Bungie: Game companies should pocket money from used sales
by Jason Dobson 
{ Sep 26th 2008 at 9:00PM }
"It seems to me that the folks who create and publish a game shouldn't stop receiving income from further sales." That's the word from Bungie audio director Marty O'Donnell, who obviously feels that game developers and publishers should realize residual income from used game sales, much like we imagine the vehicle, book, and toothbrush industries do today ... in Bizarro World.
The sound guru also believes that used game sales had a "big" impact on Halo, though he admits that "complaining about sales when you have a multi-million seller is somewhat difficult to justify." That it is. While it's interesting to see that not everyone is doing backflips over pre-owned sales, we can't help but wonder if O'Donnell envisions a future where companies are allowed to double dip with online auctions, or if a Spartan will pay a visit to our neighborhood garage sale looking for his fair share.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 9:10PM
Sadly it would never be able to happen. Used games = piracy to me. There is little difference between pirating a game and buying it 2nd hand unless you're fussed about game store profits (I'm not). Oh btw, yes I do buy pre-owned, or at least I used to back in the N64 days.
Anonymous @ Sep 26th 2008 9:16PM
You're crazy.
ChooChooCharlie @ Sep 26th 2008 9:22PM
Yeah. You are crazy. The difference between piracy and used game sales is that piracy sees that the developer receives no money from the sale. A used game, however, has already made the developer some profit in its initial sale, but is resold by a middleman who has to pay for the shelf-space that used title is taking up, so they charge money for it in order to recoup that cost and earn some profit of their own.
So, yeah, not the same.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 9:42PM
In both used sales and piracy the developer receives nothing. The only one who benefits from used sales the game shop. I don't know what on Earth you're trying to say to be honest. Whether that used game sells or not is irrevelent to whether the game developer receives a cut. I'm not against second hand games at all, I just don't think there's a difference between it and piracy.
I fail to see how shelf space comes into the issue. I don't know how Gamestop works but here in the UK in GAME and other stores they're usually dumped into a big unit in the middle of the store somewhere.
kojo87 @ Sep 26th 2008 9:59PM
that actually kinda makes sense.
giving the game companies the money from used game sales is like giving the car companies money from used car sales (private party resellers anyway) and that would make no sense. you sell it once and then its not yours anymore. that simple
Jeepers Creepers 712 @ Sep 26th 2008 10:09PM
I agree with you 100% on this ZeraKnight. Not sure why people are voting you down unless they're so incredibly brainwashed they can't understand our logic.
Pirated copies = Money for third parties, zero for devs.
Used copies = Money for third parties, zero for devs.
Had a discussion with a friend of mine over this. He thinks it's appalling that I pirate games that I can't buy new anymore. He thinks it's more valid to purchase it on ebay from someone. He says he doesn't care for the law issue of things, just supporting the company. Thing is, you're not. Purchasing used copies does nothing for the devs. It actually hurts more when you buy from Gstop and stuff in most cases. That's money spent on recycled games that people might pick up a new title on a whim on. Instead they'll go with the safe reused crap that's $5 cheaper. It's sickening to me.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:08PM
Just to clarify, I don't believe they should really get anything (part of me kind of does but I know it would be madness if they did). I didn't really mean what I said in the first sentence of my first comment, I guess the fact that it's 3am will do as an excuse.
Jeepers Creepers 712 @ Sep 26th 2008 10:12PM
how's this sound? In order to sell used games, you must pay a licensing fee.
IE, in order to sell used EA games, you must pay them $1,000,000 a year for potential sales lost. Considering Gstop pulled in like 2 billion on used sales alone in a year, I think this sounds reasonable.
So in order to receive new games from a production company, you must pay them a used game licensing fee. Kind of like rental stores have to pay about 4x the price of games / movies due to the revenue they bring in. Sounds good to me.
