Secondhand sales solution? Sell the endings!
by Justin McElroy 
{ Nov 10th 2008 at 3:00PM }
If the headline of this post were the title of a book, the subhead would be: "And Other Awful Things Epic Chief Mike Capps Has Said Out Loud." Just so we don't bias you further, here's his quote to Game Informer, straight from Videogaming247: "I've talked to some developers who are saying 'If you want to fight the final boss you go online and pay USD 20, but if you bought the retail version you got it for free'."So, he gets a points for creativity, but the points he loses for releasing awful ideas into the wild could form into a sphere of wickedness big enough to give Atlas a slipped disc. We
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
SecretAgentHam @ Nov 10th 2008 3:05PM
OH NO HE DIDNT!
Zertoss @ Nov 10th 2008 3:11PM
I'd like to see this illustrated by Mr. Skullhead.
Habiib @ Nov 10th 2008 4:26PM
Animaniacs and EarthWorm Jim used to be the highlight of my Saturday mornings.
Zertoss @ Nov 10th 2008 4:55PM
Also Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain.
michas_pi @ Nov 10th 2008 7:53PM
Don't forget The Tick!
Donald @ Nov 10th 2008 8:14PM
I really think Candle Jack needs to have a few words with those dev
dphizzle @ Nov 10th 2008 8:19PM
rewatching episodes from some of those shows made me ashamed how those jokes went over my head as a kid. they're so much better when you're older.
Bagels PSN:WolfLogic @ Dec 24th 2008 10:58AM
I have everyone of those DVD sets, and I have the song "Yakko's World" memorized. No joke. United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru, Republic Dominican Cuba, Caribean, Greenland El Salvador too...
JayVe @ Nov 10th 2008 3:12PM
This is so anti-consumer, it boggles.
I'll be sure never to buy a new Epic game, and probably never another Epic game, ever again. It shows a clear contempt for the consumer.
Sickening.
copa @ Nov 10th 2008 3:48PM
If you boycott every developer that has an exec with an irrational hatred of used game sales, then it's back to board games for you.
Here's the reason why developers who run this kind of smack are pussies:
They could implement the ultimate lock out scheme for secondhand sales tomorrow, if they so chose. They could distribute their titles digitally, and only digitally. Title is tied to an account, and there is no resale.
So why don't they do it tomorrow? Because they leverage enormous financial benefit out of the physical retail channel.
So they want the huge revenue streams associated with getting Best Buy, Walmart, and Gamestop to physically distribute their games, but they feel they shouldn't have to honor the consumer protections that are associated with EVERY OTHER PHYSICAL RETAIL PRODUCT IN THE UNIVERSE, like right of resale.
If you developers are feeling so fucking victimized by the retail distribution process, go all digital. Otherwise, shut the hell up.
bobartig @ Nov 10th 2008 4:43PM
@copa: Why would you categorize a game exec's hatred of used game sales as irrational? It's their job to develop market and sell games. The 2nd hand market makes billions off of their work while reducing overall sales. Seems like an entirely rational thing to hate and discourage if you're a game company.
Gamers are acting rational in the used game market already. They get value from the game, then they recycle some of that value by trading in and getting something new. The developers and game execs' rational response would be to disincentivize the used game sales market through the form of downloadable content and addons that incur a non-transferable investment on the part of the gamer.
The only irrational part of the suggested arrangement is that research shows that people rarely finish games anymore. So, who exactly do they capture by holding the ending ransom?
JayVe @ Nov 10th 2008 4:56PM
I boycott companies that hire irrational executives. As consumers, we vote with our wallets.
Don't support companies that enforce anti-consumer practices and hire irrational executives.
EricC @ Nov 10th 2008 6:09PM
@ bobartig: It's ironic that your entire argument fell apart due to the very points you were arguing against.
Every other physical commodity in the world "suffers" from the same "problem" (both in quotes because they're neither suffering, nor problems). Every used car sold represents a "lost sale" for the companies manufacturing new cars. Every used house sold represents a "lost sale" for companies building new houses. Every used cell phone sold represents a "lost sale" for the companies manufacturing new cell phones.
Like copa said, if you can't cope with the world of selling physical goods, stop selling physical goods. Car manufacturers, house builders and cell phone companies have MORE right to complain because they don't have the luxury of being able to go all-digital. So, the video game industry needs to STFU doubly.
