The Seattle Tech Report ... reports that a motion (PDF link) filed last week in a Seattle, Washington lawsuit claims that Microsoft was aware of the widespread Xbox 360 disc scratching issues -- the console will severely scratch discs if tilted or moved during play -- before the console was launched in 2005. The motion, which seeks class action status for the lawsuit, cites quotes from a (currently sealed) document in which Microsoft employees claim that they were aware of the problem before the console was launched. The document quotes Microsoft program manager Hiroo Umeno who stated that the problem was discoverd in "September or October" 2005.
Microsoft supposedly considered several solutions to the problem prior to launch and rejected them all. Three solutions were considered, including increasing the disc holder's magnetic field, slowing disc rotation speed and installing "bumpers." The first was rejected because it would "interfere" with the disc loading mechanism, the second because it would extend game load times, and the third because it was too expensive (to the tune of $35 to $75 million). The only action taken by Microsoft, apparently, was to add a warning to the Xbox 360 manual. The company later applied a warning label onto the disc drive itself and established a program to replace scratched discs (for a fee).
Perhaps most damning, an outside consultant for the plaintiffs stated that both Sony and Nintendo's designs typically account for the possibility that a console will be moved while a disc is spinning.
Reader Comments (72)
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:48PM (Unverified) said
What a suprise - lol :P
Posted: Dec 16th 2008 12:07AM Laser Sanchez said
@mongoos32
Preventative measures? Like, putting the console on a friggin shelf, or watching where you step when you know there is an expensive on the floor? You're lucky you didn't break the system.
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Preventative measures? Like, putting the console on a friggin shelf, or watching where you step when you know there is an expensive on the floor? You're lucky you didn't break the system.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:49PM FxDr said
Damn you, angular momentum! Damn you, physics!
DAMN YOU TO HELL!
DAMN YOU TO HELL!
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:10PM (Unverified) said
Another useless class-action lawsuit...
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:54PM slyst said
I just don't understand. Why move the system when it is on in the first place? Could someone tell me the benefit of changing the console's orientation while it is being played. Just looking for a bit of support to why this deserves a lawsuit.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:57PM (Unverified) said
Agree 100%. There is no reason to move/shift/rotate a console while it is on....people don't flip their record players while they are on, do they?
This is ridiculous...greedy people trying to take advantage of the system to make up for their own stupidity. Never would I consider moving something that has moving parts while it is on, particularly something so valuable.
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This is ridiculous...greedy people trying to take advantage of the system to make up for their own stupidity. Never would I consider moving something that has moving parts while it is on, particularly something so valuable.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:12PM (Unverified) said
The disc can screw up even when it's stablized. I don't see the trouble in fixing something that doesn't occur in other consoles.
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Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:15PM Nomgoos3 said
What about accidents? I've tripped over my brother's 360 and scratched a game to the point where it wouldn't even run. Sure, I didn't sue Microsoft, but it still was just an accident. I'm just saying that a preventative measure would have saved my brothers the money to buy the game again.
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Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:17PM (Unverified) said
I agree that this is really a non-issue. No product in existence is completely immune to failure, especially when the product is not used as intended. Unless they are specifically designed to handle this sort of thing, it's not surprising that an optical drive would be orientation- and stability-dependent.
Something like the RRoD, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Of course, I think MS has acted in good faith in dealing with that issue as well.
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Something like the RRoD, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Of course, I think MS has acted in good faith in dealing with that issue as well.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:30PM (Unverified) said
I don't think this deals significantly with cases where people have been changing the orientation of the console during operation. One time my 360 was laying on a cable. I lifted it slightly, just enough to get the cable out from underneath and the disc got scratched.
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Posted: Jan 6th 2009 3:59PM (Unverified) said
I agree with you 100% it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you don't move a console while it is on. There are so many other problems with this garbage console that needs dealing with other then some idiots moving the system while it is on.
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Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:57PM (Unverified) said
How can they file a lawsuit, when it was their own fault? The manual clearly states that you shouldn't move it. If you do, it's your own fault. I suppose i can sue the military for any future damage they may make during a war?
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:30PM Druko said
exactly what I'm saying too.
If someone goes out and buys a chainsaw and goes out to cut wood but needs to take a phone call, he's (hopefully) not gonna try and stop the thing with his hands and then sue the company who built it.
If people can't be bothered to read the instruction manual for a $400 piece of technology, they really shouldn't be allowed to have it in the first place. :|
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If someone goes out and buys a chainsaw and goes out to cut wood but needs to take a phone call, he's (hopefully) not gonna try and stop the thing with his hands and then sue the company who built it.
If people can't be bothered to read the instruction manual for a $400 piece of technology, they really shouldn't be allowed to have it in the first place. :|
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 3:59PM (Unverified) said
As much as I love the Xbox 360 I have to admit that the build quality is extremely crap.