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 10:15PM
@Jeepers: No, used copies = money for third paries, money for devs. I mean come on dude, you can't have a used copy unless someone bought the copy in the first place! If I buy a book from the store, the publisher received their money. It is then 100% my property and I can resell it for any price I please - without the publisher receiving a penny of my resale.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:21PM
It's definitely a sticky situation. I'm sort of borderline. As other people have said below, the idea of paying car manufacturers to buy a 2nd hand car is quite ridiculous. There is of course the fact that (as far as I know) selling used games is actually illegal. It's just that noone cares because everyone does it. I'd probably be less borderline if the profit margins weren't such a fucking joke. Once again I don't know what it's like overseas but over here you get paid nothing to sell your games, and yet they sell it on for almost retail price.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:22PM
@Mike. Why do people keep making this argument? It's totally irrelevant as to whether someone else bought it or not. No EXTRA money goes to the devs.
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 10:24PM
Wow, this has got to be the stupidest thing I've read in awhile. You honestly think that pirating and buying something used are the same? If that were true than pirating wouldn't be illegal. People that I know that pirate games don't pay a dime so no one makes any money.
So do you think that buying a car used, a house used, or the underwear that you're wearing on your head used is pirating? It's called capitalizm. They've built a business around buying something that someone doesn't want and selling it for a profit to someone that wants it. It's not like PC sales where you're buying a license to play the game. When you buy a console game you're buying it as your property. GameStop buys it from you and it then becomes their property. They decide to sell it.
Game devs made their money when someone had to have the game the day it came out or someone like me that will not buy a used game unless I can get it for at least 50% off. If devs want to make money in the long run they should stop selling their shitty ass game or old ass game for $60. They should tailor their supply to meet the demand or else in the long run that game is going to be more attractive at a lower price point used than it will be at full retail brand new. Next you'll say that Blockbuster pirates previously viewed videos.
j.howlett @ Sep 26th 2008 10:26PM
used copy = first sale for dev/pub and retailer pirated copy = no body gets paid
Faust @ Sep 26th 2008 10:33PM
Selling used games is not illegal. Where do you get this shit from?
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 10:37PM
"@Mike. Why do people keep making this argument? It's totally irrelevant as to whether someone else bought it or not. No EXTRA money goes to the devs."
Which is EXACTLY how it should be. Seriously, what are you trying to say here? This is exactly how our monetary system (which is very similar to the bartering system) works, it's exactly how it's worked for hundreds of years, and it's exactly how it will continue to work in the future.
Since you are clearly uncertain on what that means, it works like this: I trade something they want from me (my money) for something I want from them (a copy of their game). After the deal is complete, then own my money 100% and I own a copy of their game 100%. They are free to do as they please with my money, and I am free to do as I please with their game.
If they deserve a portion of the money I receive when I resell the game, I deserve a portion of my money back when they spend it on food with their next paycheck. It's as stupid as it sounds.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:38PM
Jesus Christ I tried being reasonable but it's like talking to toddlers. When you buy a used game, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF SOMEONE BOUGHT IT BEFORE YOU. What you're saying is that that person would not have bought the game unless you were going to buy it second hand in the future. lolwut? Do you realise how retarded your argument is?
And where did cars and houses come into it? If you fucking read my posts you'll see that I'm not against selling used games.
Megadanxzero @ Sep 26th 2008 10:43PM
O.k, let's run through a very simple scenario:
Person A buys Halo 3 new on launch day for full price.
We then have two possible outcomes:
1) Person B buys Halo 3 second hand after Person A has sold it
2) Person B downloads Halo 3 illegally and Person A keeps it
In both cases THE GAME DEVELOPER GETS THE SAME AMOUNT OF FUCKING MONEY. 1 sale, $60, £40, whatever. Yes, buying a game second hand means that someone else obviously had to pay full price for it, but WANTING to buy a game second hand doesn't magically make someone go out and buy it before you, then sell it to Gamestop so you can get it cheaper. Either way no additional copies of the game are sold, the developer makes no extra money.
