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Reader Comments (44)

Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:13PM (Unverified) said

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Here's a novel concept: "pirates" see no problem with not compensating someone for their hard work, because they're morally stunted and have only a vague understanding of how real life works.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 5:52PM Bootes said

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Pirates like any group are made up of many different people. Sure some just don't care and will pirate releases no matter what, but there's nothing you can do about these people. You might as well ignore them, because you will never change their minds and they're often the people that wouldn't buy the game if that was their only way to play it.

Others do have legitimate reasons to pirate games and the publisher/developer should pay attention to these reasons. The goal of the publishers/developers is to sell more copies of their games. This is not going to happen by ignoring and/or attacking possible customers. I don't agree these people saying they downloaded a game just to get back at the publisher abut DRM, but honestly no game should include any DRM other than a CD key. The CD key is all that is needed to protect a multiplayer game. Assuming the developers don't do something stupid, it works well and prevents piracy almost all the time. It's pretty much useless on a singleplayer game, but so is all DRM. Any singleplayer DRM will be cracked very quickly and the DRM will only inconvenience people that actually payed for the game while the pirates actually get a better experience.

Also many people do go around attacking pirates blindly, but many really are just testing a possible purchase. The new LOTR Conquest game was recently released for the PC, PS3, and X360. All but the PC received demos. While this game may seem interesting to me, I'm reminded of Mercenaries 2 which was recently released by the same publisher/developer team. Mercs 2 was terrible and ran horribly. The lack of a demo makes me feel as if they're trying to hide something like a badly optimized game, especially because they have a history of doing this. I might pirate Conquest, see it runs well, and choose to buy it. (Especially because it's really a MP game and typically you can't play pirated PC games online). However, because they released a bad product before, I'd never blindly trust Pandemic to release a good game again.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 7:59AM Ghen said

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2/3 ain't bad. I have no problem being a pirate because I'm morally stunted but I absolutely know how the world goes round.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:19PM (Unverified) said

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I think a legitimate, non-staged looking sincere talk with pirates would go a long way towards those customers who are more inclined not to pirate. Put up a YouTube video of a lead designer or something just talking, in front of his camera, in his living room. Something simple yet more personal than obnoxious warning label or DRM.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:41PM Mr Khan said

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The problem is, that comes off as more obnoxious. I for one would interpret it as a cheesy stunt, since you *know* that developer, however legitimately concerned he/she be, is only doing this as a plug for some fatcat publishing guru only worried about his bottom line

Now, perhaps someone who's no longer working in the industry could make a less suspicious plea, but if it's anyone who is currently working in the biz, any "testimony" will be automatically suspect
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:33PM jynxycat said

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It's funny that pirating music isn't looked upon the same as pirating software.

It requires just slightly more know-how, but is just as an issue.

Anyone that condemns software pirates with whatever slanderous remark cannot say they have never downloaded any music in their life.

Pot. Kettle.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:42PM (Unverified) said

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I don't pirate music or games. I hate to break it to you, but I'm not the only person who purchases their music legally.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:41PM jynxycat said

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So sweet and naive.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:43PM Mr Khan said

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I don't pirate music, i record directly off of internet radio (when i have a mind), something that nobody ever complained about before

:P
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:09PM vidguy said

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"i record directly off of internet radio (when i have a mind), something that nobody ever complained about before"

Actually, I'm pretty sure A LOT of record companies complained about that when it was REAL radio and audio cassettes doing the recording. And now that you can make a perfect digital copy rather than a junky analog one, it is only a matter of time before someone balks.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 12:29AM Zoinks said

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Just because you've downloaded music or anything else illegally in the past doesn't mean you can't tell others not to do the same.

Would you say a convicted murderer has no business telling others not to kill?
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 1:53AM (Unverified) said

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Just because you're a hypocrite, doesn't make you wrong.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 7:35AM (Unverified) said

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I don't pirate music. Zune Marketplace Pass. Stealing is stealing.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:38PM (Unverified) said

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Piracy isn't a new thing, anyway. Even when there was no copy protection besides writing in a word from the manual, it was still easy enough to pirate games if you knew someone that had it. It's just that with the prevalence of the internet, it's very easy to do at no charge and (reasonably) no foul. The developers are out of sight, out of mind. Most pirates I've encountered do so because they like to try before they buy, and since most games that come out are bad, not much gets bought. People prey on consumers to buy crappy things.

Infomercials are an example of this same situation. Some of the infomercials have products which are good, but most of them are really bad and crappy and a cheap way to make money. Same with games. The difference is that with games there's a means to try before you buy that infomercials don't present.

