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Reader Comments (42)

Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:23AM Vegeta has a ps3 said

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I completely agree with this thread. That being said, I know I've had my share of pirating of video games in the past.

The way I see it(and yeah maybe it is one of those half-baked justifications) is that I only buy games that I really really want, or to support a develope that I really like. And I do this for all forms of entertainment, music especially.

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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 9:19AM MrHashbrown said

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Music is a given. The music industry has lost a shitload to piracy, but as long as iTunes keeps performing (surprisingly) well, there doesn't seem to be any form of panic going on.

For games, Steam and other channels for digital distribution looks to be the savior of the industry.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:46PM Californian said

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And you, sir, I agree with as well. Were there PS3 games available to pirate, I would pirate a few, but it would simply mean that I *had* more games, not that I bought any less. Piracy is free advertising for some developers, and others it doesn't hurt at all. However, there are just as many developers who it hurts detrimentally (World of Goo), so it is a matter of convincing pirates who are at the point I was once with music (where I never bought anything) to not stop pirating, but rather to use it as a free trial, and then buy a game if they really like it. It would force developers to make better games because only the good games would be bought, and with proper education of the public (like this post), this mutual benefit is a possibility. I realize that even with a proper understanding of the industry, some people will never decide to buy a game if it is available online, but many more people would be willing to do so if they truly understood that they fund the video game industry, and when not supporting the franchises they enjoy, they kill it with their own two hands on the keyboard. No, I will never actually buy Adobe CS4 (and never would have even if not available for pirating), but I do buy every PC game I truly enjoy, or even like somewhat. I cannot see into the collective mind of the public, but unless and until it is possible to stop piracy (it probably never will be), we need to embrace it as a useful advertising and quality-boosting tool. Something good can come even from this.
P.S. Sorry for the lack of adherence to "(Here's to hoping the comment section isn't flooded with more half-baked justifications for piracy.)" :)
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:28AM IceAndrews said

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here here!
Just buy your games!
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:27AM (Unverified) said

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Great Post. Raised some interesting issues.

The hardcore market constantly complains about so-called "casual" oriented gaming, but this is one of the few ways companies these days can be sure the game they are making won't be pirated: make it appeal not to the hardcore market which knows how to pirate games, but to the mums and dads who haven't even heard of bittorrent and think a cartoon tie-in game would be perfect for their kid.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:32AM Vegeta has a ps3 said

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Absolutely agree
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:30AM The Punisher said

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I work for a broadband company and it's ridiculous how many people pirate things. I can't believe how many people have LimeWire on their computer. I always make a comment to customers about having software like that on their PC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUgB0hNf0bs
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:41AM RKN said

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I'm not pirating anymore PC games, haven't done so in a while to support the best gaming platform evar!!! And now I can get software like Photoshop for cheap at my university so no pirating of those either.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:07AM Sly C said

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if i need a game cheap, i can go to my friends for them. they have tons of games for me to choose from. it also helps that one of my friends is the manager at a local gamestop. :D
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:10AM Anticrawl said

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Before getting into console gaming heavily I would pirate a game just be sure the damn thing would run on my system. With the severe lack of standards and structure in the PC gaming realm it's somewhat understandable that gamers would be weary in purchasing titles. Why isn't there a 3-5 tier system developers use that is adjusted every 5 years to help the typical consumer.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:38AM RKN said

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We do need a lot more game demos for the PC like there are for consoles. We've even had cases of multiplatform games where the PC doesn't get a demo but the console versions do! But the PC port is an afterthought usually anyways....
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 5:21AM Alphathon said

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@Anticrawl: I know exactly what you meen. Often the minimum system requirements for a game will vary in how well they run (like with the minimum in one game it may run flawlessly, another it may barely be acceptable). It would be much better if demos were released for everything AND they were based off the final release (often they are derived from betas which just makes things worse)
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:54AM (Unverified) said

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Get yourself an unlimited newsgroup account w/10 connections per account for multidownloads, and downloading games and movies becomes a little faster, better, and generally able to get a ton more things than what's available in torrents especially for older consoles and especially for movies.

And when you've lost your job, your Mom's lost her job, and your dad's job is on shaky grounds, piracy is just an easy choice at the moment. It's not right, there's no good justification, but it's just become too easy and a quick solution for many in my situation.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 2:05AM (Unverified) said

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Yeah, if everyone in your family has lost his or her job, then it is probably best if you spend all your time pirating and playing games instead of looking for a job yourself or something. Even if you're too young to work, you could always make some money by selling those old games you own. Oh wait...
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 2:45AM (Unverified) said

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It would be interesting to debate the true price of rentals like gamefly. If you take the copies they buy of a certain game (bought wholesale or maybe full priced) and then distributed over thousands of people. The profit the game company got from the intial purchase is already lost when the game is distributed to the second customer and so on and so forth. What im getting at is I find allot in common with rental service and torrent with the obvious exception of one is subscription and one isnt, but really who is pocketing the subscription? Im not advocating torrents im just saying theres allot of greys.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:03AM (Unverified) said

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Its not so much that people pirate games, its that:

A. they do it and claim they just "wanted to try it out" even though there is a demo
B. complain when companies try to stop them (thanks jackasses, now I only have 3 weeks to play Spore!)
C.they do it just because they can. I know people who just pirate stuff and never use them. And they will be the most random shit and mostly stuff nobody else has ever heard of or cares about
D. they act like its their god given right.

