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Reader Comments (44)

Posted: Oct 10th 2008 8:15AM SheppyReturns said

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Good article and kind of frightening. After all, these laws are often drafted on the false numbers given by certain media groups. *cough, RIAA Nintendo MPAA cough* Ars Technica had an interesting article a couple days ago on this issue.

It is funny, though, how these laws are becoming more and more anti consumer and anti artist. Hell, just look at the orphaned works law they tried passing a couple weeks ago. On one hand, they are protecting the creators with the largest wallets while trying to slap away rights and ownership from the creators without deep wallets.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:41AM (Unverified) said

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At risk of sounding like a total nut job, both bills you just mentioned are clear cut case of pure corporate greed and the power they have.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:09PM BigD145 said

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Funny? These laws aren't funny at all. They show just how much money is pushed through lobbyists. It's a disease that's been rotting our gov't for decades.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 2:38PM Ordeith said

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Joe Biden still doesn't think this goes far enough.

Someone who supports the Patriot Act and says it doesn't do enough, someone who supports the DMCA and still says it doesn't do enough.. and now this.

How can people vote for ANYTHING this man is involved with?
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 8:18AM Mr Khan said

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Yikes. The only thing that's really scary about it is that it allocates funds for more/tighter enforcement, the creation of an overseer position, etc.

Manga websites, free fansubs, most of the good stuff on YouTube, this could destroy an internet way of life.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 8:24AM Mr Khan said

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Ahh, but i'm getting ahead of myself. A law this broad would basically be challenged by anyone who gets nailed and has a competent lawyer. If it gets out of hand, i could see the ACLU and the Supreme Court dealing with it rather quickly.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 8:43AM SheppyReturns said

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Unless, of course, the litigators use the fear and threat of suing for much more to get people to settle, warning them against even seeing a lawyer, like the RIAA and Activision has been doing.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 9:07AM BananaBoat said

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I'm a bit confused on the details. They took out the provision that would have mandated the justice department to go after copyright infringers (non-commercial ones) so aren't "normal joes" off the hook for property seizure? I don't condone piracy in any form, but treating copyright the same way as the much more important war on drugs is ridiculous.

Or does it allow for property seizure by copyright holders if they win in civil court? I can't imagine it does. It seems like that particular part of the bill would only apply to commercial pirates, whom I doubt any of us have a problem with them going after anyway.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. If it allows for property seizure in cases of civil infringement, it will be an atrocity.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 9:23AM Comet 20 said

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Well it fits then cause the war on drugs is ridculous.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 10:27AM (Unverified) said

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"but treating copyright the same way as the much more important War on Drugs is ridiculous."

The war on drugs is a farce. If addiction is indeed a disease, as so many government sponsored programs claim, then all the war on drugs really accomplishes is putting sick people in jail, and the occasional distributor. Research shows that treatment should be increased, and law enforcement should be decreased in order to offset drug problems.

" * A study by the RAND Drug Policy Research Center found that treatment is 10 times more cost effective than interdiction in reducing the use of cocaine in the United States.(12)
* The same study found that every additional dollar invested in substance abuse treatment saves taxpayers more than $7 in societal costs, and that additional domestic law enforcement costs 15 times as much as treatment to achieve the same reduction in societal costs.(13)"

http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/factsheets/economiccons/fact_economic.cfm#notes
http://www.fathom.com/media/PDF/2184_cocainess.pdf

We'll never get rid of all the drugs in the country (let alone in the world), and I don't think anybody could reasonably argue against that point. Yet the past 40 years of the war on drugs has resulted in over 37 million arrests of nonviolent offenders and over a trillion wasted tax dollars. Every year taxpayers forfeit 69 billion dollars to fight the losing side of the war on drugs.

It's not as if ending the war on drugs would cause everyone to go out and do heroin. I wouldn't go do a bunch of drugs just because they suddenly became legal, and I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't either. In fact, according to a Zogby poll, 99% of people wouldn't do drugs like heroin and cocaine if they were to become legal.

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle_blog/2007/dec/05/poll_hard_drug_legalization_little_use

The most important thing about the war on drugs is ending it.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 10:59AM BananaBoat said

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Yeah, darn those authorities for trying to stop the rampant drug problem that has turned all of our big cities into unlivable hell holes. Not to mention that drugs are the root cause of a ton of the crime in this country.