Thanatos @ Nov 10th 2008 7:08PM
I say good riddance i started boycotting Epic when they started fucking over PC gamers with shitty non working ports this just puts the last nail in the coffin for me. Imagine renting a movie and having to fork over $20 to see the end, Ridiculous.
WiredKnight @ Nov 10th 2008 8:26PM
@JayVe
Read the fucking article the whole way through before you start pointing fingers. All Capps said is that some "unknown" developers mentioned this to him. He doesn't say who, and he doesn't say if he agrees with them or not.
The fact that he's mentioned at all in this post is so irrelevant it's not even funny. Justin, you really fucked this one up, having people get up in arms, ready to boycott Epic when they have nothing to do with this nonsense.
Guilty by association huh?
Mr Khan @ Nov 10th 2008 3:13PM
animaniacs ftmfw
(that's for-the-mother-fuckin'-win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8PhzrmBgMI
tmacairjordan87 @ Nov 10th 2008 3:16PM
hmm while I detest this idea, I certainly wouldn't have cared that much if Fallout 3's ending was taken out for used games. Those of you who beat it know what I'm talking about.
Paulmichael @ Nov 10th 2008 3:16PM
We're sadly not too far from such a horrible thing happening. Megaman 9, I'm looking at you and your "premium" game modes, characters, etc...
Dirty @ Nov 10th 2008 3:21PM
Somewhere and EA exec stood up and shouted "brilliant!"
Somewhere else Activision is having a meeting where a boss is saying "why didnt you clowns think of this."
Vegnagun bwf @ Nov 10th 2008 3:27PM
EA seems to be changing their ways, but Activision...
They would probably set up a subscription service that you had to pay for that gave you the codes to enter that allowed you to see the ending.
Jakka ( The Order of Haters of Balance) @ Nov 10th 2008 3:34PM
How is EA "changing their ways"? They've already started milking 50% of their new IP's while the other 50% isn't released yet!
Dirty @ Nov 10th 2008 3:39PM
EA is a two headed beast. One head is great, its full of new innovative ideas and creative thinking. The other head is angry and spiteful and charges money for anyone who wishes to come visit its other head.
What the fuck was I talking about?
Vegnagun bwf @ Nov 10th 2008 4:02PM
I stand by thinking that EA is going to change their ways post-Dead Space. EA is trying to make Dead Space their standards, and their even going to use the engine that Dead Space was using to hopefully achieve this.
Paul Nicholson @ Nov 10th 2008 3:27PM
While paying $20 to finish a game i probably only paid $10 for 2nd hand seems ridiculous on it's own, it is interesting to think about pay-for-DLC as a way for game makers to squeeze out extra revenue from the 2nd hand market. I could easily see more and more games being offered for cheap up front with extensive pay-for-DLC content down the road to essentially ensure the same thing. While "The Ending" is still on the disk, the cool new add-on content that everyone wants you'll have to pay for no matter what.
Vegnagun bwf @ Nov 10th 2008 3:28PM
Sucka tried to play me...
Jakka ( The Order of Haters of Balance) @ Nov 10th 2008 3:35PM
...but you never payed me, never...thus you don't get to see the ending.
seth @ Nov 10th 2008 3:35PM
One of the incentives of buying a game (especially linear games) is that I can eventually sell it to gamestop. I would be much more likely to rent or borrow rather than buy if they started this type of system. Then again, they'd probably find some way to f*** you with rental games as well.
Courtney @ Nov 10th 2008 3:29PM
Hey guys, what if we made all the enemies DLC, so that way, see, gamers could buy the game, and run around in it, but there wouldn't actually be anything for them to do. Then, they would have no choice but to buy it from us. Oh, and we could even make it a subscription service, so they could pay us a monthly fee to make sure there are monsters in all the games they buy from us. Somebody call accounting, we're going to make a killing.
Paul Nicholson @ Nov 10th 2008 4:26PM
Haven't you pretty much just described WoW, Everquest, etc.?
Levi @ Nov 10th 2008 3:30PM
Another bad DLC idea? I give this idea a Fish Eye.
Cesaria (GT: Cesaria360; PSN: Cesaria) @ Nov 10th 2008 3:33PM
Why does the gaming industry think its so different than other second hand mediums? Should this apply to albums, books, movies, and automobiles? Sorry, you have to go online to buy the engine. Fuck that.
T @ Nov 10th 2008 3:34PM
You know, just when I thought I'd heard the most greedy, slimy, underhanded business strategy ever...somebody new comes along and just blows it out of the water.
