Engineer: Metallica mix better in Guitar Hero than on CD
What's the culprit? Shepherd blames the "Loudness Wars," which have engineers sacrificing audio quality in favor of a louder-sounding final product. We blame our mad Guitar Hero skills have somehow, through years of digital instrument manipulation, made us better than Metallica. It's a proud day.
[Via Music Radar]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
MC Double Def DP @ Sep 17th 2008 10:23AM
Robes are so metal! \m/ !!!
StrangeBum @ Sep 17th 2008 10:46AM
Robes and crossing your legs like a woman.
Does he have no balls?
/it's Lars
//of course he doesn't
AwesomeTown @ Sep 17th 2008 10:26AM
I believe it. Volume varies way too much on CDs. I'm curious to know at what volume the quality is at its peak. Some of my older CDs are really low. I'm guessing the majority try to get it right, or at least strike a balance. This is metal we are talking about, and I'm sure they try to get as loud as possible.
IMO, if you want it loud and sound good, get good speakers.
Jack of No Trades 85 @ Sep 17th 2008 10:30AM
"This is metal we are talking about"
Metallica IS NOT Metal!!!
AwesomeTown @ Sep 17th 2008 10:40AM
Sorry about that, I guess I hit a nerve. I apologize for the distress I caused you.
Xoviet chiK @ Sep 17th 2008 10:50AM
Metallica are bit more well known for their innovations in smooth jazz and trip-hop.
Just call my name and I'll hear you scream... *Alto Sax Solo*
MC Double Def DP @ Sep 17th 2008 11:06AM
I'm not a Metallica fan at all but what genre would you put them in, Jack? Not all bands can be Immortal.
Orangecoke @ Sep 17th 2008 11:13AM
Metallica is metal, don't be a goof.
Einhanderkiller @ Sep 17th 2008 11:16AM
Thrash metal, to be specific.
brad77 @ Sep 17th 2008 12:39PM
@AwesomeTown: No top-shelf speaker is capable of bringing back what has been removed by dynamic range compression. Depending on the method used, it either crushes the waveform or lops off the top and/or bottom end of it, causing the clipping people are hearing.
Good speakers can't fix that. In fact, they make the problem more pronounced.
A couple good Wikipedia articles on the subject:
http://tinyurl.com/q4vf6
http://tinyurl.com/v76kw
AwesomeTown @ Sep 17th 2008 12:51PM
@brad77
Yea, you are right. I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I typed that there.
I'm no audiophile, but at least I'd like to know my music isn't degraded.
xGeneral DEATHx @ Sep 17th 2008 1:06PM
Metallica may not have the heavy depth and complex time signatures of death metal/prog metal/speed metal like they used to have in their younger days, but I wouldn't say they're not "metal". Awesometown is correct here. Even I think they've leaned more toward heavy rock since Load, but they're still classified the world over as a metal band, considering they were a driving force behind bringing much of metal's influence to America in the early eighties.
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Sep 17th 2008 1:33PM
@ poster above me...
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? without metallica there would not be Metal. Metallica was formed as a backlash against all the hair "metal" that was on the radio. They wanted music that sounds like you were pissed off at the world and everyone thats in it. thats what metal is about. without metallica you wouldn't have megadeth antrhax, slayer, dragonforce, etc... METALLICA IS METAL INCARNATE. They are the purest form of metal. Granted, after cliff died they went downhill, but with the release of Death Magnetic Metallica has taken a step in the right direction. Now what I'm about to say is nearly sac-religious. But: St. Anger Was more like old-metallica than Death Magnetic. The Reason why I say it is because, it had killer riffs, and a fast pace. now, what they fucked up with is they (meaning lars) decided that they (meaning lars) were bored with traditional guitar solos. so, they (meaning lars and james) wrote songs without guitar solos. now than all they have to do is re-record St. Anger put in guitar solos, get a better mix and BAM! awesome album, better than death magnetic. And a template for future albums. Death Magnetic, Was a great album, but they should have kept Death is not the end as one of the songs, instead of just stealing the opening bass line.
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Sep 17th 2008 1:37PM
@ poster above me...
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? without metallica there would not be Metal. Metallica was formed as a backlash against all the hair "metal" that was on the radio. They wanted music that sounds like you were pissed off at the world and everyone thats in it. thats what metal is about. without metallica you wouldn't have megadeth antrhax, slayer, dragonforce, etc... METALLICA IS METAL INCARNATE. They are the purest form of metal. Granted, after cliff died they went downhill, but with the release of Death Magnetic Metallica has taken a step in the right direction. Now what I'm about to say is nearly sac-religious. But: St. Anger Was more like old-metallica than Death Magnetic. The Reason why I say it is because, it had killer riffs, and a fast pace. now, what they fucked up with is they (meaning lars) decided that they (meaning lars) were bored with traditional guitar solos. so, they (meaning lars and james) wrote songs without guitar solos. now than all they have to do is re-record St. Anger put in guitar solos, get a better mix and BAM! awesome album, better than death magnetic. And a template for future albums. Death Magnetic, Was a great album, but they should have kept Death is not the end as one of the songs, instead of just stealing the opening bass line.