Anyone dumb enough to buy or sell drugs doesn't deserve property. Then again, I have no intention of debating the war on drugs.

As for seizure of property for non-commercial piracy though, that is a completely different story. Non-Commercial piracy (again, I feel they should go after the commercial form all they want) harms noone to any degree that should warrant increased enforcement from what we already have.

Does anyone out there actually know if there will be seizure in non-commercial cases?

(also, Banana *Bending Rodriguez* Boat says "Don't do drugs kids!")
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:11AM (Unverified) said

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Way to just stick to your closed-minded opinion without bothering to look at anything I said. Instead of spouting out an uninformed opinion, try to back yourself up with some facts. I have no interest in hearing your narrow-minded world view if you you have nothing concrete to base it on other than your own misunderstandings.

"Then again, I have no intention of debating the war on drugs."

Yeah, I try to avoid debates where I don't know what the hell I'm talking about too.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:24AM (Unverified) said

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Sorry about the double post, but I meant to address this little number:

"Yeah, darn those authorities for trying to stop the rampant drug problem that has turned all of our big cities into unlivable hell holes."

First of all, I'd like to hear which of our big cities are unlivable hell holes. Regarding authorities, I'm more of a fan of the authorities who actually have a realistic understanding of the drug problem:

http://www.leap.cc/
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:25AM BananaBoat said

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If I didn't live next to a city with a very rampant drug problem, which has turned into a very rampant murder problem (that tends to happen when drugs are involved) I might care about reading your links.

Again, I refuse to debate the war on drugs during a discussion of the new war on copyright infringement, but I'll say this... Your position is "If you don't agree with me, you are a close minded nutjob!" which puts you on the same level as people like Lou Dobbs and Ann Coulter. Good show sir.

I'll ask again; Does anyone know if the property seizure portion of the bill extends to non-commercial infringement?
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:28AM BananaBoat said

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BananaBoat presents the unlivable hellhole short list:

Detroit
St.Louis (Mostly the east part of St.Louis)
Los Angeles (some parts are better than others)
Oakland
Philadelphia
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:33AM (Unverified) said

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"Your position is "If you don't agree with me, you are a close minded nutjob!" which puts you on the same level as people like Lou Dobbs and Ann Coulter. Good show sir."

You are mistaken. My position is that if you have nothing but a strong opinion and rhetoric to support your claim, then you are without a leg to stand on. I'm one of those weird people that requires actual evidence as opposed to your word in order for me to believe that what you say is true.

You say I'm wrong, yet you offer nothing but a vague anecdotal reference to support your claim. I say that I am right, and I have provided verifiable evidence to support each of my points. If you didn't want to debate the war on drugs, then you shouldn't have brought it up, especially if you don't have anything to support your stance on the issue.

I'm interested to see these crime statistics and the data that directly links your unnamed big city's murders with the nations drug problem. I'm also interested in you refuting one of my points directly as opposed to just repeating your unfounded assertions.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:42AM (Unverified) said

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"BananaBoat presents the unlivable hellhole short list:

Detroit
St.Louis (Mostly the east part of St.Louis)
Los Angeles (some parts are better than others)
Oakland
Philadelphia"

These cities are indeed dangerous, though they are all far from unlivable. I think you're being a bit liberal with your use of hyperbole in your attempt to support your claim.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:21PM BananaBoat said

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I would now like to give my opinion on why hookers should be legalized. It may have nothing to do with the Pro-IP act, but hell, I'm an argumentative internet tough guy.

I submit to you, fellow Mario hats, that noone would use hookers if hookers were legal. I've gathered five minutes of information on this topic via google, and I will present links to show my superiority. I will not stop until everyone agrees with me, and thus makes me feel better about myself. Anyone not in agreement after three comments will be severely insulted until they cry, at which time they will be given a hooker to pick their spirits back up.
----------------------------------------------------

In all seriousness (because what is the internet if not totally serious) you make the mistake of thinking that everyone is studying the same topics as you, or that anyone cares about your stance on the subject. If I were researching every topic under the sun so that I could list facts and figures, I'd have no life. I quite enjoy having a life. Since this is America, I'll continue to give my opinion, and you should learn that it holds the same weight whether or not it's backed up by facts. That's why it's called an opinion. At the same time, you should learn that even if your opinion is the most well thought out, most researched opinion on the planet, it's still just an opinion and that it still doesn't matter unless you are in a position of power (which I'm going to assume neither of us are)

I refuse to debate the war on drugs, but I have no problem pointing out internet hilarity when I see it.