What games does Epic make? As I plan on never buying another one (regardless of if I can actually play the ending for free or not)
Erluti @ Nov 10th 2008 3:37PM
I'm surprised nobody has anything to say about the fact there are 5 maps you can only get in GoW2 if you buy it new...
Halwende @ Nov 10th 2008 3:51PM
That's something EXTRA that you might not even miss if you buy it second hand, not something that's an integral part of the game itself
You could say the same thing about no LIVE trials in 2nd hand games and promotions that have expired etc *shrug*
WiNG [Life in a Game] @ Nov 10th 2008 3:40PM
The only reason I read Joystiq is to get thanked for my tips submissions.
No but seriously, this is a highly upsetting turn of events and I hope it does NOT come to fruition.
AwesomeTown @ Nov 10th 2008 3:46PM
This is like buying some Chicken McNuggets but not getting to eat said Chicken McNuggets unless you go to another McDonald's and pay them more money.
Man, I hate that idea, but I love Chicken McNuggets.
Cesaria (GT: Cesaria360; PSN: Cesaria) @ Nov 10th 2008 3:56PM
Chicken McNuggets are fucking amazing.
jackal @ Nov 10th 2008 3:51PM
Call me old fashioned, but I believe video game developers need to quit bitching about how they're losing out on the used-games-pie and should, instead, focus on releasing products that have more than 10 hours of gameplay; the least they could do is release something to give their product longer legs and it shouldn't take 8 months-1 year to do so.
Setting that aside, I fail to see why they're complaining as much in regards to secondhand sales. No other industry gets exclusive control over their products when they hit the used market and they don't get a source of revenue from those used markets. GMC didn't beat down my back door demanding a percentage of what I paid for my '77 stepside pickup because I didn't buy it directly from them. The MPAA didn't force me to cough up $20 to watch the ending of the $5 Hellraiser copy I dug out of Blockbuster's used DVD bin. Take that in for just a moment. Satan and his minions...I mean, the MPAA, the same organization that will take you to court and sue you into financial nonexistence even over a false accusation of piracy, demands NOTHING in regards to used movie purchases. Of course, one could argue that the movie studios they represent would actually be the ones to make those demands, but the principle is largely the same.
rasgueado @ Nov 10th 2008 3:57PM
I think we may be missing an even bigger point here in terms of his choice of words.
"... but if you bought the retail version you got it for free."
Let's face facts here. The people who *bought* the retail version don't get the ending for "free." In fact, they paid $60 for it.
Tez @ Nov 10th 2008 4:16PM
As if we needed more proof that Epic should just stick to making game engines...
Startlingline117 @ Nov 10th 2008 4:18PM
The point you are missing here is that other mediums have ways to collect their money.
Ex: Music - tours, and merch
Movies - rentals in store, online, and digital distribution sales
But games on the other hand cannot always be sold online. Not everyone has a broadband connection to download their titles. In fact a large portion of consoles and computers are not permanently connected to the internet. So what do they do?
The problem is that used game retailers (gamestop) sell games new and make a small margin of profit. Gamers then in turn bring these games back after completing and sell to gamestop for $15-20 bucks who in turn doubles the price and makes the money that way. So in every other industry there are royalties paid for services used (itunes for example). But for things such as gamestop it is JUST the retailer who collects the money.
Ghostbuddy @ Nov 10th 2008 4:26PM
My god, what the flying fuck is wrong with him?
I mean honestly, this bitching about reselling is just f-ing ridicioulous already. It all started with one developer bitching , the blogs picked it up and a multitude of developers and publishers have followed suit. The irony is, the developer that I first saw bitching about resales being robbery was Bungie. You know that obscure developer, that made that obscure game, that didn't make 12x as much as it cost to make in the first day alone.
Honest to god. The average games budget, is a fraction of that of the average movie. The cost of a movie is a fraction of that of a game. The average movie nets a fraction of the profit as the average game.
Spiderman 3, for example cost 300 million to make. The movie made just over 100 million in the first weekend.
Halo 3, cost 10m to make, and made over 120 m on the first day.
WHY IN THE FUCK THEN DO I HEAR A BUNCH OF EXECS BITCHING? Why do I not hear Paramount or Fox bitching about resold movies? The truth is, these fucking blue collar jerk offs, have gotten a taste of wealth because of rapid industry growth. And now that they have a taste, they fucking want the hole pie to themselves.
