Ebert thinks games are 'getting a lot better', prefers knitting to gaming

by Griffin McElroy { Dec 13th 2008 at 5:00PM }

Roger Ebert's feelings towards video games have been publicized in the gaming community as much as they have been criticized. That's why we feel that every time this cinematic adjudicator takes a step in our direction, its worth noting. Responding to a comment on his blog that references the second annual meeting of the Slate Year-End Gaming Club, in which New York Times' game reporter Seth Schiesel cited Ebert as an evaluational inspiration, Ebert conceded that he is "convinced that [video games] are getting a lot better."

Before you start planning the first annual "Roger Ebert Thinks Video Games Are Art" parade, you might want to check out the first part of his response, in which he says that video games aren't art. In fact, you may want to read the end of his response, in which he suggests that if he'd been told to review video games instead of films during his long, industrious career, he "would have taken up professional knitting." We'd typically take a supercilious jab at this type of dismissal -- but we've spent more than a few evenings debating between a round of Left 4 Dead or finishing up that half-completed tea cozy.

Tags: art, ebert, video-games-as-art

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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)

Cj @ Dec 13th 2008 5:05PM

He needs to go away already.

Temidien @ Dec 13th 2008 5:31PM

People professionally trained to review media should stick to what they know. I don't ask a car mechanic to fix the A/C in my house any more than I trust a film critic to broadly criticize an entertainment medium he has no experience with. I don't understand why we have to pay attention to his criticism at all.

If we want gaming to be recognizable as a legitimate medium, it will come from our numbers and how we translate gaming into art, not how a film critic views the medium.

gst @ Dec 13th 2008 6:00PM

People "professionally trained" to review media shouldn't have such big heads over it.

Really, in what way is he professionally trained. I know there are many small nuances and details that only someone very familiar with film can pick up, and it takes a certain eloquence to describe what you did or did not like about a movie in specific but, at the end of the day, he's just giving his opinion.
An opinion which should be aggregated just like all the others on Rottentomatoes or some other site and formed into a metascore. So, let's see the metascore for "video games are/are not art."

DangerMouse @ Dec 13th 2008 6:14PM

Wait, who's opinion am i supposed to be waiting for so games can recognized as legitimate forms of art? And why does his/her opinion matter? This argument is tiresome. It's an opinion. So some geezers can't see how games are a form of art. Big deal.

Abscissa @ Dec 13th 2008 6:17PM

@gst: You're very right about all that, but even a metascore is still only moderately useful as it really only gauges overall popularity, not quality or how much a given person will like it.

Abscissa @ Dec 13th 2008 6:26PM

@DangerMouse: You're right, it *is* just Ebert's opinion. And *my* opinion is that Ebert is an arrogant douche. He can certainly have and express his opinion on games. But that doesn't mean I can't have and express my opinion on him.

aj @ Dec 13th 2008 6:50PM

If you need training or extensive experience to "get" games, then is it the fault of the person who doesn't get games, or is it the fault of game makers for not making them accessible?

I mean come on. I'm not a professional critic, but I know the difference between good films and bad films, good books and bad books, and good games and bad games. That's "common sense". And as much as I hate critics, Mr. Ebert is actually a pretty intelligent one (He wrote an entire book about why Rob Schneider sucks. Gotta love him.).

Gehodra @ Dec 13th 2008 6:51PM

@Abscissa

metascore isn't really popularity. The popularity is reflected through the number of votes in the metascore. The metascore itself is probably the best reflection of quality that we got. Not saying everyone will agree with the measurement, but since quality is subjective, the best you can do is ask a bunch of people what they think.

chispito @ Dec 13th 2008 6:56PM

Hello:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5ik3yHjP2I

Jay @ Dec 13th 2008 9:50PM

I met Roger Ebert a short time ago- my wife's bookstore had him signing. It's sad he still can't speak after having some tumors removed. Despite this, I found him to be a really nice guy. He's passionate about film, and always will be. It makes sense that he's threatened by games, because games threaten film.

The only time I'm ever disappointed in the gaming community is in how very defensive some of it's members get when some ignorant person attacks it. You don't convince people by yelling your opinion at them- you convince them when they respect you. We would do well to remember that when someone like Ebert takes a swing at gaming.