The original Xbox was built like an effin battle tank!!! Nothing could destroy that beast!
The original Xbox was built like an effin battle tank!!! Nothing could destroy that beast!
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:00PM (Unverified) said
I'm sorry but if you change the console from horizontal to vertical while the disc is spinning you deserve to have your discs scratched.
Is this not common sense?
Is this not common sense?
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:22PM (Unverified) said
Storytime:
Let's say mom is cleaning Billy's room while Billy is playing Gears of War 2. His console is lying flat on the floor, his mom asks him to move it so she can clean. Billy pauses his game, picks up the console, tilting it ever so slightly, SCRATCH.
Discs shouldn't be able to be damaged this way. CD Walkmans for years have perfected moving and playing a music CD. Why is this one game console different?
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Let's say mom is cleaning Billy's room while Billy is playing Gears of War 2. His console is lying flat on the floor, his mom asks him to move it so she can clean. Billy pauses his game, picks up the console, tilting it ever so slightly, SCRATCH.
Discs shouldn't be able to be damaged this way. CD Walkmans for years have perfected moving and playing a music CD. Why is this one game console different?
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:42PM (Unverified) said
Well you are talking about a portable device, that was meant to be moved around.
Also portable discman's had a CD read speed of 1 - 2x. Pretty slow, which im sure is one of the reasons they are able to do that.
The dvd drive in the 360 is 12X, around 8000 RPM.
Anyway, my point being, the 360 is not a portable device akin to a discman that you can jostle around "a bit"
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Also portable discman's had a CD read speed of 1 - 2x. Pretty slow, which im sure is one of the reasons they are able to do that.
The dvd drive in the 360 is 12X, around 8000 RPM.
Anyway, my point being, the 360 is not a portable device akin to a discman that you can jostle around "a bit"
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:45PM (Unverified) said
To ryan,
How about that kid should be asking himself why his mom is cleaning his room. And then asking himself why and how he's playing gears of war when he's not old enough to buy the game. And if he is old enough to buy the game, he should be ashamed that his mommy is still cleaning his room.
Regardless of what you think microsoft should have done with the console, there is a warning that we are all aware of. Don't move the console with a disc in the tray. It shouldn't be microsofts fault if you're too lazy to hit a button and eject the disc before you move it.
If you tripped over it, perhaps you shouldn't leave a $400 piece of equipment in a walking path? Come on people, that thing on top of your shoulders is there for a reason, try using it for once.
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How about that kid should be asking himself why his mom is cleaning his room. And then asking himself why and how he's playing gears of war when he's not old enough to buy the game. And if he is old enough to buy the game, he should be ashamed that his mommy is still cleaning his room.
Regardless of what you think microsoft should have done with the console, there is a warning that we are all aware of. Don't move the console with a disc in the tray. It shouldn't be microsofts fault if you're too lazy to hit a button and eject the disc before you move it.
If you tripped over it, perhaps you shouldn't leave a $400 piece of equipment in a walking path? Come on people, that thing on top of your shoulders is there for a reason, try using it for once.
Posted: Dec 18th 2008 10:35PM (Unverified) said
Hello and let me tell you a little something. First if Sony AND Nintendo were able to "anticipate" it and correct a problem why cant the biggest Corp. in America?
Secondly Microsoft has no place in the Hardware industry as Bill Gates himself gave ALL rights in the hardware industry to everyone else in the early 80's so he could make a fortune with SOFTWARE. Never should Microsoft have made a console when they have no business in the Hardware industry. Like the fated ZUNE, the two biggest Pieces of S**t I have ever heard of.
Oh I forget, Anyone will fall for a big name when NOONE ever pays attention to the facts.
If you are thinking I'm biased......I am as I am a hardware guru and have 2 degrees in computer programming. So I think I have some insight on the matter.......
Ignorance must be bliss
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Secondly Microsoft has no place in the Hardware industry as Bill Gates himself gave ALL rights in the hardware industry to everyone else in the early 80's so he could make a fortune with SOFTWARE. Never should Microsoft have made a console when they have no business in the Hardware industry. Like the fated ZUNE, the two biggest Pieces of S**t I have ever heard of.
Oh I forget, Anyone will fall for a big name when NOONE ever pays attention to the facts.
If you are thinking I'm biased......I am as I am a hardware guru and have 2 degrees in computer programming. So I think I have some insight on the matter.......
Ignorance must be bliss
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:01PM (Unverified) said
Here's a novel idea...instead of being stupid and moving the console while it's playing, how about use common sense and don't. Microsoft made their share of mistakes with the 360 launch, but to blame them for a system damaging a disk because you moved it while the disk was spinning at 15k RPM or more is just dumb. Consumers should have to be held accountable for some things...