Why the fuck is Mike Capps bitching? Because he wants EPIC to make even more fucking profit. And by him wanting epic to make more profit, I mean he wants an extra 300,000 dollars or so for him to distribute between him and other epic execs. All of this, "second hand sales is robbery" is all bullshit.
Temidien @ Nov 10th 2008 6:34PM
*slaps back* Amen, bro.
Samuel @ Nov 10th 2008 4:29PM
You're missing the point!
When you buy the game, it ships with a code that unlocks the final boss. It's a single use code (think the remade maps in GoW2).
If I sell the game to GameStop, the sucker who buys the used game can't finish it because the code has already been used. Then they have to go buy the code to finish the game.
Is it evil? No! It's no more evil than making a game an exclusively downloaded title. You'll still get a discount at the used game store; just not as big of one.
Ghostbuddy @ Nov 10th 2008 4:31PM
Every consumer industry deals with second hand sales. Every single one. From furniture, clothing, movies, auto mobiles, televisions, computers, the list goes on for ever. The difference is you don't see those industries trying to create artificial, devious way of forcing or pressuring people to buy their products new.
Stop making games people want to sell, and start making games people want to buy new.
Other then that, accept your place next to every other industry. And stop considering yourself special just because what your selling is software, and therefore you have an easier time breaking outdated property laws.
If you were selling anything else, this would be illegal. Thats the real irony here. You can call resaled games robbery. But by the legal defintion of theft, that is not theft, but this is.
Legal defintion of theft:
To deny or restrict the owner of property, from legal use.
The so called "free flash back map pack for example, those maps are all on the disk. Theres no way 5 maps, fit in less then 100MBs. They all exist as data, imprinted in physical space, on a disk he bought. Denying people who legally bought resold games, access to content imprinted on the disk, is illegal.
And as soon as the laws are updated to apply to new technology (its envitable), you can kiss this, and half the DRM technology out there good bye.
Temidien @ Nov 10th 2008 6:38PM
Actually, the GoW2 map-pack in question is an XBL download and not on the disk at all (I know b/c I downloaded it yesterday). An incentive like that where buying the game new gets you exclusive "free" content not available on the disk (and not integral to the overall experience of the game), encourages gamers to buy new without screwing over second-hand consumers. Epic actually did GoW2 right.
thispaceforsale @ Nov 10th 2008 4:36PM
Preorder bonuses encourage buying used. How about single-serving bonuses? New games could include one time use codes to unlock extra content.
Other industries have used items, but it's rare for most stores to have the used items right next to the new items all the more when there is a battle over shelf space.
Fadam @ Nov 10th 2008 4:37PM
So, essentially, poor gamers will never get the satisfaction of an ending?
Don't you love capitalism?
I'm really scared how greedy companies are becoming when it comes to video games. When you get something cheap, like the Wii, the publishers don't put anything on it, because they don't go by the ""Xbox Live" model of continuously draining you of every dollar possible.
Really, $1 for profile picture packs...
Nutchos @ Nov 10th 2008 4:40PM
@copa:
Well said.
This kind of idea would probably destroy any games rated less than AAA. People buy the games they really want @ release, full price. The games they want less, are bought further down the road at a price that makes it worth there while (retail or used).
If a system like this would be put in place. Most all games would tank. I imagine, not a lot of people will be willing to put down $60 for every game they're even remotely interested in. Most will either forget about them, or wait till they're in the bargain bins.
So the better idea would be to do something about the already high retail fee for new releases. Gives people less of an incentive to go used.
jackal @ Nov 10th 2008 4:42PM
You'd be right, except an increasing number of games have alternate revenue streams generated outside of the actual game itself. For instance, the only two things you really can't find Master Chief's face on are condoms and coffee mugs; there's a Halo action figure line, a Halo comic book series, and even a Halo tabletop strategy game. Epic has a Gears of War action figure line (they get a percentage of every NECA figurine), a novel, art books, they're trying to get a comic book published, and it sounds like their multi-million dollar movie is still in the works on some level; Insomniac is trying to get a Resistance comic started and they've been hinting that they might work with DC Universe to start a toy line. Since Activision now owns Guitar Hero, I wouldn't be surprised to stroll into a grocery store and buy Guitar Hero toilet paper. Blizzard has essentially every form of merchandise you can think of (same with Square Enix). Don't sit there telling us how secondhand gaming is hurting developers when they make a fair amount (or in some instances, a shit load) of money elsewhere.