And yes, technically speaking reselling your games is illegal. Look on the back of a game box:
'FOR HOME USE ONLY. Unauthorised copying, adaptation, rental, lending, distribution, extraction, RE-SALE, arcade use, charging for use, broadcast, public performance and internet, cable or any telecommunications transmission, access or use of this product or any trademark or copyright work that forms part of this product are prohibited'
The game is sold to you, and you only. You're not even supposed to let other people WATCH you play a game (I mean what the fuck? XD), but they can't stop you obviously...
God @ Sep 26th 2008 10:45PM
lol knighty is retarded
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:46PM
Listen very VERY carefully because I don't want to repeat this next post:
1) I am not against selling used games
2) My ONLY point is that used games and pirated games both contribute nothing to the developer, and therefore are the same from the point of developer profits, the ONLY way they differ is for game store profits (which as I've mentioned are a farce)
3) I've seen plenty of games/films that say on the back that they cannot be resold, just like you cannot rent them out or make people pay to play
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 10:51PM
The problem is that you're saying that a used game is equal to a pirated game when it clearly is not. The dev got their money when the game first sold. It's not like GameStop broke into a warehouse, stole a bunch of new games, opened the boxes, and then sold them as used.
God @ Sep 26th 2008 10:53PM
so you learned the law from the back of a game box? No need to look it up. Hell you can know practice law.lol
2 hearts
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 10:56PM
I really don't understand what's so hard to understand. You are saying that if I pirate a game, then space-time breaks down and stops someone buying it in the first place? Am I understanding you correctly?
Let's pretend there are 2 people in the world. Me and you. You buy a game full price and put it up for second hand sale a week later. Meanwhile, I pirate it. In another dimension, the same thing happens, but I buy your used copy. Is there any difference? Has the money flowing into the game company changed? No.
God @ Sep 26th 2008 11:00PM
Let pretend knighty didn't make a stupid statement and have everyone correct it.
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 11:00PM
BTW Knighty, I don't mean to attack you. It's just that your initial comment rubbed me the wrong way. I'm a software developer, so I can tell you that I know the difference between a used copy of my product and a pirated one. Sure, we'd like for everyone to buy a new copy of our software. That's not the reality though. Actually they purchased a license so selling used is a different can of worms. Make a great product and people will hold on to it. I've still got my original GTA III game. Too great of a product for me to part with. I've sold much less games without a second thought. That's why I say that if devs want to get what they deserve they need to price it accordingly or create something to justify the full $60 retail price.
Lone Starr @ Sep 26th 2008 11:01PM
Piracy?
Three things to consider. First, people who sell and buy used games are NOT copying. Second, (so far as I know), this does not break any contracts that the initial user agreed to upon the initial purchase. As it says on the back of game cases, "Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited." Buying and selling used games does not seem to apply. Third, because both of these preconditions hold, we can establish that this type of sale is in line with other goods that can be freely sold because no explicit initial contract was agreed to.
To be fair, there may be laws beyond what the box indicates, so that would change things. But assuming there are not, this is not piracy. If there are those laws, it may be time to change them.
Also, the title and content of the post is misleading. Marty, not Bungie, said this more about changes he wants to see in the *system.* Additionally, He was likely speaking strictly about his own positions, not about the company's positions. This would make sense, considering he's the audio director.
Megadanxzero @ Sep 26th 2008 11:01PM
Oh my God Mike are you actually retarded? How many times do we have to make the same point before you fucking understand?
It doesn't matter how many times a game has been sold previously, if you buy it second hand the game developer gets the same amount of money. If the same copy of a game ends up being sold SIX DIFFERENT TIMES to different people, the developer gets the same amount of money. How is that fair for the developer?
If you were out on the street selling something which could easily be read over in a couple of minutes, and all the people you sold it to stood right next to you and sold it off to passers by for less, you'd get pissed off. It would be entirely possible for everyone on the entire street to read it when only one person ever actually paid you for your hard work. That's what's fucked up. Of course it wouldn't ever be that bad in a proper situation, but do you finally fucking understand that second hand sale = Absolutely nothing for the original seller?
