From Current TV, we're happy to bring you that rarest of delights: Reporting on gaming from a non-gaming outlet that's reasoned, competent and (wonder of wonders) well-researched. The story of GayGamer is told by those who breathe life into the site, showing not only why they're an important part of gaming culture, but what drove them to stick together in the first place. You can find it right after the jump.
The only downside is that the section on homophobia makes the community look so bad; but honestly, it's only bashing those of us that deserve it. ... You know what? We're kicking homophobes out of "us." We're officially making them "them." Sorry guys. Leave your fake guitars with Shelia on the way out.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
John Boy @ Sep 24th 2008 8:51AM
Another reason why I love Joystiq so much.
Thanks ppls.
=]
finaldarklord @ Sep 24th 2008 9:59AM
Holy shit! There are assholes on the internets?! Stop the presses!
I'm all for sites like gaygamer putting up something of a sanctuary for persecuted people, but there is no way in hell to stop this shit permanantly. At the end of the day, the vast majority of human beings are ignorant douchebags, and the internets have given them all a voice.
Thats just reality.
speist @ Sep 24th 2008 12:29PM
i agree with final dark lord but want to add.
I just want to ask...is this really a problem??? People just use the internet as an anonymous rant. Thats the best part about the internet, you can blow up about something and noone can see you.
Plus gaming is just the worst with derogatory terms for same reasons and when you die you aren't gonna say "darn it, he is good"
itll come out as "that was f'n g**"
Delgado @ Sep 24th 2008 1:22PM
Why are you people voting speist up?
This is why things like this continue to happen - people perpetuating things themselves because "oh well, it can't change." This is why people like Bush are in office, this is why third world countries are turned a blind eye to, why racism and bigotry continue, and sadly why Obama will probably not win. If you care and actually make a conscientious effort, things change.
So, instead of saying "that is f*ing g*y," say "that is f*ing lame." Gay is not synonymous with lame.
dwhite @ Sep 24th 2008 1:40PM
I agree that the article is a very informative read. We often forget that the barrier and insulation provided by the internet can cause people to act in ways that could be regarded as insensitive and offensive to others and that most people do not conduct themselves in such ways during day to day activities such as work or social situations. I am almost embarrassed to say that I often do not even realize that I may be offending someone on XBL when playing. I could be defensive and make the excuse that I use the word "gay" as a term expressing extreme misfortune or to describe a negative unforseen occurence rather than as a slur against someone's life style choice. Perhaps it is just another word that my life style choice or ethnicity will prevent me from using in gaming, conversation, and song lyrics. If that is the case then I apologize for not being politcally correct on the subject. However, I do have a cynical side that resents the idea of everyone getting offended over everything. We live in the land of the offended where everyone breaks off into special groups that defend themselves from every other group and raise all kinds of hell over issues, that pardon my subjective opinion, are not that important in the great scheme of things. I game for entertainment and relaxation. It's a stress breaker that removes me from the constant issues I have to deal with in the day to day. I could care less what someone calls me or says over the internet. I have the power to remove myself from the situation. In conclusion, my opinion means absolutely nothing (following my own argument) but I offer it up any way and you can do with it what you like. P.S.> The Wii is gay and 90% of the games on it are shit and gay.
Brian @ Sep 24th 2008 6:19PM
"I could be defensive and make the excuse that I use the word "gay" as a term expressing extreme misfortune or to describe a negative unforseen occurence rather than as a slur against someone's life style choice."
Welcome to the "That's exactly the problem" party. The problem is that you're using a label of a specific group of people to mean "extreme misfortune." That's not what any version of "gay" means. Can you explain why you'd use it in a negative context, given that gay literally means happy? You're just being ironic I guess. I'm sure you have some excuse.
You could be defensive and say that you mean "gay" in some crazy context that makes it acceptable to you. Fine. How did you magically come up with THAT label, by the way?
arkweld @ Sep 24th 2008 8:53AM
you know what's wrong with the vast majority of online games?
The people who play.
There should be a license to play online that requires you to take a test and can be rescinded at any time for being a douche.
theturtle363 @ Sep 24th 2008 9:31AM
they should just do that for living
SugarDaddy @ Sep 24th 2008 10:53AM
They should do that for giving birth. It's been said before. But if you need a license to drive... if you need a license to buy a gun... if you need a license to put an addition on your house (a permit actually)... if you need a license to go freshwater fishing... Why the hell can any asshole be allowed to raise a child?
(I recognize the obvious impossibility of implementing such a policy, but the concept is a puzzler.)