Magetto @ Dec 13th 2008 7:39PM

In defense of the guy I'd also think poorly of video games if all I was ever exposed to were all those atrocious video game film adaptations that have been made over the years.

offday @ Dec 14th 2008 10:51AM

I agree. He doesn't even know what art is himself. All the movies that he claims are amazing and inspirational and in reality boring pieces of pure crap. He's yet another movie critic who doesn't understand that people go to the movies to be entertained.

Rob @ Dec 14th 2008 8:25PM

Who cares what Roger Ebert says about anything?

Even movies, the guy's soul movie production was 'Beyond The Valley of The Dolls'

Really, some guy doesn't like anything mainstream. Who cares?

M. @ Dec 13th 2008 5:08PM

Ebert's a smart guy, a good guy, and to diss him because one of his ideas is old-fashioned and stupid is pretty short-sighted.

No wonder games and gamers have a bad reputation in some circles.

WRE @ Dec 13th 2008 5:18PM

Explain to me how Ebert is smart. Seriously. The guy's job involves assigning an "up" or "down" thumb to express his opinion about a film. Do any of you know a three year old that can't do that?

Also:
CARNOSAUR (Plot summary)
A brilliant geneticist, Diane Ladd, plans to expose a lethal virus to every human being on the planet. Her objective: to destroy humankind in favour of her new strain of prehistoric dinosaurs. Two people stand in the way of her diabolical plan, a cynical night watchman and a lovely idealistic environmentalist. The two must overcome their differences long enough to uncover the scientist's scheme and fight her carnivorous creations in a desperate battle against the extinction of the human race. Written by Concorde - New Horizons (with permission).

Dr. Jane Tiptree, a brilliant geneticist who feels that Dinosaurs need never die and with government funding arranges to bring back dinosaurs using chicken eggs (because some moron says dinosaurs are giant chickens). One of her new and improved carnosaurs escapes and runs amok in a small town while his big brother is waiting to be set loose on the city. Unless the truth can be unleashed, it could be a new dawn for dinosaurs driving mammals to extinction.

Ebert gave this "film" a "thumbs up", which means he probably considers it to be art. But as far as he is concerned no game has yet reached the pinnacle that is Carnosaur. Seriously, fuck this guy.

Temidien @ Dec 13th 2008 5:33PM

We diss him because he's ignorantly dissing an industry and an entertainment medium he knows nothing about.

Honestly, the kid started it first...

Kye says: Ich bin keine Grammatik Nazi! @ Dec 13th 2008 5:44PM

I disagree with the comment I'm replying to.

Everyone has a bad reputation in some circles.
Even devout, peaceful monks have a bad reputation in some circles.
You can't please everybody, so don't try.

Point is, this guy is badly judging something he opbviously knows very little about because he feels knowing alot about another thing gives him credit.

That makes him an ass.

If he doesn't like games then fair enough but there's no need to insult it.

Kye says: Ich bin keine Grammatik Nazi! @ Dec 13th 2008 5:50PM

Not that knitting can't be fun, I'm sure it is once you get the hang of cross-hitching or whatever it is they do. I just can't get the hang of it; and I'm fairly dextrous as well. Oh well, guess to each his own, but still, no need to diss another's hobby. Well, not diss but opine. But knitting... KNITTING?! Oh for the sake of f*ck and his best friend c*nt, you might as well have said you would rather be ass-raped in the face, with fire, than play one of the many Legends of Zelda or Tetris or...
Anyways I just don't think *he goes off into a rant to try and destress from a long busy day*

WRE @ Dec 13th 2008 5:52PM

Thanks a lot, Ebert, you bastard! You broke Kye's brain!

Finito @ Dec 13th 2008 6:01PM

WRE

I don't know about the actual movie but the premise doesn't sound too bad man. Dinosaurs are awesome. And it was apparently good enough to warrant 2 sequels.
Did you read the tagline for part three? 'Terror will never be extinct'. You see what they did there?

WRE @ Dec 13th 2008 6:07PM

Finito,

No, you're right, that does sound good. And two sequels? How could they go wrong?

Mr Khan @ Dec 13th 2008 8:37PM

But isn't thumbs up or thumbs down, 50/50, yes or no, buy or pass the ultimate end of what reviewing is supposed to go for? Should I buy it, or not.