Morisato @ Sep 26th 2008 11:10PM
Okay. If developers get paid for used games, then I should get at least 90% back on what I originally paid. They're going to resell MY LEGAL STAMPED COPY of their game, so I should get a cut too.
Mike @ Sep 26th 2008 11:09PM
"Let's pretend there are 2 people in the world. Me and you. You buy a game full price and put it up for second hand sale a week later. Meanwhile, I pirate it. In another dimension, the same thing happens, but I buy your used copy. Is there any difference? Has the money flowing into the game company changed? No."
Here's where your logic falls apart. Assume that we both pirate the game. Now the dev makes $0. Assume that GameStop got in two copies and opened them for display. We both buy them as "used". The dev made their money when GS bought them. Therefore (piracy used game sale) = Knighty gets pwned.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:13PM
I'm a "software developer" too (more specifically doing games programming) and I can tell you it'd annoy me seeing people play my game without rewarding me in some way. That's how the economy works doesn't it? Service for money.
It seems there's a lot of confusion because piracy has nothing tangible to it. When you buy a used game though, you get a box and stuff so you fell like you've contributed to the making of the game but you haven't at all.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:17PM
"Here's where your logic falls apart. Assume that we both pirate the game. Now the dev makes $0. "
And here's where you're not understanding what I'm saying. Throughout this argument there are only 2 possible different situation. A buys B buys used from A or A buys and B pirates. We're specifically talking about the profit made from buying used or pirating and another person having bought it. B pirating hasn't influence A's choice to buy it. Clearly an example with 2 people isn't particularly easy to see though.
NutMan @ Sep 26th 2008 11:18PM
The difference between buying a used game and pirating a game:
Buying a used game is legal.
Illegally downloading a game is NOT.
You're dumb.
Megadanxzero @ Sep 26th 2008 11:21PM
Err... Since when do retailers sell brand new games as used?
mirage @ Sep 26th 2008 11:21PM
Name one other industry where the creator of a product gets a share of any used sales. Music? No. Cars? No. Anything sold at a pawn shop? No. Why is this so hard for you to understand? A game deserves no different treatment than any other used product being sold. Period.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:21PM
And you haven't bothered to read what I'm saying so fuck off if you're gonna be an ass. This isn't to do with what is legal, it is to do with developer profits so kindly read the argument or go do something else.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:22PM
That was directed to Nutman.
Mirage: please also go read the argument or don't bother commenting. If you skim read it you'll see I'm not against used games.
mirage @ Sep 26th 2008 11:30PM
Also, likening used game sales to piracy is like comparing used car sales to car theft. Either way the car manufacturer doesn't get any money so they are equal. The problem with that argument is that they are not equal theft and reselling are completely different and cannot be considered equal. I guess what I am trying to say is that just because in both methods the company doesn't get any return on their product, it doesn't make them equal whatsoever.
God @ Sep 26th 2008 11:28PM
Go cry some more knighty.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:33PM
Mirage you've just said exactly what I'm trying to explain! It has the same consequences, that is what I'm trying to say (but comparing to car theft is as stupid as the things at the beginning of DVD's saying downloading films is like stealing a car but that's a totally different argument), I'm not saying that used game sales are piracy. Is it clearer now? I don't think I'll dignify God with a response, after all I don't believe in him.
mirage @ Sep 26th 2008 11:37PM
I understand your argument knighty, but it comes across as very naive. Buying a used game is legal and game companies support it buy letting these used game shops sell new copies of their games. They could easily show their distaste buy not shipping their games to these companies on release day. There is a very serious moral difference between buying a game used and stealing it. I guess by likening the two and then stating you aren't against used game sales you are stating that you are in fact FOR piracy?
(Sorry for that last little bit, but I just finished watching the presidential debate and I feel a strong urge to negatively spin the words of others.) ;)
mirage @ Sep 26th 2008 11:39PM
I guess I am not understanding your argument here. I am going to have to stop replying. Not trying to offend, but I think you are a little confused.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:42PM
I'm not against either. I hardly think the argument is naive, the problem is the whole argument got ridiculous just because people didn't understand what I was saying, I didn't want a bloody page long argument.