Most rational people would agree to disagree and be done with it. Unfortunately (well...hilariously, as I've already pointed out) you seem unwilling to do that. So...ask yourself...do you enjoy arguing with Mariokips?

In all (all) seriousness, I'm English, and as such, I love an argument.




(by English, I mean born of English parents. I don't live IN England)
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:25PM BananaBoat said

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In actual seriousness (yes, I know, it's rare) does anyone know if the seizure component of the law is going to apply to non-commercial infringement? People are arguing about who has facts and who doesn't etc, but noone will answer mah questions.

Question: Will property seizure occur in cases of non-commercial copyright infringement

Answer: ????????
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:31PM (Unverified) said

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I agree that prostitution should be legal. What two consenting adults do with each other is of no concern to the government. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars and government resources to attempt to legislate morality.

"If I were researching every topic under the sun so that I could list facts and figures, I'd have no life. I quite enjoy having a life."

No, what you would have is a frame of reference as opposed to a strong uninformed opinion. If you like arguing so much, then you should make a conscious attempt to get better at it. You have done nothing to attack my arguments, and have only made absurd allegations based upon nothing more than your own machinations.

"Since this is America, I'll continue to give my opinion, and you should learn that it holds the same weight whether or not it's backed up by facts."

This is patently false.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:40PM BananaBoat said

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I'm laughing pretty hard right now. A lesser man may have had his feelings hurt, but what other man do you know that can use watergun AND shoot fireballs AND fly?

Sarcasm: It's what's for dinner.


Also, Pants.



(I love actual forums such as AVSforum for their almost fascist commitment to keeping people on topic. I'm still waiting for one angel of a person that actual has an opinion on the Pro-IP act, or that knows anything about it, so that I can get my question answered. I'd google myself, but I write this during breaks from writing a 6 page essay for English 101. Yes, some of us actually do have lives)
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:42PM BananaBoat said

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actually*

Had that happened during the writing of this essay, I'd have lost 10 points.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:48PM (Unverified) said

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Trotting out that tired "I have a life" line are you? Can't you actually address the issue instead? I'm posting at work, so I don't understand what about you being distracted from your work by this puts you on higher ground than me.

Unlike you, I'm actually interested in the other side of the argument here, but I have seen nothing to substantiate it yet. I have asked you to show me something that has helped you to come to your conclusions, and not only have you neglected to show me anything, but you have also openly refused to read evidence which supports my arguments. There is a term for that, it is called 'willful ignorance.'

Try making a bunch of unfounded claims in your English paper like you're doing now in this topic without backing them up and get back to me on how that turns out for you.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:54PM (Unverified) said

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term for that; it is called*

As long as we're grading papers here.


Regarding the PRO-IP seizure issue, I haven't seen anything specific yet (still wasting my non-life researching though). It all seems pretty ambiguous so far (big surprise there). If I had to reach a conclusion on it right now, I would say that they COULD seize property related to non-commercial piracy, though whether or not they actually would is a different story altogether.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 1:15PM BananaBoat said

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Let the good lulz roll on.

You should have realized thirteen comments ago (my first comment) that we are talking about the Pro-IP act, and not about the war on drugs. The W.O.D (as I like to call it) was mentioned for the sole fact that both initiatives called for property seizure. You mistake a lack of information on my part as laziness, when in reality, it's a lack of caring in any way shape or form. You continue to argue with a mudkip about an issue that you yourself brought up, and expected anyone to care about. You are entertaining good sir, if nothing else.

I wasn't implying that you didn't have a life when I said that I had a life, but if only you had your own version of Jim from the office, you wouldn't steal so much company time. Time thief. (If I weren't busy, I'd get out of my chair and rofl)

/end lulz

Thank you for actually answering the question about seizures in cases involving non-commercial piracy. I guess it will take a lawyer to sort through the Pro-IP act and figure out what it actually means. More than likely, it will take a judge, since I doubt the EFF and the ACLU will sit on their hands over this.