J.Goodwin @ Sep 17th 2008 2:01PM
Metallica never sounds good. However, CDs today are indeed mastered with a lot of compression so that they can get more loudness out of the format. It's a very FM friendly way to do things, and given that everyone is listening to everything on headphones now instead of a decent set of speakers, and the by-definition limited dynamic range of CD, it's what is done now.
The proper answer was either SACD or DVD-A, but the lovely lossless or near-lossless 48-192k 24bit audio (optionally in multi-channel) that consoles are spitting out these days is the next best thing.
It's kind of funny because I was just thinking about this very subject playing Rock Band.
Darkbhudda @ Sep 17th 2008 10:28AM
No surprise, games are about clarity, music is about a certain sound.
Some engineers push the mixers to their absolute limits and beyond to get a certain sound out of them. One mixer, Spirit was the brand, was well known for engineers blowing it up for pushing the levels too high because at their peak they performed their best.
The Artist formally known as Jesus @ Sep 17th 2008 10:29AM
How high? Up to 11?
Tiptup300 @ Sep 17th 2008 11:13AM
...
...
These ones go to eleven.
J.Goodwin @ Sep 17th 2008 2:02PM
Pushing it to eleven is pretty much correct in this case. Basically, they push the top to 11, and now the bottom is 2. That's dynamic range compression in a nutshell.
Boucaner @ Sep 17th 2008 10:34AM
Do you realize that at any given time, 1/3 of the content on Joystiq is about Rock Band/Guitar Hero/Rhythm Game?
Boffo the Sock @ Sep 17th 2008 10:39AM
I'd be interested in seeing the numbers you used to come up with that figure. Surely you didn't pull it out of your ass.
Shagittarius @ Sep 17th 2008 11:41AM
and 1/3 of all the posts on said topics are complaining about that...
Flicky @ Sep 17th 2008 10:36AM
"Metallica IS NOT Metal!!!"
METALLICA = METAL LIke = METAL LIte ?
copa @ Sep 17th 2008 10:38AM
This is astonishing considering how heavily compressed Guitar Hero/Rock Band tracks are.
What is the file size on the game tracks? 150 MB?
How hard do you have to screw up the engineering process to introduce digital artifacting on the CD tracks that aren't present on files compressed to 25% of the original size?
Rollins @ Sep 17th 2008 10:49AM
It doesn't really have anything to do with the file size compression. It has everything to do with them sacrificing quality for loudness when they mixed the album. Death Magnetic has an extremely compressed (or overproduced) sound, and I thought I heard a decent amount of digital clipping.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_level_compression for an explanation of audio compression - basically, it's when the dynamics (highs and lows) are adjusted in volume so that the volume level is uniform, resulting in a "louder" sound.
Although I think it's a much better album than anything Metallica's done post-Black Album, the mixing leaves much to be desired.
Shagittarius @ Sep 17th 2008 11:43AM
"Although I think it's a much better album than anything Metallica's done post-And Justice for All..."
I fixed that 4 U.
Heh @ Sep 17th 2008 12:09PM
"Although I think it's a much better album than anything Metallica's done that didn't involve stealing Dave's riffs."
Shag, how could you let that one get through?
laser123454321 @ Sep 17th 2008 10:56AM
I think also a good read would be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
Thats exactly what I've seen with the new album.
dark_inchworm @ Sep 17th 2008 11:02AM
Much better than the image in the post:
http://i38.tinypic.com/29ykt9g.jpg
And yes, it is safe.
xGeneral DEATHx @ Sep 17th 2008 1:10PM
I just pissed myself laughing.
You're picking up the drycleaning tab.
Egon Pax @ Sep 17th 2008 2:15PM
Hilarious, good sir.
brad77 @ Sep 17th 2008 5:49PM
I wish I could click the "+" on your comment more than once! "One" will never sound the same again.
Neebs @ Sep 17th 2008 11:13AM
As an audiophile, I do hate the loudness war.
KeenCommander @ Sep 17th 2008 2:03PM
As a music critic and (shitty) musician, I hate audiophiles. Go take your FLAC and go back under a rock.
Neebs @ Sep 17th 2008 2:11PM
As a fellow music critic and shitty musician, I want to know how you can stand lossy files and crap quality.
serotoninzero @ Sep 17th 2008 3:49PM
I'm with Neebs on this one.. Not to mention you're arguing about a different kind of compression, KeenCommander. People have to understand this isnt the way the file is compressed, it's the way the audio is compressed.