I'm also not for either by the way. But I don't feel any differently if I pirate or buy second hand though.
knighty (GT: ZeraKnight) @ Sep 26th 2008 11:48PM
Anyway, it's almost 5 fucking am here, can't believe I've been doing this for almost 2 hours, so I'm going to get some sleep but will be willing to try and make people understand what I'm saying in the morning. Contrary to evidently popular opinion in this thread I am not retarded, and I will damn well make sure people understand what I'm saying.
Vidikron @ Sep 27th 2008 12:27AM
OK, you guys that are claiming used games are bad... I have a simple question. Why should games be treated any differently than virtually every other item on the market? I can go out to any store, buy any item, and then turn around and sell it... it's not illegal. So why should game be treated any differently? Why should game devs get special treatment compared to every other manufacturer on the planet?
In fact, I have LESS sympathy for software devs. They make their product once and then simply copy it over and over. Most other material goods must actually be constructed each time and don't have the luxury of simply stamping out copies on cheap plastic discs.
iRobot @ Sep 27th 2008 12:32AM
Game company's do get the money. From the original purchase of the game. Now, if I "give" a game that I don't want to a friend, the Developers STILL don't get the money. So get over yourself.
Having said that, if Developers and Game companies want to make money from their old games -- THEN PLACE said games on XBOX Live, PSN, or Wii Shopping Network. And shut the hell up already. I am SO tired of this argument, it's completely stupid and easily solvable.
Digital Downloads, solves this problem. Now shut up!
KeenCommander @ Sep 27th 2008 12:36AM
After about half way through this, I stopped reading and just downvoted every time I saw Knighty's name. It's all the same thing over and over again anyways.
Dan H. @ Sep 27th 2008 12:43AM
Knighty, you are wrong. There is a HUGE difference if someone had to buy the game before you or if it is just a copy. By buying a used game, you are contributing to a market which facilitates the purchasing of new games. A consumer may be more inclined to purchase a game at full retail value if they know that they can resell it later. This adds to the value of the product. Also if one buys a used game there is one less copy of that game on the market, thus creating a larger demand which will also increase the demand for new copies. Pirating a game does not encourage the buying of new gmaes whatsoever. You are wrong. You said that making a game is aa service, this is wrong. It is producing a good. When you produce a good, you loose all control of it once you sell it.
Red Leader @ Sep 27th 2008 1:08AM
It's amazing how quick a relatively profound statement can be trampled on and ridiculed by a bunch of pretentious douchebags on this site.
prinygod @ Sep 27th 2008 1:51AM
I don't know how you think its profound. The poster statement implies that from an economic stand point (as far as the developers) There is no difference between buying used and pirating a game.
Ill try to explain why this is incorrect in the most simplest way i can, no offense to anyone.
suppose that there is 1000 people that are interested in acquiring a product, and i'm the only one who bought the product strait from the seller. Even if i resell it and it keeps getting resold till all 1000 people own it at one point, there is still only one in circulation, and thus each on would have to deal with the wait for it to circulate.
In all likely hood at least one person will not want to wait, or perhaps not willing to give up their copy, thus encouraging at least one more sale. If i take that first copy however and distribute 1000 copies to all 1000 people. Then there is 1000 copies at once, removing the demand. Everyone can have a copy for as long as they want and still fufill the requirement of one purchase, however no one is likely to buy a second copy, because they already have it.
There are some other factors involved but this should explain why Pirating does not equal Second hand as far as how much money the developer makes. Now it is true that second hand reduces the total bought, but that was not the original argument in the first post
I apologize in advance if there are any mistakes in this example because i am tired and not as focused as i would like
please @ Sep 27th 2008 2:10AM
If selling a game you bought is legal Then is preventing the sale of your game not legal? Is steam illegal becuase it prevents my sales of Half Life
Mark C @ Sep 27th 2008 2:24AM
Well...at least the reply system seems to be working!