Maverick Saturn @ Sep 24th 2008 11:12AM
Lol, agreed.
BananaBoat @ Sep 24th 2008 11:23AM
They should put a boot on every unfit mothers vagina.
It works for stopping people with too many parking tickets, so I'll bet it can work for helping to speed up natural selection.
Maverick Saturn @ Sep 24th 2008 11:30AM
Sorry lady, I gotta clamp your vagina, if you want the clamp off, you're gunna have to pay a fine and sign a contract stating you will look after any future kids properly.
sh4rKb8 @ Sep 24th 2008 11:44AM
And their themesong: http://www.thesongoftheday.com/index.cgi?_w=1&_d=081307
McWeen @ Sep 24th 2008 8:56AM
Very interesting view.
RonaldoMoon @ Sep 24th 2008 8:57AM
The only way that our gaming "culture" will change is for us to make it change. Let's start really dogging all of the homophobes and racists...make them feel like the douche bags that they are. We have to make it to where no one thinks it's "cool" to be hateful.
Kudos to Joystiq, gaygamer, current.tv for tackling this issue.
Erluti @ Sep 24th 2008 9:07AM
Yeah, let's call them "gay" until they stop!
Phinehas @ Sep 24th 2008 11:30AM
"We have to make it to where no one thinks it's "cool" to be hateful."
...except toward all those homophobes and racists, right? Wait, now I'm confused. So, is it cool to hate or not?
dark_inchworm @ Sep 24th 2008 8:59AM
in before "that's so gay"
maybe not depending on the cooperation of the comments
dark_inchworm @ Sep 24th 2008 9:00AM
On a different note... the Piggly Wiggly shirt is awesome.
:)
beoba @ Sep 24th 2008 9:02AM
thats so bi
Shmil (Mr ESC Liberation Front) @ Sep 24th 2008 9:13AM
He's big on the Pig.
also, the "in before thats so gay" is just as bad as saying thats so gay
snarfoogle @ Sep 24th 2008 11:20AM
that's so hetero
colin @ Sep 24th 2008 8:55PM
http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/gay-called-demotivational-poster.jpg
ThornedVenom (Harley Quinn Defense Force) @ Sep 24th 2008 10:54PM
That's so happy. =)
Gay = Happy.
whistlepig @ Sep 24th 2008 9:05AM
i was wondering who stole my piggly wiggly shirt
cuso26 @ Sep 24th 2008 9:05AM
In the end, does it really matter what your sexual orientation is in an online game? It's not like next to the scoreboard is says (Player1: 50 kills, Dominated! Orientation: Gay). As such it shouldn't play a part and really is a non-topic if you ask me.
The overall problem described here is one prevalent in society at large, not just online gaming. You have to get it at the source - intolerant parents.
Easo @ Sep 24th 2008 1:24PM
"(Player1: 50 kills, Dominated! Orientation: Gay)."
If only.
Im not gay, but if someone kicked my ass, and that was displayed on the final screen I just may shit myself laughing.
On a side note: I watched the gaygamer videos, and he always gives himself a name that indicates his sexuality (which he has already established as being irrelevant). So why do it? You would get the same thing for naming yourself princessgurl or blackdude1 or anything that indicates that you are not part of the straight white male majority. Thats life, deal with it.
josh @ Sep 24th 2008 4:01PM
"You would get the same thing for naming yourself princessgurl or blackdude1 or anything that indicates that you are not part of the straight white male majority. Thats life, deal with it."
and that is okay? why should women (half of the world) or minorities be picked on for just being who they are?
answer: they shouldn't be.
Ryan P. @ Sep 24th 2008 9:19AM
Thanks to Joystick for even posting this.
Especially about taking the homophobs out of 'us'.
These guys think gays aren't playing the same things they are and that online shooters or forums and blogs are there own territory.
One factor is some guys don't get that gay guys...being guys, grow up playing the same video games aimed at guys before anyone knows that they are gay. And therefore develop the same taste for games.
I know the gender gap in games is beginning to
close, but it's not like I was playing Hello-kitty in middle school.(I'm gay) All my gay friends have at least a PS2 or something more current.
Duke @ Sep 24th 2008 11:22AM
I have been playing online games for a long long time now, and I don't recall ever thinking or caring about the sexual orientation of another player. I always figured that people say someone is gay as an insult, thinking that it would make a hetro person upset because they are insecure. Its lame, but I never thought people were doing it as an actual attack against gay people. Maybe the immature ones do and I just didn't get it - since it makes no sense.
Either way, I find it pretty sad that anyone actually cares whether another player is gay or straight when playing a game. How the hell does it effect anything.