The pirates who just blindly grab things with no care to the people who worked on it are not going to be swayed by anything. Look at Sins of a Solar Empire, a good game and exactly what some pirates complain about. Yet, I imagine it is heavily pirated like everything else. Some people just don't care.

The anti-piracy ads about stealing cars and piracy being one-in-the-same have it wrong. If you gave people a way of getting cars as easily as piracy, I imagine they would do it.

I think this article has it right. Game companies need to focus on making games good. The profits the game needs to bring in to recoup the development cycle can't be the main concern, because then you have a game that exists to recover losses and not to entertain. Why do you think Miyamoto continues to make games that people enjoy and buy? His paramount concern is making the game enjoyable.

Other developers need to adopt this attitude, and I believe they'll see their sales going up.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:39PM ROBOCOLOSSUS said

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I just like free games.

inb4 minusstorm
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 8:53PM (Unverified) said

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This article makes the assumption pirates have the money for games and are willing to spend it.

"Another likely example is that I would imagine piracy is down on NES/SNES titles available on WiiWare."

I really seriously doubt that.

Personally I think developers should just stop developing for platforms that have massive piracy problems. They have to realize that they're probably losing more customers by making games for a 'wide open' platform than they are making on legitimate customers.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:08PM SheppyReturns said

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This poster makes the assumption that inability to pay for something is a seperate issue of entitlement towards that issue. I heard the arguement that somehow not affording an item validates the stealing of an item but it's still silly.

It's like this. If I cannot afford a Porsche, I'm not suddenly entitled to steal one from a car lot. If I cannot afford a Porsche, I cannot afford a Porsche.

Video games are a luxury item. Period. They are unessential to survival thus indefensable as a target for theft. The person just wanted to steal something. And here's the saddest part. Of most software pirates, very few will actually consume even a fraction of what they've stolen.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:31PM Otimus said

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But the thing is, though, Wise_old_bird, that if enough people are pirating instead of buying, then maybe lowering the price IS a viable option.

In comparison to all other entertainment mediums, videogames have forever been stunted with really insane prices. Look at movies! Movies cost a hell of a lot more to make than games, and they're damned cheap. Sure, you could say it's because that market is much more massive. Well, the videogame market would be JUST as massive if it were cheaper.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:32PM Otimus said

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actually, I meant to direct that at sheppy. Woops.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 10:36PM SheppyReturns said

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Well, Otis, that's fine in theory however...

The video game industries source of income is dramatically different from the movie industry. After all, you're not charged $8.50 just to look at a game. Which, incidently, is often where movies break even. But going beyond that, movies have DVD releases which are often pure profit. Meanwhile, no game companies are getting paid so that Television Networks can show their game on television.

In other words, aside from DLC, the only means of income for these game developers IS the high priced game and the hope and prayer that they'll somehow sell enough to be eligible for a greatest hits program.

Of course the price point question is still rendered entirely moot by the fact that some of the heavier PC pirated games range from $10-$20. Thieves will find a way to validate their thieving ways.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:28PM Otimus said

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People pirate things for a number of reasons, and I have no research to back it up, but I'd say it SEEMS like it comes down to this
75% Everything is too expensive, and developers have long abandoned pricing within reason, and instead, are priced at what will sell enough to maximize profits. (i.e. the poor developer who would actually benefit from pricing a game high, has to lower it's price to appeal, whilst the big massive game, can price it's game as high as it wants, because it's going to get sells regardless.. i.e., Halo 3 would have profited if it were $10.)

20% Pirate because they simply want everything, and don't care. Especially on platformers where it's easy, like the PC and the DS. Digital distrobution would help a lot if it were also priced within reason. But it isn't. It's usually priced the same (or more) as retail.

5% pirate because of DRM, and other issues.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:42PM BigD145 said

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Just for everyone's infoormation, the US has been in a recession for over a year now and if you calculate unemployment using the same methodology as was used in '29, you'd get similar numbers. Add in that the national savings rate is even lower (negative rather than positive or nill) than it was back in the 30's and you've got a bunch of people with idle hands and little cash. I don't know about you, but $60 for a shitty game is a bit too much. What's worse is that you really want some entertainment, but you're unlikely to know which game is shitty and if it'll even work on your particular computer setup. If you go the other direction and pick up a bargain bin game, who's to say that '95 game will work on your XP machine that's got an old failing optical drive. It'd be so much easier to find a no-CD crack and install using an iso/mdf image and DAEMON Tools.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:42PM BigD145 said

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Pardon my spelling there. 'information'
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 9:50PM Special Agent Steve said

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ZOMG, pirates are invading the internetz!!! KRAKEN!!!
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:03PM vidguy said

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It really is the truth that a large percentage of pirates would pay for the content if it was delivered properly. Music piracy showed a market desire for digital downloads and, blamo, iTunes took off. Youtube is creating a market for "free" content (that is, ad-supported) on sites like hulu. The fact that iTunes now offers DRM-free downloads at a premium price shows that people are willing to /pay/ to not be limited in their use of content.