Oh and I do care, I just don't care anything about debating over the internet. As for the drug/murder problem of which I spoke, I believe the big city near me is up to 30-40 murders so far this year, most of which were drug and gang related. Also, the world capital of methamphetamine is in the same metropolitan area. I have 20 something years of real world education in the field of why drugs are a cancer on our society, so you'll excuse me if I don't have links to polls or studies. Faced with the alternative (drugs running rampant into suburbia thanks to legalization or decreased regulation) I'm willing to accept the War on Drugs. It's working here, if your only metric is that the high level of enforcement in the inner city has kept the problem contained and away from our children (of which I was one, some years ago. I'm quite glad that no drug dealers were allowed to roam my neighborhood)

Ok, I'm out. Actual debate is out of the question when faced with another 2000 words that need typing.


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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 1:23PM SheppyReturns said

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Gonna have to agree with Boffo here. You have nary a clue on the War on Drugs, bananaboat. What you HAVE is rhetoric. Which is awesome if you need to fill a 10 page essay without saying a single fucking thing, but you're actually trying to say something.

Simple question and answer session.

Q: Who is dealing the drugs?
A: Gang members and criminals.

Q: Who is rersponsible for drug related violence?
A: Gang members and criminals.

Q: Why are they responsible?
A: Because dealing drugs is heavily profitable.

Q: Why is drug dealing profitable?
A: Because drugs are illegal.

Q: How do you solve this issue?
A: Government regulation of recreational drugs as well as increased rehab services for those wanting to quit.

Q: Wow, sounds like a lot to actually DO. Is there really any benefit for them putting forward the effort?
A: Ever been to a bar? Taken medication from a hospital? Fact of the matter is, government regulation of drugs would eliminate majority of the profit, thus the crime, related to drug dealing.

Q: So why, then, would a government desire a war on something that could be reduced dramatically JUST by regulating it?
A: The war on drugs is a HUGE money pit that draws on the national debt but also funds and augments police forces the country over while also giving us prisons to build and criminals to persecute all for the low low cost of nothing. It's not money our government is spending, it's money we're borrowing. There is a national debt, you know.

Q: So doesn't that make the War on Drugs nothing mroe than and elaborate hoax specifically designed to make money as well as make sure people who need help to stop using drugs receive prison sentences instead?
A: Why yes, yes it does.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 4:33PM RyanLN said

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As a criminal prosecutor I can say that I agree with Boffo 100%- for the most part, most of my fellow prosecutors could give a shit about the unfortunate souls who possess small quantities of drugs; these cases detract from our ability to prosecute real crime- rape, murder, burglaries, robberies, et al. Yes, the *root cause* of some of our real crime *is* drugs, but in my opinion that could be taken care of through choking off the supply (e.g. going after the dealers) or legalizing small amounts of drugs and regulating the hell out of it. It is absolutely true that we waste hundreds of millions of dollars in my state on drug enforcement, just as it is also true that we have a prison overcrowding problem that is so vast that if you are sent to prison on a low level felony that is not an agreed sentence you can practically bank on being released from prison within five weeks to attend a drug program. The real problem is that the tools in our legislature don't have the courage to stand up and and admit that the war is a failure, or to ween themselves from the federal mega-teat that they suckle on for dollars upon dollars. But who am I to judge- I'd definitely lose my job if I ever suggested publicly that a large part of what we do as an office is pointless and absurd. And I like my job. What a world.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 7:03PM BananaBoat said

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Essay is finally done. It's chalk full of rhetoric and BS, but it's pretty much a guaranteed A.

Can't believe the argument went on while I wasn't even here, about a topic that noone wanted to talk about in the first place.

Oh and did you hear the news?


The bird -IS- the word.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 9:07AM Erluti said

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So why weren't we told about this while it was being drafted and voted on?
Now it's too late to contact my Senators and Representative to tell them that this is not the best idea.

Although, this gives me hope:
"Of course, it's entirely possible the courts will substantially limit what is written into the act, making most or all of these points moot. In that case, we'd be more or less where we are today, except with higher potential penalties for piracy."
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 10:54AM Mr Khan said

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Aye, and i already sent my absentee ballot in, so i can't go back and figure out if my congressmen voted for this farce (though if he did, i still doubt it would make his competitor look any sweeter)
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 9:21AM (Unverified) said

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Ugh, that's one ugly law. Like Large Marge from "Pee Wee's Big Adventure" ugly.