Hit a bass drum as hard as you can, now hit a triangle as light as you can. Now make them the same loudness on your track and you're on your way. In the meantime, make every fucking thing in your song the same. And mix it high.
I hate the loudness war. I collect vinyl, and I love them, but even they are being affected some today in the same way which sucks, but most of them aren't.
brad77 @ Sep 17th 2008 5:57PM
@Keen: Read this:
http://tinyurl.com/q4vf6
http://tinyurl.com/v76kw
We're not talking about data compression. FLAC, MP3, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, etc. don't matter much here when the dynamic range of the CD it's ripped from is crushed to hell.
deABREU @ Sep 17th 2008 11:15AM
not that it makes much difference, listening to a better mix of bad songs...
Tony Bowman @ Sep 17th 2008 11:46AM
the "loudness wars" have really hurt a lot of great records. :(
not that i'm equating "death magnetic" with great, mind you.
ark_keeper @ Sep 17th 2008 11:50AM
I've definitely noticed this, it sounds much better on my surround sound than the cd. The CD makes all my speakers sound like they are blown or close to it, more noticeable at lower volumes.
FOXHOUND @ Sep 17th 2008 12:09PM
Cool, I can't wait to download it. ;D
Godmil @ Sep 17th 2008 12:42PM
I was just listening to the Album on my ipod, I couldn't work out if the clipping was on my headphones or itunes messed up the convertion... To think the CD was actually released with this poor a mix is shocking.
Donald @ Sep 17th 2008 12:55PM
The only format you need to worry about Metallica music is mp3, AMIRITE??
Deaddy @ Sep 17th 2008 1:11PM
That loudness war is a real problem, they totally screw things up for no reason. I don't think they're ever going to reverse it at this rate. Clipping sucks.
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Sep 17th 2008 1:38PM
@ poster above me...
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? without metallica there would not be Metal. Metallica was formed as a backlash against all the hair "metal" that was on the radio. They wanted music that sounds like you were pissed off at the world and everyone thats in it. thats what metal is about. without metallica you wouldn't have megadeth antrhax, slayer, dragonforce, etc... METALLICA IS METAL INCARNATE. They are the purest form of metal. Granted, after cliff died they went downhill, but with the release of Death Magnetic Metallica has taken a step in the right direction. Now what I'm about to say is nearly sac-religious. But: St. Anger Was more like old-metallica than Death Magnetic. The Reason why I say it is because, it had killer riffs, and a fast pace. now, what they fucked up with is they (meaning lars) decided that they (meaning lars) were bored with traditional guitar solos. so, they (meaning lars and james) wrote songs without guitar solos. now than all they have to do is re-record St. Anger put in guitar solos, get a better mix and BAM! awesome album, better than death magnetic. And a template for future albums. Death Magnetic, Was a great album, but they should have kept Death is not the end as one of the songs, instead of just stealing the opening bass line.
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Sep 17th 2008 1:38PM
it takes too long to post... sorry about the tripple post.
delmonte3161 @ Sep 17th 2008 2:37PM
To captain underpants and the bringdown gang:
Metallica was formed BEFORE hair bands became popular. If you want to create baseless facts, perhaps you could say they were formed as an answer to the collapse of disco. At least you'd have the era correct (1981)... But you probably weren't born yet.
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Sep 18th 2008 4:27PM
you are correct, I should have said Glam/arena rock. But, generally speaking metallica was a backlash against pop music of that era.
Mike @ Sep 17th 2008 3:36PM
It's all about DYNAMIC RANGE folks. Just watch this video and you'll understand. (live music is the only way you can hear that 'punch' anymore.) :(
http://tinyurl.com/3njzxz
z @ Sep 17th 2008 4:49PM
This is funny because it's something that us audio guys have been complaining about for over a decade now, and nobody cared. Now that it's in a popular video game, everyone cares. This is nothing new at all, and you people listening to mainstream music wouldn't even know the difference unless pointed out to you. I bet many of you think songs sound awesome on the radio, but guess what? Radio stations have their own set of outbound compressors that further crush audio signals and cause pumping. It's unbearable for me to listen to, but your average listener won't complain.
And just so you know, it's the record labels who compare cuts to other CDs and say "...this isn't as loud as LIИKIИ PARK—make it louder." The engineers just do as they're told. They know it sucks, they aren't idiots. It's a mastering engineer's job to hear grass growing, but to make money, they have to follow orders from people who don't know shit about fuck. Nothing new under the sun.
Ha...And now that I think about it, Ted mastered LIИKIИ PARK's albums, too (but I was just picking a random example).