While I don't think this is a valid justification for piracy, it should certainly give corporations an incentive to look at their piracy problems in a new, productive light rather than reaching for the lawsuit button (although, as an IP lawyer in training, I'm okay with frequent pressing of that button).

In reality, rampant piracy is a problem only as far as companies don't adapt to it. Did Microsoft really need to charge something like 10,000% of its variable costs to cover development costs, or could it have made as much money AND REDUCED PIRACY by charging a reasonable price for its product?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:17PM SheppyReturns said

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Actually, music piracy has NOT gone down. Neither has movie piracy. Offering a painless digital distrobution model is a great idea and would go far to prevent piracy. Except for the whole 90% piracy rate (I seriously doubt those numbers but still) of World of Goo. Which, I might add, had two distinct advantages that shoots your theory to shit.

1. No DRM whatsoever. In fact, even in Steam, you can run World of Goo in offline mode for infinity.

2. Cheap price. Even if you ignored the same two weeks ago where you could get it for $10, it's full price is $20.

Despite these two major excuses people give for piracy, World of Goo was pirated to hell and back. Fact of the matter is piracy is an undefeatable problem and something companies will have to live with. But on the other side of the coin, thieves will have to learn to be called thieves without thinking of hundreds of bullshit excuses on why they steal. If they steal, they are hurting the industry. But they have all these reasons why they are somehow entitled to free shit.

The ONLY place where I think piracy is justified is actually in the learning of high powered applications. A student working hard on his art degree isn't going to have the $700 for Photoshop and $2000 for Maya lying around. However that student, unlike the legitimate purchasers, are not trying to profit from their copy of the software. This is a bit of a "blind eye" widely accepted by the high end application industry. Take, as an example, Crytech. When they first showed off FarCry, Alias noticed they were posting 3DSM screens but the company didn't have licenses. Overnight the company bought 50 licenses and nothing was said. Piracy of applications like this allow people who cannot afford to learn these trades to enter a highly technical field. But even then, it's an highly ethical grey area.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:33PM vidguy said

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I'm not suggesting that providing a legal market will eliminate piracy, but over time it will decrease it. Surely a respectable percentage of the persons who pay for iTunes downloads at one point in time pirated music from Napster, et al. Piracy may not have gone down simply because new pirates replaced the old. Getting rid of /these/ pirates is simply a matter of appeasing them with a legal method.

Piracy is probably the crime most explainable by cost-benefit analysis. $700 for Photoshop is much more to an art student than an international corporation. The benefit of Photoshop is much higher to an art student than a law student. Hence, an art student is more likely to pirate Photoshop. Adobe could fix this by simply charging the art student less. This is price discrimination, and it happens in many markets and is an economically desirable pricing model.

Why was World of Goo so highly pirated? Could it be that it was easily pirated and that people weren't willing to pay $20 for the game? Providing a more attractive legal market for the game would have been one step on preventing piracy, as I'm sure the drop to $10 was intended to do.

"However that student, unlike the legitimate purchasers, are not trying to profit from their copy of the software." - this is exactly why, by the way, your example should be (and probably is) covered by the fair use exception to copyright law.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:35PM (Unverified) said

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Mark, I think your missing the boat a little bit. I agree that release date staggering and frustration lead to piracy but its not the main reason.

I believe the main reason is: Convenience. If it is easy to download a game and play it for free without consequence, why not? I as well as most users on joystiq readers may not identify with pirating games, however, we know or know of the "real pirates" you describe.

Lets discuss music piracy. Same reason. Convenience. It takes mere seconds/minutes to download a song(s) or album. Limewire is free to download and has millions (if not billions) of songs. The sound quality may stink and the download might be a virus, but that doesn't stop the pirate.

The answer is not DRM. The answer is hardware that has a built in piracy solution. The PS3 is the single best example I can think of. It has multi levels of security (including the disc) that isn't intrusive yet prevents free loaders from playing copied games.

The bottom line is that many people pirate because its easy, free and otherwise don't see the worth that goes into game/entertainment. You may even argue pirates have questionable morals, however many people don't see media as something you should pay for. I wish that people wouldn't pirate but its not going to go away. It must be assumed that consumers will pirate if given the chance. A fail-safe hardware solution is the only way to prevent it.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2009 11:42PM vidguy said

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"The sound quality may stink and the download might be a virus, but that doesn't stop the pirate."