I'm not being all high-and-mighty here. I have pirated games before, but only for games that DIDNT have demos. And when I did, I treated it LIKE A DEMO. I'd play long enough to get used to the controls/mechanics, then stop and decide whether or not to buy it. If yes, I'd usually make a purchase within in a week. If not, right-click delete, right-click empty recycle bin. Simple as that
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:54AM Levi said

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That's what I used to do for music. I'd download like three songs off of a CD to make sure the radio song wasn't the only good one. My friend downloads whole cd's, but I see him buying music that he's had on his iPod for a long time, just so he's supported them. It's not legal, but there's nothing wrong with it really. It's when you pirate something and enjoy it that of becomes amorale IMO. If it is worth more than a couple minutes of your time, it is worth your money.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:07AM Mugen no Majo said

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wouldnt piracy help the big game companies like Nintendo tho? cause ppl who pirate have to go buy the system to be able to pirate the games and if they couldn't they wouldnt of bought the system anyways. They get money from ppl who werent even gonna buy the system and the games from the start
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:10AM (Unverified) said

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Yes, because Nintendo only makes money on HARDWARE. They don't make jack shit on SOFTWARE.

fallacy, you speakz it
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:16AM (Unverified) said

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I don't see the difference between pirating a game and buying it for 10 dollars on ebay. In both cases the developer gets zero income from it.

If piracy does not hurt the music industry why would it hurt the game industry?
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:35AM Vegeta has a ps3 said

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>If piracy does not hurt the music industry why would it hurt the game industry?

:

I'm sorry but what? Do you honestly think that piracy does not hurt the gaming business at all? The fact is, while yes there are lots of people pirating music, there are also different alternatives for people to gain music at an affordable price.

That isn't the case with Video Games. The fact is, Piracy does hurt alot of these companies(and it doesn't help that many of them are going under due to the bad economy) and while it may not hurt some of the bigger companies immediately, what about those smaller companies? Do you honestly believe that it doesn't hurt them at all?
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:59AM (Unverified) said

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There are a few differences buying used games and pirating:
1) You can't buy a used game before the game gets used. That is, you have to wait until someone else is done with it. Piracy is immediate, sometimes before the game even gets released.

2) Games don't drop to $10 immediately, even on eBay. EBay tends to reflect actual market value, so good games stay higher in price longer than bad games. Piracy is a flat rate of free.

3) When you buy used games, you're helping the economy by paying for shipping, eBay fees, game store employees' time, etc. Also, an individual selling a used game is probably more likely to buy another game with the money you just sent him. Thus, you support the industry indirectly. Piracy doesn't shift any money around so it hurts companies, consumers, and the economy in general.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 2:06AM BritC said

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> I don't see the difference between pirating a game and buying it for 10
> dollars on ebay. In both cases the developer gets zero income from it.
That's true, but there's one difference: when you buy it from eBay, that person bought it originally. There's a variety of reasons eBay can only do limited damage to the game industry: (1) someone bought the game originally, (2) you don't get it right away from eBay so eBay can't cut into first-day sales, (3) people typically own the game for a while before selling it on eBay (so there's a several-month gap where the game is depreciating), (4) not everyone wants to go through the hassle of selling games on eBay, (5) not everyone wants to buy a used game from eBay. Theoretically, piracy could lead to much, much lower sales. This is because only one person needs to buy the game before uploading it to thousands/millions of people on the internet. Theoretically, this could lead to a situation where a million people are playing a game, but only one person bought it. Obviously, things won't get *that* bad, but piracy has a much larger potential to harm game companies than eBay does.

> If piracy does not hurt the music industry why would it hurt the game industry?
Actually, the music industry is getting hurt by piracy. Sales of recorded music peaked in 2000. It's dropped off steadily since then. I think 2008 sales were down something like 40% compared to sales in the year 2000.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:46PM Californian said

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@Brit:
I don't feel bad for pirating music in the least. I still buy a lot of it, but I am not about to willingly take the risk that I just bought a horrible CD when I could pirate it first for evaluation purposes. On top of all that, the music industry is incredibly bloated from greed and crappy music (don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of awesome music out there, just not at the high proportion it was in the 70's; no I was not alive then, but I still love the music). Listen to Wierd Al's "Don't Download this Song" and you can see that even some in the industry realize the ridiculous nature of the industry. That said, go buy some music you pirated and liked! :)
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 7:39PM BritC said

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@Californian: "I don't feel bad for pirating music in the least..."
I wasn't really intending to get into a debate about the ethics or legitimacy of pirating music. I was merely pointing out the misconception that the music industry wasn't being hurt by piracy (and the related argument that 'therefore the games industry won't either').
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:22AM (Unverified) said

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Dear game & music industry...I swear, once I stop living off my parent's money and get my own job, I will buy every single game and every single music album I want, I promise it!