DEEZNUTZ @ Sep 24th 2008 12:34PM
So clarify why would you be offended if you went into a game and someone called you gay, if you are?
And if you are looking for other gay gamers, announcing you're gay in some random game isn't the best way of going about it. You're simply asking for it and waiting for the comments you know are to follow.
Makes no sense. Why not just game. Why do you want to game with gays, like it's different. Like me looking to game with whites only, or latinos only, or accountants only. Just game. You don't like the a-holes in the party, leave and move on. Seems rather simple to me.
And why would you need "visibility" XBL? That makes no sense. You have other forums for expressing your pride and all. XBL should be left for gaming, not expressing your sexual preference. And if you choose to advertise it, then be prepared for the obvious comments my friend. You're just asking for it.
Ryan P. @ Sep 24th 2008 12:44PM
Read the whole thread before responding DEEZNUT.
I answered your specific complaints in response to a Bananboat post below.
BananaBoat @ Sep 24th 2008 9:21AM
*Steps on the land mine*
Oh boy...where to start..."The problem with anonymity on the web is that everyone is anonymous" umm...well, it depends on how you look at it. There are places you can go, and groups you can join, that are moderated, like Gaygamer, if you want to avoid the hate speech that is so prevalent on Xbox Live (and elsewhere). The problem with non-anonymity though, and I'm sure many of my fellow former (or current) MMO players can attest to this, is that if you put people in charge of other people, you are basically leaving the majority at the mercy of a moderator who may or may not be interested in fairness. I've seen too many guilds, forums, IRC channels, etc, destroyed by a moderating asshat on a power trip. I can't even begin to imagine an entire web designed on the same principal. When the vocal minority gets to decide what is right for the silent majority, the silent majority are the only ones who get screwed.
Even though I'm only a second year university student, I game almost exclusively with a group that is basically designed for those 30 and over. Why? I suppose because I feel too old to play with 13 year old kids that scream racial slurs and profanity at the top of their lungs. None of the racial slurs apply to me, so I guess I can't say that I really know how it feels to be on the receiving end, but I think it's all up to you to realize that a 13 year old shouldn't be able to bother you with words over the internet. 90% of the garbage that kids spew over the internet (and I know it's not just kids doing it, but the vast majority are at the very least "immature") isn't even directed at anybody in particular. I've been called the N word about ten million times despite not being black, and I've been called gay fifty million times despite being straight. Never once did I take it as some sort of personal attack.
That video is going to be used forever, despite it being a set up. I can't remember exactly, but I think the guy in question made his Xbox Live gamertag something like "GayGuy" or "Gaymer" or something of the sort. It paints a picture that Xbox Live is filled with constant profanity and gay bashing, when in reality, it's only the occasional foul mouthed douche (or group of douches, more often). If I were to name myself "IHateHalo" and then play Halo on Xbox Live, I'd expect to get trashed as well. It's not a fair depiction when you are asking for it.
Personally I couldn't care less if someone is gay, straight, bi, celibate, or completely asexual. I can't agree with any group that tries to segregate itself, and then claims themselves as victims. If you aren't white, male, and straight anymore it seems as if you can claim that you are at least some sort of victim. You are only as big a victim as you allow yourself to be. Human nature isn't going to change because you create a website.
Oh well, whatever, at least we don't have Furrygamer.com, lolicongamer.com, etc.....yet. (seriously)
AwesomeTown @ Sep 24th 2008 9:46AM
It's not about letting 13 year old kids that are spewing hate get to you, it's about them growing up (hell, a lot of these douches are probably already grown up) thinking it is OK to say and think the way they do. The fact that some may just say shit but not really truly hate gays, is still wrong and it needs to change.
The sad part is another anonymous person online is not going to change an anonymous persons way of thinking. It take friends and family to do that, especially parents. But if that's not happening (and of course it isn't), there needs to be way more accountability for actions online, Xbox live or anywhere else.
crono @ Sep 24th 2008 10:29AM
Nice post. But prepare for the flames.
BananaBoat @ Sep 24th 2008 10:02AM
Accountability on the internet would be like playing whack a mole. The argument that all ills can be fixed if only parents were better, is flawed. Human nature dictates that the "others" are to be berated for no other reason than because they are different. This hasn't changed in thousands of years of western civilization, and it's not going to change because someone decides that more regulation is needed. It's unjust, but it's the way things are, and the way things have always been. If there is any saving grace in the matter, it's that the title "other" falls to different groups of people every now and then.