I disagree. I know at least a half dozen people who stopped downloading, and starting purchasing, music because of the better availability, better quality, and lack of viruses on songs purchased from iTunes or elsewhere.

Make the market better in some way and a large chunk will follow.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 3:47AM (Unverified) said

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Your argument for the PS3 is flawed based on the simple fact that the protocol for blue ray disks has already been hacked already, if I remember correctly twice now.

DRM in software or on hardware is a stupid idea that only hurts the paying customer and has no real effect on pirates.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 10:26AM MarkMethenitis said

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This really isn't my supposition, so much, as it is Jason Holtman's theory. And from Valve's standpoint, their games are readily available on Steam (albeit not free). It's Jason's observation that much of the piracy they have seen over the years relates to a customer base not being served as well as they could be. I'm really just expanding on Jason's idea in a 'If you want to believe this theory, then here's where you could go with it' kind of way.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 11:09AM (Unverified) said

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Vidguy, I respectfully disagree. More people I know download songs for free than pay for them. It is flawed to inductively say this is true for all, I know. This does not mean that illegal downloads and pirating are not common though. I used to and my brothers (dispite my warnings) still download music illegally. The sound quality is not a worry to youth who cannot afford music. Likewise, money is a big concern and obstacle for all individuals. Gaming is an expensive habit. There is a reason why many gamers are broke every Fall. If you can't afford it...download it for free is the mindset of these people.

Joel, I don't recall the PS3 security being intrusive and hardware slowing DRM. The only people that aren't happy with PS3 security are people who wouldn't mind pirating. Why is it a problem that you can't play bootleg games? If you want homebrew you can mess with Linux. Otherwise, it shouldn't be a concern DRM is preventing the playing of illegal games.

Also, it is a bit more difficult to crack PS3 games than blu-ray discs. Each game has to be cracked individually. Try searching a torrent site and you will see what I mean. The size of PS3 games are a deterrent in themselves.

Mark, I wasn't lambasting you and your article, I was trying to give my own opinion. Sorry if you took my comment wrong. I understand your article was in response another commentary/article.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 12:40AM (Unverified) said

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I pirate games because of the secondary market. Something has to be done about people selling used games for absurd prices. I could either pay some guy in New Jersey 300$ for a copy of Persona on Playstation, or I could download a game that hasn't been on store shelves for years for free because I want to play it.

Of course, I agree that most people who pirate games are just tards who don't want to pay for things. I think the industry should just deal with it. Games are still selling. Just like people still buy CDs and go to see movies despite how awful piracy is.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 7:07AM (Unverified) said

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I'd say, scientifically, that 10% of pirates are disgruntled customers.

I'd base that on the WorldOfGoo blog, which has the only really detailed breakdown of piracy that i've seen. But really we need some decent research into the issue, otherwise everything is based on flimsy assumptions.

Basically most games have a 90% piracy rate. (at least this has been independently claimed by a number of devs over the last few years).

World of Goo mitigated all the usual concerns cited by pirates. It wasn't stale, it wasn't expensive, it didn't have DRM, it had a demo, it was also available on steam, it was available in all regions, its devs were nice people and had a good community. It got around 80% piracy.

While this is better than most DRM encumbered games (and show that devs paying for DRM are being conned), it wasn't a dramatic drop.

Of course, a related question is how many of those people were ONCE disgruntled customers, who have now become so used to piracy that they will likely never go back to buying games.

There are also other issues to take into account.
- Most movie pirates are actually the ones who buy the most DVDs.... its more of the completionist drive that they have to get everything thats available. Maybe that also applied to gamers... so you are maybe suing your BEST customers.
- A fair proportion of childhood/student pirates will become paying customers in the future once they have a job.

Personally I don't worry much about DRM, but I've been driven to mod/download when games simply aren't available in my region. This is very frustrating... its like a carrot on a stick.
The danger is that once you've modded your console and downloaded one title... its so easy that it takes a huge amount of willpower not to do it again next time... so companies driving people to piracy even once are running the risk of losing them forever.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 4:53PM DimensionWarped said

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I'll have you know I'm one of those pirates who ganked World of Goo only to buy it a week later. Piracy of World of Goo is similar to piracy of Pocket Tanks. Its easy to share among friends (how I got it the first time) and is likely to be a reluctant purchase if you haven't given it some time.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 7:35AM (Unverified) said

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I have to say that proper worldwide releases of games could help a lot. Europe in particular is skipped far too often.