Given the financial crisis that's happening right now I bet this law has very low priority. At the same time because of the slumping economy I could easily see some companies abusing the hell out of this law to "make up for lost profits due to pirating".

One can only hope that this law gets challenged and struck down.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 9:34AM MechMarine said

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This law will most assuredly pass. Once that happens, expect the growth of online media to stagnate. Really, this is just an effort to turn people into commodities that companies can trade between each other. No matter what you do, you cant escape these corporations, as they are continuously increasing their role in civil policies.

We are fast approaching a world like Jennifer Government. Welcome to the United States of Comerica, people.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 10:11AM blash said

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It'll probably pass, unfortunately. Here's my schlub with it:

In order to enter the home of a private citizen, an officer of the law must have probable cause, correct? Well, all he has to do in order to have probable cause is to link into the Internet coming out of the house, see that there is traffic of any kind, and go in. Why? Because statistically speaking the vast majority of internet traffic is pirated content. So, a) we've basically given, with this act, policemen the right to enter pretty much any home at any time so this is unconstitutional (furthermore, it treats everyone as guilty before they've proven to be so in a court of law), b) we've also given the police the right to demand a password for every machine in the house to see whether there's pirated content on that computer, and if we refuse then we're obstructing justice and we can be arrested for that.

The only way I take comfort in this is that somebody with the police will make it their duty to invade the houses of everyone in Congress and start seizing their computers, I bet that would get the law repealed pretty quick :D
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:08AM Mr Khan said

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Thing is, that definition of probable cause would definitely be fodder for the violation of one of the amendments. I remember reading that a cop would need to have a warrant to make that kind of search for internet content, because warrantless arrests are STRICTLY limited to illegal activities that they can see with the naked eye.

See a weed plant in your front yard? They can arrest you, no warrant. See a weed farm through infrared goggles growing in your basement? No warrant? Can't touch you.

So no, we would be handily protected in that case.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 11:15AM blash said

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Khan: as more and more criminal acts go digital, you can be damn sure that they're going to change the definition of probable cause since, needless to say, you can't see bits and bytes with the naked eye, and the existence of privacy filters for screens.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 12:47PM BananaBoat said

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wicked, you seem like you'd know the answer to this question:

Did this bill actually make it the job of the police to go after non-commercial "pirates"? You speak of searches of homes, but surely that's only for commercial pirates right? I was under the impression that this bill passed without any of the language that allowed the authorities to get involved in non-commercial piracy (like that of your idiot 12 year old neighbor that uses limewire to get a song every now and then).

I don't pirate anything myself, but I'm really hoping that it hasn't come to the point where our precious law enforcement resources would be used for what should be a civil matter. When my tax dollars are at work taking down grandma's and babies (like the recording industry has done with their lawsuits) then I'm definitely not ok with it.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 10:50AM iFester said

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In the interest of "protection" of creative property, the creator becomes nothing more than a tool to a corporation pimping out their ideas to fatten their wallets and making the little man suffer by shrinking his by any means possible. I'm beginning to think our "freedom" is a veil over our eyes. Welcome to the future.

Big Brother Is Watching.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 2:02PM Bones3D said

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Great... just one more reason for broadband providers to continue gouging us with increased pricing without similar increases in bandwidth...
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 3:04PM Gwr said

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With the state of economy right now your guys are triying to chuckle more useless laws?

Americans, hold your gorement before it ruins us all please.


That law is just like a bad glitch in a game, its useles and it will be abussed a lot.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 8:59PM (Unverified) said

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And my lame government copies anything the US does, so now we have to fight this stupid thing too.

Why can't be lobbying forbidden? Lobbying is another word for BRIBING.
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Posted: Oct 10th 2008 6:24PM Mutagenaric said

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The issue I have here is less that piracy can bring higher charges, but that it becomes difficult to tell WHEN you're pirating something. It's annoying as hell when laws and regulations become so convoluted that it's impossible to tell what is legal and what isn't.
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Posted: Oct 14th 2008 8:53PM KidKobun said

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I fully agree.
I might as well stay offline if this is how it is going to be. What BS.
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Posted: Oct 13th 2008 9:42PM (Unverified) said

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"Of course, it's entirely possible the courts will substantially limit what is written into the act..."

Activists judges!!!!! They will destroy the world!!!
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Posted: Nov 17th 2008 3:00PM Tye El Czar said

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We NEED to start a riot over this. That will show them.
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