Unfortunately, human nature also dictates that almost noone can be trusted in a supervisory role. More often than not, "follow the rules" turns into "agree with me, or get out". Personally, I'd rather follow the rules myself, and ignore those that don't, than be subject to some sort of internet watchdog authority with power over the content of my Xbox Live voice chat, or my various forum posts.
The basic principal of free speech is that people are going to say all sorts of crap that you don't agree with, and that you find offensive, but that they have a right to say it, as do you have the right to object and to say whatever you want.
Metal_Gear @ Sep 24th 2008 10:04AM
Thats how I see it too, dont start a game telling everyone your gay, or black. It isn't that you should hide it, but I am not going to start a game and say:
"Hi, I'm a male, white, straight, english, lets all play a game together and try to get along, ok?"
In the 21st centry, I dare say 90% of people couldn't give a flying toot that your gay or whatever but announceing it isn't changing our lifes, if is just giving the moronic 10% something to scream at you. Why dont you walk up to that thug with a knife and tell him that you have an expensive iPhone on you? Or tell Hitler that your Jewish?
i rike chirri dawgs @ Sep 25th 2008 6:41PM
this was very well written my freind, as a black gamer, i hear the n word daily it doesnt bother me, first of all i dont advertise myself as ''hey guys im hear to merc all of you!!, by the way im african american!!!'' noone cares about your race or sex online noone. when you create 'gay gamer '' then complain that you get harassed, you have created situation where you made your self a victim.
i guess you could almost say these guys have socially engineered some of thier problems
Brian @ Sep 24th 2008 10:56AM
I really really disagree with the "anonymity does this to everyone" claim. I've been playing Counter-Strike for years, and there is a big trend toward servers that ban for racist remarks. Young kids come in for a few minutes, they start with their ridiculous rants, and they're banned (and hopefully learn that words have meaning).
Unfortunately, these same people who claim to be so forward-thinking re: racism, are just as ignorant as anyone else when it comes to homosexuality. Why the double standard? THAT'S the problem. We readily acknowledge that racism is bad, but why are we slower to ban for homophobia?
Anonymity does crazy things to people, sure, but you're still YOU when you're on the internet.
Brian @ Sep 24th 2008 10:56AM
"I can't agree with any group that tries to segregate itself, and then claims themselves as victims."
Oh that was the other thing. You're acting like "being gay" is equivalent to segregating yourself. Nice. We're all gamers, we all want to play games. That's integrating, not segregating. Why should certain groups of people (mostly black and gay people) be the butt of every gaming joke? Other posters after you have made a similar claim. "Just don't tell people who/what you are, and you'll be fine." Huh? The whole point is that it SHOULDN'T MATTER, not that they shouldn't know!
This part of your post probably said something you don't intend. Basically you're saying that it's ok to be racist, the problem is that other people see themselves as different. Welcome to the mindset preceding every genocide.
crono @ Sep 24th 2008 12:00PM
He didn't say being gay segregates yourself. He implied that being gay and then only partiipating in communities like "gaygamer" segregates yourself, in the same way as being black and only eating at the "black table" in school is self segregation.
Erluti @ Sep 24th 2008 11:14AM
wow, you missed it brian.
The point is that if you don't want your sexuality to be a factor, don't bring it up.
It's a basic advertising principle. McDonald's doesn't say "The Big Mac, too many grams of fat to count!" and does say "McNuggets now with all white meat!" Why? Because they don't want you to think about fat in a big mac, so they don't bring it up. They DO want you to think about all white meat in the chicken, so they bring it up.
Same reason you would make your gamertag "xxX narut0 Xxx" is so that people would know you like to align yourself with Naruto.
So if you want people to know your gay/black/balloonist/whatever, put it in your gamer tag and know that people who care (for good or ill) will talk to you about it since you advertised it.
BananaBoat @ Sep 24th 2008 11:15AM
I'm saying that it's pointless to segregate yourself period, not that being gay is the same thing as segregation. Segregation of this kind isn't bad, and I actively segregate myself from the bulk of Xbox Live users on a daily basis (not because of my sexual orientation, but because one man can only hear the N word so many times per day before getting agitated). The problem is when you segregate, and then you act like everyone that isn't with you, is against you, and that you are on some bizarre moral high ground. It's the same at the girl gamer sites. Men are allowed, sure, but it's like they are second class citizens.
I'll never understand how some people can be so self absorbed that they believe anyone, anywhere, cares about their sexual orientation, or their gender, when they are anonymous over the internet. Maybe if you were a girl, with pictures of yourself in a skimpy outfit posted, etc, then someone would care, but when you are anonymous? How can you take insults personally when neither you nor the person insulting you has any idea who you are? It's mind boggling.