Still no release at all for Mega Man 6, Suikoden 3, Xenosaga 1 or 3, Earthbound, Startropics 2, the three Final Fantasy Legend games...
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 10:30AM Nomgoos3 said

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I'd like to take this pirating idea to movies and tv shows as well. For a student, like myself, I enjoy watching The Office, Heroes, Mad Men, Chuck, etc. each week. However, I am studying abroad in Germany where I don't have the option to watch them by any means other than ridiculous prices.

If I wanted to stay up to beat on my shows, I would have payed over $200 in the past 4 months, and if I'm going to have to pay that much, I might as well be getting the rest of the network as well. These networks are asking for a price that is close to the equivalent of a month of a cable subscription for a single season of a show. Now I'm not saying that the writers, actors, and other necessary workers for these shows don't deserve it, but they most certainly are asking a lot from a public struggling to pay their next rent, mortgage or school loan payment.

I think piracy would reduce if either the prices of digital episodes were to decrease --or have special features you'd find on a DVD disc, which would add to the money/content ratio-- or a full on subscription service that allows me to watch whatever I want, whenever I want, where-ever I want. I would pay quite a bit monthly for a service like this, so long as I was able to access it from anywhere. I'm surprised none of the big networks have done this yet, even though Slingbox is allowing many people to do this already. I just find it absurd that I'd have to double dip to stay up-to-date on shows just because I'm in a different country for six months.

The only games I've really pirated were ROMs for NES/SNES when the Virtual Console didn't even exist, and I was unable to get them through any other viable means. Frustration was key to this --as well as being out of the loop when my friends brought them up in conversation. I haven't pirated a game since the early 00's (is that what this decade is called?), and it has to do with the fact that I'm satisfied with the prices of games, and I have the opportunity to go to a friend's house and play the ones I'm missing and vice versa. As far as I'm concerned, that is not illegal activity.

My mom always told me I should share, and I'm perfectly fine sharing under the 'bring-it-to-my-house-and-we'll-play-it-together' agreement. How else am I going to play Super Smash Bros. with my friends?
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 10:36AM MarkMethenitis said

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Doesn't NBC stream their shows for free on their website? So, really, there isn't much excuse to pirate it.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 10:42AM Nomgoos3 said

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You can't view any of their streaming content outside of the United States. This is the same for all other networks as well. I tried earlier this year to reroute my IP to fool NBC's website to thinking I was in the US, but the lag and quality were so bad it wasn't even worth it.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 1:37PM 343 Guilty Fart said

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I pirate stuff because it's just as easy to pirate something as it is to buy it. For example, I'm driving home from work and hear a song on the radio I like (this happens daily). I get home, now I could spend 99 cents at iTunes, or, with the same amount of effort, double click Soulseek, type in the name of the song, and within a minute I've got the song. The only music I pay for is for bands that I have a connection with, usually bands that I know have a small following, and buying the album makes me feel like I have more of a emotional connection with them. But when it comes to d/l the latest insert-big-star-here's song, I could care less whether they get my 99 cents.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 7:23PM (Unverified) said

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Examining piracy numbers in a vacuum is irrelevant and stupid. Who cares if World of Goo *MIGHT* have had a 90% piracy rate? It's currently the best-selling PC game on Amazon, besting The Sims 3 and WoW. Plus it's had how many sales on Steam and Impulse?

The only numbers that matter are sales and costs. How much money are we making and how much did we spend to make it? As Brad Wardell of Stardock Software always says, you're better off focusing on your customers than pissing them off in a misguided effort to deter piracy.

If you just look at torrent numbers, you'd wonder how any digital media provider stays in business.
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Posted: Jan 15th 2009 9:20PM BritC said

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A few weeks ago, I had written a (very long) post about how digital-creators (and software/game developers in particular) can deal with piracy. (Google "Digital Survival in the Age of Piracy". Or follow the link: http://www.atomicboysoftware.com/blog/2008/12/digital-survival-in-the-age-of-piracy/ )

I have to admit that I think the main reason people pirate is because free is better than paying. My own personal experiences with pirates (whom I know personally) seems to confirm this view. I also think that most pirates don't attempt to defend piracy on blogs/message boards, so people get a skewed view of why pirates pirate. There are other minor reasons people pirate, and agree that developers can and should address these problems.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
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Posted: Jan 16th 2009 4:29AM Breakfastmachine said

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I've pirated one game. I actually paid for it first, but the DRM prevented me from playing it. So I downloaded it. Can't say I feel too bad about it...
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Posted: Jan 18th 2009 2:16AM mynk said

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man, i could write a book about this shit.
but i think i can sum it up in a sentence...

i fucking hate pirates.
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