanticipated methods" which led to "extended battle times."
In other words, the guild was fighting it incorrectly, and it was never intended in the first place to take that long.
Alex @ Aug 26th 2008 4:37AM
'Filled under PCs,PlayStation 2, Microsoft Xbox 360, RPGs, MMO'
Shouldn't that be Playstation 3?
Sorry if I'm being stupid, but I don't follow Final Fantasy
cryptomayhem @ Aug 26th 2008 6:59AM
FFXI is available on the PS2
juju187 @ Aug 26th 2008 8:24AM
anyone playing on ps3 is using ps2 version
Blank-Mage @ Aug 26th 2008 4:47AM
My only question is at what point did they realize it wasn't going to work? I mean, if I go at a boss for, say, 5 hours, and haven't won, I have to assume that my strategy isn't working. It's not like his regen is gonna wear off after 17 hours, ya know?
lordwindowlicker @ Aug 26th 2008 5:25AM
Exactly my point.
After 3 - 5 hours.. I would have gotten tired, hungry, bored. Lost interest in it altogether. Why is Square being attacked for these people playing a game for 18 hours straight?
This is really ****ing stupid.
juju187 @ Aug 26th 2008 8:26AM
there are bosses in the game you *WAIT* hours for, just to fight it for hours...
Tasogare @ Aug 26th 2008 8:13PM
Man lordwindowlicker you are really, REALLY off base. It's obvious that you don't play MMO's, but do you even have ANY understanding at all of what a game developer owes it's paying customers? How would you feel if you got to the end of a game and found out that the last boss was designed to be nearly unkillable or a puzzle that had no solution? How about if years after the games release people STILL hadn't completed it, and they release MORE content that is designed the same way. Is it the players fault for expecting to be able to finish something they have purchased?
You're right, just because it's there doesn't mean you HAVE to kill it, but that's a pretty rediculous outlook to force on people who are BUYING YOUR PRODUCT! First graders know what disappointment is, they know what it means to be unfair, and they know when they're getting screwed. This is what Square is doing, screwing every single one of its players by creating content that can't be completed. That is not an achievement to be lauded, especially since it's the only MMO I've ever seen that throws up the "Don't forget about the real world" message every time you log in to it.
Atomic Skull @ Aug 27th 2008 7:31AM
It was going to work..eventually. The boss is beatable, it just takes about 24-26 hours to do it.
Not impressed @ Aug 26th 2008 6:38AM
What a cop out!?
18hrs? So what? Human beings are quite capabale of working 18hrs. I do and my job involves a great deal of concentration. Another example you ask, how about doctors? So what, who cares that a bunch of sugar junkie teens can't manage 18 hrs?
These end game bosses are supposed to be legendary. The effort to defeat them, and the ingenuity used to do so should reflect the cache that comes from beating them.
Mediocre at best, from all parties involved.
Averna @ Aug 26th 2008 8:26AM
I agree on almost all aspects of what you just said, except that you compared FFXI to a job.
Sure we can all work for 18hrs in a row, but I would sure as hell want to get a cash reward for beating that boss if it took 18hours :P
That being said. I think that gimping the difficulty is a bad idea, but the time cutoff is. If SE put a cutoff in at 10 hours then we will all know that the LS was doing something wrong, which is a strong possibility seeing as it is an early attmept on it. FFXI is a hard game, and a hard boss in a hard game should be... really god damned hard. I can almost garantee that the guys who put the attempt in on him will not be happy about the news of the difficulty nerf... just means that their everest is less of an accomplishment. I felt the same way after the xp curve nerf back in the day.
Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Aug 26th 2008 5:17AM
They should simply abolish that crap - boss monsters - altogether.
Decent RPGs, like NWN1, do not have boss monsters: they simply time after time let you face an enemy 5+ levels above you. Works well and well integrates with the game. It's not some extraordinary crap - it normal monster, using the very same abilities you could yourself use later in game.
That usual console crap - it just too boring and often way too out of game itself. Just look how boss fights have ruined Metroid Prime 3: it could have been such a good exploration shooter - yet it plays like rehash of decade old platformer. Change game set to mushroom kingdom; replace figure of Samus with the Plumber - and nobody would notice any difference.
Yourself @ Aug 26th 2008 7:46AM
Wait, you're seriously suggesting that boss battles are abolished from gaming? That's kind of... an incredibly stupid idea.
First of all, from a creative standpoint, bosses often provide quite a spectacle and are just damn cool to look at (see: Odin Sphere, SOTC). Replacing them with an overpowered enemy just makes the game monotonous, and removes the visual reward of reaching a boss fight.
Second, they (when well-made) tax the player beyond what is normally required and demand a new type of strategy that isn't sufficient for the normal cannon-fodder, thus providing a unique experience at the end of every stage/area that keeps the game fresh, and at the same time, satisfying (Mega Man X anyone?).
And now I'm done playing into your little trap; obviously you never were seriously suggesting bosses are stupid. Had you been, you never would have mentioned MP3. I just wanted to talk about how much I love boss fights.
juju187 @ Aug 26th 2008 8:21AM
A mmorpg with no bosses?
Dinfin @ Aug 26th 2008 5:18AM
Ridiculous =harcore whatever its all relative and a matter of opinion.
Personally,I see anyone that has to practice for something as stupid.
Maverick Saturn @ Aug 26th 2008 7:49AM
Boss: Everyone agree that 18+ hour boss battles are too long? Lets answer our fans' cries
Staff: Agreed!
Boss: Okay, drop it to 17+ hours :)
juju187 @ Aug 26th 2008 8:18AM
square fix = Nerf this boss with crappy drops, Create a new boss of somewhat this difficulty.
Albanian_Killa @ Aug 26th 2008 8:40AM
Ah FFXI. I quit the game YEARS ago. Like 4 years ago, but yeah, it was one of those games that took a lot of time out of your life if you actually wanted to be a good player. This is why I quit. I used to be in a guild though that went through hard NMs an I remember some bosses were damn long to kill, like 20min - 1 hour and I thought that was long. 18 hours is just crazy.
arkanaloth @ Aug 26th 2008 8:59AM
"The aim of these changes is to create battles where a decisive outcome may be reached within a shorter period of time."
translation: These bosses will be made so significantly harder that your entire team will get butt-whipped in seconds, this way we may convey a similar sensation of hopelessness one gets when they try to solo.
Ashlar @ Aug 26th 2008 9:14AM
I've got to mention some things about this that no one seems to know/have heard yet:
This boss, the Pandemonium Warden, is the final boss in a string of NMs (Notorious Monsters..). To even get to him, you must kill multiple other NMs along 3 seperate 'paths'. Once you've killed one NM, you obtain an item to fight the next along the path. To have gotten to the PW you would have had to have already fought 18 (?-rough calculation) other battles. This luckily would have been over a long time period not 1 day. Losing to PW means you have to do all those fights again just to be able to have another shot at him.
This battle everyone is talking about was one of the first attempts on the PW on any of the games servers. Of course it wasnt easy, no one knew anything about the PW before this fight. Could it have been killed easier? Probably... but without a few more attempts (or preferably some NPC/quests to give hints about weaknesses) no one would know.
As to why not stop after X hours? They thought they were actually doing good... They'd beat the bastard down and he'd change shapes. They'd kill that form and he'd come back and then change forms again. Once they killed that form he'd change forms again. Being the first try, they had no idea how many forms he would change into before it was his final form...
"alterations are required to prevent such battles from exceeding a certain predetermined length of time" - This is believed to mean that they will add a 'Rage' effect to these NMs. Basically once they've been popped they will behave normally until X time. Once that time passes they will 'roid out and slaughter everyone.