Yes it's a bit too glib, but it's ultimately better than this scoring nonsense. Imagine if everyone did this: no more would be quibble about the difference between an 85 and an 87.5.

stupei ace defective @ Dec 14th 2008 6:42AM

WRE

Ebert does not necessarily believe a film has to be "art" in order to do what it is intended: which is to entertain. There are a great many artless films that entertain by fulfilling their specific objective. Sometimes that's a complex or moving story, sometimes that's awesome explosions or car chases. Ebert reviews each film on its individual merit -- admittedly less so when it falls within the horror genre -- and, to answer your first question, that's part of what makes him smart. More video game reviewers should follow that example by reviewing games based on how well they achieve the specific goals they set out to rather than whether or not a reviewer even likes those goals or ideas at all. That's something the consumer can certainly work out on their own.

Another thing that makes him smart is he gets that something can be entertainment without necessarily being art. You know, like the majority of our favorite video games are.

The Dark Wayne @ Dec 13th 2008 5:07PM

now look, I'm normally not this hostile, I understand that however much we want it we aren't going to have our favorite hobby immediately and completely accepted and loved by the entire world. But seriously, that knitting thing is unnecessary, fuck him

Sora @ Dec 13th 2008 5:24PM

To be fair, though, professional knitters probably make more than gaming journalists/reviewers...

Kye says: Ich bin keine Grammatik Nazi! @ Dec 13th 2008 5:38PM

I fully agree with the comment I'm replying to.

Stick to what you know.

Andy S. @ Dec 13th 2008 5:13PM

Above picture: Justin McElroy +30 years.

The Dark Wayne @ Dec 13th 2008 5:17PM

so much win right here

The Dark Wayne @ Dec 13th 2008 5:20PM

I think he is a valid recipient of the justin t mcelroy memorial burn of the day award

Snap Count @ Dec 13th 2008 5:32PM

I had to scroll back to the top to take another look......well played sir.

syrik zero @ Dec 13th 2008 5:14PM

Who can leave a half done tea cozy just sitting there?! Once I'm that far I just have to complete it

Jake11- Born and raised in W. Philly @ Dec 13th 2008 5:22PM

he looks like an old lesbian

The Dark Wayne @ Dec 13th 2008 5:22PM

God! I thought the same damn thing!

tmacairjordan87 @ Dec 13th 2008 5:23PM

Someone's a little jealous that the industry he reviews is getting steamrolled by games.

He would rather do knitting than review games? In before "teh gay" jokes.

Sora @ Dec 13th 2008 5:25PM

inb4 "It's 'the', not 'teh'."

DangerMouse @ Dec 13th 2008 5:27PM

Too late.

tmacairjordan87 @ Dec 13th 2008 5:28PM

Oh goddammit you're right Danger.

Some of you people are freakin fast >.

colinbell @ Dec 13th 2008 5:32PM

Maybe he thinks knitting is an art? And probably sucks at videogames as well.
But seriously, witht he level of graphics, effects and online features on today's games, he might soon see his market vanish. Why watch movies when you can be playing one?

Nicholas Muldoon @ Dec 13th 2008 5:33PM

Oh god, thanks for proving his point, folks. By lashing out very immaturely at a very well respected and intelligent writer just because his ideas about games are old-fashioned (because, surprise surprise, he's old =O) You guys are kind of making the case that the genre and it's hardcore are currently too immature to be taken seriously. Now look I've taken 4 years studying game design and the history of games and their place in pop culture right now along with minoring in film studies and the truth is that...Games...are..not...art, not yet at least. You guys seem so set on trying to defend your hobby against all attackers that you don't think it through. The game industry has yet to have anything though that has reached the heights of film or literature in terms of emotional resonance. We don't yet have a Metropolis, M, Citizen Kane, Casablanca, The Third Man and ya know what, folks? That's perfectly fine, it took the movie industry like nearly every form of art, nearly 45 years from it's start to even begin creating movies with with real artistic value. I think we're certainly on the cusp right now of seeing some games that may rival this, but we're not there yet.

Also seriously, this guy is over 80 years old, picking on him for not understanding gaming is just silly.

tmacairjordan87 @ Dec 13th 2008 5:37PM

We don't need to be taken seriously as we're the top dog right now. Our industry is crushing every other entertainment industry and we're playing ridiculous amounts of good games.

Besides, as we get older and ancient jackasses like Ebert die it's going to become as respected as all the others.