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:26PM Mazrael said
(not to be an a)
It spins at 7,500rpm.. far faster than I thought it was.. I think Myth Busters showed a disc spinning 5,200-5,600rpm & the thing shatters.. they show how much the disc distorts because it's on a high speed drill, easily an inch each way
so yeah, you have to be a pretty dumb... to be moving the console while your playing a game
(the 360 HDDs spin either 5,600 or 7,200 but are made of sterner stuff, but have quicker seek times)
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It spins at 7,500rpm.. far faster than I thought it was.. I think Myth Busters showed a disc spinning 5,200-5,600rpm & the thing shatters.. they show how much the disc distorts because it's on a high speed drill, easily an inch each way
so yeah, you have to be a pretty dumb... to be moving the console while your playing a game
(the 360 HDDs spin either 5,600 or 7,200 but are made of sterner stuff, but have quicker seek times)
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:00PM Mazrael said
shows they were doing the testing then.. aren't you supposed to test things by dropping, knocking, kicking.. sitting on.. anything you could possibly do.. it's dumb that they released it with all these faults.. we may get a ton of games to play, but it's a gamble just turning on the console.. In two years of excessive play I've never got the 'jackpot' just the disc unreadable & screwed red/green..
I actually remember the UK Official 360 mag showing what all the warning lights mean on the console launch issue..
why not wait a year, fine tune the console get it spot on (build wise)..
I actually remember the UK Official 360 mag showing what all the warning lights mean on the console launch issue..
why not wait a year, fine tune the console get it spot on (build wise)..
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:02PM (Unverified) said
Ya, ok Microsoft knew turning the console on its side with a game in the tray caused damage to the disc. I'm pretty sure chain saw manufactures know that if swallowing a running chain saw will cause a slight throat irritation.
(This is dumb go buy a disc dr. (my cat knocked my xbox over this fixed it))
(This is dumb go buy a disc dr. (my cat knocked my xbox over this fixed it))
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:01PM jkdoug said
I returned my first system after only a week (Christmas Day to New Year's Day) because I transported it with a disc in the drive and it messed up not only the disc but also the drive itself. I did not move the system while it was on and the disc was spinning, either.
Still, I think the lawsuit is rubbish because there IS a warning. If you're illiterate, how is that Microsoft's problem?
Still, I think the lawsuit is rubbish because there IS a warning. If you're illiterate, how is that Microsoft's problem?
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:02PM tann said
well
why?
i thought everyone knew not to move it while it was on:S
i mean, why would you...?
unless of course you're trying to play halo on a bouncy castle full of kids... that could lead to a scratched disc, lol
why?
i thought everyone knew not to move it while it was on:S
i mean, why would you...?
unless of course you're trying to play halo on a bouncy castle full of kids... that could lead to a scratched disc, lol
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:03PM (Unverified) said
If this is the case, can I sue LG, or Western Digital because i tipped my computer on its side while the DVD and Hard Drive platters were spinning and screwed something up.
Redonkulous.
Redonkulous.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:08PM BreadMan said
Can i tip my dvd player on it's side while playing and sue for the dvd player scratching my disc?
Some people are morons. Use common sense. You make us fan boys look stupid.
Some people are morons. Use common sense. You make us fan boys look stupid.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:16PM TonyRockyHorror said
MS will also replace any scratched game disc you have. all you have to do is send in your original, scratched disc, and they will mail you a replacement. takes a little time, but it really isn't that big of a deal.
these chumps are just hoping for a settlement.
these chumps are just hoping for a settlement.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:55PM HazyCloud said
ANY Microsoft game, not just any game. Must be on this list.
* Crackdown™
* Fuzion Frenzy 2
* Gears Of War®
* Halo® 2
* Halo® 3
* Kameo™: Elements of Power™
* Ninja Gaiden II™
* Perfect Dark Zero™
* Project Gotham Racing® 3
* Too Human™
* Viva Piñata™
* Xbox Live® Arcade Unplugged Vol. 1
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* Crackdown™
* Fuzion Frenzy 2
* Gears Of War®
* Halo® 2
* Halo® 3
* Kameo™: Elements of Power™
* Ninja Gaiden II™
* Perfect Dark Zero™
* Project Gotham Racing® 3
* Too Human™
* Viva Piñata™
* Xbox Live® Arcade Unplugged Vol. 1
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:22PM d889 said
sadly i jacked up my Skate disc by moving it while it was on, but i dont blame microsoft ... i was stupid enough to turn it from vertical to horizontal while turned on .... but im my defense i was drunk.