People can call me whatever they want because at the end of the day, the only physical manifestation of my identity is a Mudkip wearing a Mario hat. You can't fight a mudkip wearing a mario hat. Trust me, I've tried. Damn thing casts water cannon with fire damage every time.
AwesomeTown @ Sep 24th 2008 11:20AM
The thing about Xbox Live is that it is a private service from Microsoft. It is not public domain. If people are in it saying hateful comments, and it is reducing the enjoyment of the service to other people, then yes, I believe there should be accountability. You can't go into a restaurant and start yelling and cause a scene and expect people to want to go into said restaurant to eat. If not extreme accountability like banning, maybe at least they can create more specified groups on that service so that you randomly and easily jump into a game and play with only they type of people you want to play with. Something broader then say a big friends list.
And yea, I understand you guys about not having to jump right in and tell everyone your gay. But it's few and far between when I go into a random game in Halo and not year some hateful stuff even if they have no idea who they are talking to.
Haggard (Mr.ESC resurrection force) @ Sep 24th 2008 11:25AM
You guys need to summarise more.
Obie @ Sep 24th 2008 11:30AM
Banana, you are a good, smart guy...but seriously....summarize please. ;)
Brian @ Sep 24th 2008 11:36AM
"The point is that if you don't want your sexuality to be a factor, don't bring it up."
You're acting like the reason these comments come up on Live is because someone said "hey everyone, I'm gay!" You're also implying that everyone who gets offended by something an "anonymous" person says is overreacting. Well, your mom's a whore, ok?
Gamers have created an atmosphere where certain tags would definitely create a huge response online, and others wouldn't. All that aside, the comments you hear in the video are exactly what you'd hear in any game, regardless of someone's name. Advertising has NOTHING to do with this, because the offended gamers never advertised shit. Go into a game with the name "DethKiller" or whatever, and you'll hear the same crap. I've been hearing it for years, and my name is "McPoopers".
Anyway, I'm not sure we watched the same video.
BananaBoat @ Sep 24th 2008 11:36AM
@awesometown - I absolutely agree that it would be nice if they could, in theory, clamp down on the problem. The only issue with that is that there is no way in hell that they can store the conversations of millions of Xbox Live users, just so they can review the tapes to see if any profanity or racial slurs were used. The result? They have to rely on people reporting other people. People that are untrustworthy, thus their reporting might be fake, etc. The system would work better if more people used it but as it stands, the bulk of reports are probably just people piling it on people they don't like in real life. I couldn't tell you how many times I've had groups of kids say things like "You took the sniper rifle even though I called it, now me and my bro's are gonna report you, and file a bad review". Does anything ever come of it? Nope, I'm still a five star member of xbox live (or is it six...whatever). In fact, I'm listed at 100% positive reviews. Makes you wonder what happens to the negative reviews...my theory is that they get sucked into the abyss.
@haggard - What is this... "summarize" of which you speak?
Ryan P. @ Sep 24th 2008 11:48AM
No Brian didn't miss it at all.
@BAnana boat+ Metal gear:
Gays shouldn't have to keep it to themselves to avoid
negative comments and doing so is not segregating themselves. Gays will say they are gay to identifie
with other gay gamers. To have visibility, something straights take for granted. Just as you say "who cares if your gay" , I could say I don't care if your straight. If I want other gays to know I'm playing I'll say I'm gay. It has nothing to do with you. And complaining about bashing is not saying I'm a victim it's calling out people who deserve it, just cause I say it's wrong doesn't mean I actually get hurt by it.
The main reason the bashing is there is because they think no one who's actually gay who's going to take it personally is in there. Someone Saying they are gay gives them visibility and makes more gamers realize they are sharing the same space with different types of people.
Sure, there will allways be those who will bash anyway..but it will probably also discourage that just as much.
Erluti @ Sep 24th 2008 11:53AM
Whoah now Brian. I don't think anyone should say insulting or hateful things. Especially while playing a game of all things.
But Banana was just saying that when they made the video they problem used a gamer tag like "gaymer"... which would elicit this response. And I agree, don't use a gamer tag like that if you don't want to deal with the responses.
But in general, I don't think calling someone gay is any worse than saying their mother is a whore. It's a comment meant to demean someone. The problem isn't the word choice here, it's the sentiment.
(before i get flamed, no pun intended)
And considering being gay to be demeaning isn't a problem with gamers, it's a cultural problem at large, and to address it in the realm of gamers is to do the topic an injustice. As gamers we should stick to cutting the insults out of gaming in general.