Abscissa @ Dec 13th 2008 5:44PM

"Now look I've taken 4 years studying game design and the history of games and their place in pop culture right now along with minoring in film studies and the truth is that"

If you switched to a *real* field (and spent more than an appallingly trivial 4 years in it), then we might actually care about your opinion.

Nicholas Muldoon @ Dec 13th 2008 5:52PM

I couldn't agree with you more, that's exactly why I'm going back to school, cause game design was definitely a waste of time. But thanks for lookin out, man

and also to the poster above, you've kind of deluded yourself. Sure we're the top dog right now in entertainment sales in terms of dollars, but we also take a bigger loss than any other entertainment industry each year and in actual units sold are outsold every month by the movie industry by about 2/1-sometimes 3/1

WRE @ Dec 13th 2008 6:04PM

Muldoon,
You're deluding yourself if you think "units sold" reflects anything. First of all, a game's price of admission is generally about 5 times what it costs to go see a movie. Second, the game will normally last a hell of a lot longer than 2 hours or so. In other words you could see 15 movies by the time you got to the half-point of Fallout 3 (give or take a few hours). So let's review. (You're going back to school, right?)

Units sold = No importance in this argument

Are you ready for the test?

Alien Lord @ Dec 13th 2008 6:06PM

Nicholas Muldoon, I mean Ebert, pretending to be a gamer is low, even for you.

Abscissa @ Dec 13th 2008 6:08PM

To be fair, it's not really that "game design" is a bad thing to study (as long as it's in addition to other things), it's just that half of the people from our generation have spent most of their lives studying it without ever needing to pay tuition to do it.

Nicholas Muldoon @ Dec 13th 2008 6:17PM

That's the problem,man, I did pay tuition, hah, and I'm regretting it.

Seriously folks, if you want a head up in the game industry taking design courses tends to waste time, oversaturation of trained people with not enough spots right now and it's far less creative than one would hope, normally it's just a day long chore of programing or sketching.

WRE: That's the thing though, people do watch dvds over and over again and the price tag was actually what I was pointing out in the last post. I'm saying far more people buy dvds right now than play games and we're really not "top dog" until we're outselling dvds in units and not just sales numbers. I personally don't have a Wii for example but it's at least nice to see something widening the margins of people who buy gaming hardware and software.

fred @ Dec 13th 2008 8:11PM

Hello Nicholas! I'm sorry if we come across as rude; we don't often get visitors from the 1980's. The truth of the matter is, at this point if you still can say with a straight face that video games are any less of an art form than movies you seriously need to take a refresher on what art is.
You can make an argument that gaming in general produces less "serious" or "introspective" pieces or what have you than movies or books or that the output is at a generally lower quality (in that case you would simply be wrong rather than retarded) but to seriously claim that games are not art, as if individual creations such as Half-Life or Psychonauts can not be called art as opposed to Casablanca or even Die Hard... well in that case you are simply being an elitist asshole. You are defining art as you please in a completely arbitrary manner.
It's been over 30 years and (some) video games can definitely be called art just as much as any movie.

Nicholas Muldoon @ Dec 13th 2008 9:59PM

I have no problem saying no game has yet rivaled Casablanca, Die Hard? Sure, easily, but not many people would consider Die Hard art.

MBO @ Dec 13th 2008 10:22PM

you must be a wii owner.

Moptimus Slime @ Dec 13th 2008 10:35PM

"Games...are..not...art"

hey pot, i dont like you cause your black! Seriously, if Okami and Beyond Good & Evil, or even Chrono Trigger and Zelda III aren't art, neither is the greatest movie ever made.

"We don't yet have a Metropolis, M, Citizen Kane, Casablanca, The Third Man"

yes, but we have Okami/anything by Clover, the Metal Gear series, Ocarina of Time, Beyond Good & Evil, Sands of Time, the latter half of the Dragon Quest Series, The World Ends With You, Final Fantasy VII, Chrono Trigger, Zelda III, Silent Hill II, the creative mind of Suda 51, games such as ElectroPlankton and Patapon, and many others.

"Also seriously, this guy is over 80 years old, picking on him for not understanding gaming is just silly."

Look pal, I dont know shit about science, thats why Im not working with alongside Gordon Freeman on the LHC. If he doesn't "understand" gaming, he should keep his old, wrinkly whore mouth shut.