havnt scratched anything since that (2006 model), but i have noticed that if you have the box sitting vertical it does tend to start leaving marks on the disc even if you dont move it. thats why i leave mine the other way.
havnt scratched anything since that (2006 model), but i have noticed that if you have the box sitting vertical it does tend to start leaving marks on the disc even if you dont move it. thats why i leave mine the other way.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 4:34PM ArnoldPalmerTea said
Meh, i hit the power button with enough force to tip mine over... and now my $60.00 game won't play any more. I wouldn't be so pissed off if Ubisoft started a similar program, I am sure that the disk itself costs less than $60 to produce. I am basically spending $55.00 to buy the rights to play the game. I feel like since I have bought the rights to play, I shouldn't be charged a second time to play it. I just want to be able to replace the game for a fee at least half of the price of the game itself. I have no quarrels with Microsoft, just the publishers that refuse to have a disk replacement policy on a problem that "may" occur.
Posted: Dec 16th 2008 12:17AM Laser Sanchez said
You might want to try taking the game back to the store. They might be cool enough to let you switch it out for another copy.
Also, the controller has a power button right on it, for future reference.
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Also, the controller has a power button right on it, for future reference.
Posted: Dec 16th 2008 6:00PM Dragsy said
We're told at the shop where I work to recommend that customers lie the 360 flat, as the laser unit can wobble or move closer to the disc or...something (it's never been fully explained) and end up scratching the discs, so it's not just moving the console that can cause it. Looks fucking stupid stood upright anyway, and it's way easier to knock over.
And this lawsuit is stupid, they knew about the issue, they forewarned users about it in the manual. Yeah, htey could've been a bit smarter/spent a bit more money constructing a failsafe, but it's not like they shipped it with the problem, refused to acknowledge it or offer any support afterwards.
And this lawsuit is stupid, they knew about the issue, they forewarned users about it in the manual. Yeah, htey could've been a bit smarter/spent a bit more money constructing a failsafe, but it's not like they shipped it with the problem, refused to acknowledge it or offer any support afterwards.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 5:05PM (Unverified) said
I understand the reason you posted this info X3F, but could you please put the back story behind the lawsuit so that our friendly trolls know all the facts before commencing to comment. The lawsuit has nothing to do with him moving his 360, it was based on the fact that MS replacement would not cover him because all of the games damaged were not produced by MS. Although this information is important, you need to make sure that people have all of the information, not just what you wish to post. but yeah, FCK MS and speaking of MS, i hope Cliffy B gets MS and his lambo gets fcking totalled by a dump TRUCK! GEARS 2 sucks, and they would rather sell sh1t than fix it! FCK OFF and DIE
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 5:38PM Laser Sanchez said
I hear Micro$oft knows that when you take a bunch of steel wool to the disc, it gets scratched. What a bunch of jerks.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 6:06PM (Unverified) said
I agree.
This isn't the RRoD.
Its not something that is out of control.
You just can't move the console while the game is playing.
This isn't the RRoD.
Its not something that is out of control.
You just can't move the console while the game is playing.
Posted: Dec 16th 2008 1:45PM (Unverified) said
blkant..
if ppl choose to be poor and be stupid thats their fault.. there fore they goona get fucked in the ass by ppl and companies.. lol
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if ppl choose to be poor and be stupid thats their fault.. there fore they goona get fucked in the ass by ppl and companies.. lol
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 6:12PM (Unverified) said
Thats M$ for you :) Bunch of lying arrogant pricks who do nothing but take advantage of the poor and stupid :D
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 6:16PM mt1 said
"The only action taken by Microsoft, apparently, was to add a warning to the Xbox 360 manual. "
How can you have a lawsuit when it clear states in the manual not to do something, wow i guess most peole dont RTFM!
How can you have a lawsuit when it clear states in the manual not to do something, wow i guess most peole dont RTFM!
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 6:32PM (Unverified) said
What a surprise, another moron suing for their own stupidity. I guess we should assume that microsoft is responsible for protecting us from our stupidity, like government. God forbid someone admit they made a mistake or take any responsibility for themselves.
It's common knowledge you don't turn anything with a disk spinning in it. Better go tip your pc, then sue them when it screws up your hardrive or disks, you know, since the maker should assume we're idiots.
It's common knowledge you don't turn anything with a disk spinning in it. Better go tip your pc, then sue them when it screws up your hardrive or disks, you know, since the maker should assume we're idiots.
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 6:57PM (Unverified) said
MS need to implement a slot-drive rather than building one yourself (as seen in other articles)
Posted: Dec 15th 2008 7:44PM (Unverified) said
I've never had a disc scratched, and neither has anyone I know except for one time when my friend turned the console with the disc spinning. It tells you not to in the manual, but people are too stupid, lazy and impatient to do that anymore.
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