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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:43AM (Unverified) said

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The double-edged sword that is a bad economy :/

On one hand the bad economic times makes you save your money and not spend it, yet in order for the economy to go up people need to spend. In order for people to spend confidence must rise, but for confidence to rise obtainable jobs must be made. But the list goes on and on :/

If someone says "Well I don't want to spend this money on a game, what happens if I lose my job?" "Well I just won't buy it and I wont pirate because that hurts the developers"

Now both parties are screwed because the consumer does not get to enjoy the game and the developer just lost a sale.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 2:34AM (Unverified) said

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I'm not really sure that piracy is really that big of an issue in gaming outside of PC's.
The 360 has been hacked but it's generally too involved of a process for the common person to enter into.
The PS3's not hacked at all so there's no opportunity there.
The Wii's hacked but the vast majority of its owners aren't interested in piracy.
The PC is another issue as it's very easy to pirate games on and just about everyone has one.

As a PS3 and linux desktop user I don't even have the opportunity to pirate but I have a recommendation to curb it overall.

Where you can, in the console realm, raise the barrier to piracy to a point which will curb most people. In the PC world, lower the price and add online incentives so that people would much rather buy the software than download it. Look at Valves success with it's L4D sale. They boosted sales over 1000% by cutting the cost on their game.

I'm not promoting piracy, I'm just saying it's an inevitability in the world we live in so companies might as well learn to work with it.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 2:38AM (Unverified) said

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Really I understand why buying the games are needed I hope to be a game designer some day, but the companies have to make the consumers believe they deserve it. Some companies just get way too greedy. I love it when people try to be innovative with their solutions. Radio head offered their album for nothing, and I did donate to them. I play kingdom of loathing which is free, and their donation system works well, it provides incentives to keep them running. But if a company doesn't offer a demo, doesn't let you try out the product before buying it, how do you know you will like it? If they also throw on something like securom it only makes it worse for the consumer, it is a deterrent to both pirates and sales. And pirates defeat it in the end anyway.

I am not saying piracy is right, it isn't, but what the bigger companies are doing isn't either. It is what will kill the industry because it gives pirates a reason to pirate beyond the fact that it is free, that is tempting enough. I can see whhy people do pirate,
1. it costs little to nothing, and this reason is more important the less money someone has.
2. The sense that they are battling an evil corporation (I know small developers are hit too, but explain why so many more people pirated spore without this)
3. It has become a social thing for some people. It is just what they do to fell cool around people.

There is evil on both the consumers side (pirates), and the companies side (underpaid developers, overpaid ceos, DRM like securom which makes the consumer feel like they aren't trusted [which they aren't], and I also personally hate it when they bring out the copy right lawyers against stupid things, like blacksmiths making final fantasy swords when they have no intent of making a full size one anyway.)
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 4:23AM IannCannon said

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Kind of off topic but I just googled kingdom of loathing after reading your comment and now I'm hooked. Thanks.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 3:47AM MasterGouken said

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We can talk, talk, talk...

Piracy will never, never stop, i said never...

Singers will stay rich...(If they songs are good)

"Good" game company's will make millions every year selling games...

For me is the same as debating about being a vegetarian or vegan, doesn't matter what happen, people will never stop eating meat.

Simple as that !
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 4:47AM (Unverified) said

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As a gamer in a country with no market let me explain you something.
Here in uruguay (south america) there is no oficial xbox retails, neither sony or wii have one.
Retail stores prices are imposible for the local market.
With a minimun salary of 150 bucks these are the local prices:
PS3 40gb, Xbox 360 premiun = $ 600
PS3 80GB, XBOX 360 elite = $ 900
WII, PS3, XBOX 360 games = $ 150
a single wiimote cost = $100
PSP, DS cost arroun = $ 450
And even retail stores sells hacked ps2.

As you can see these prices are so execive and the games deliver too late.
Piracy here is a reality and i always thought if software and hardware cost something like in US or EU these problem might be solved. Meanwhile the ones with PS3 (as i am) that's not hackeable have to wait to buy it from ebay used or wait for somebody coming from US.

I dont want to speak in favour of piracy, but to show you the reality in some other countries.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 4:48AM (Unverified) said

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Now i'm usually pretty anti-priacy. And i'm the first to jump on people with stupid justifications for piracy. But....

If our income goes down the drain then we aren't going to be buying any games anyway. Lets asume you have a family who's income suddenly drops in half... they now have no money to buy games, dvds, music, etc..
So their choice is to live a misreable life with no fun and lots of worry. Or to try to cheer themselves up with some free entertainment. In that situation I wouldn't begrudge them a few downloads.

Most of us have probably pirated the odd thing in the past... many of us when we were at school or uni and had little cash. But we then got jobs and became paying customers. (some of us anyway). This is similar to that. As long as they return to being paying customers once their situation improves...

However the other case is people who HAVE the money, but don't spend it because of fear of the economy. Potential paying customers who cease to pay. THIS could cause problems for everyone.

So, if you have the spare cash then buy the game.. the devs deserve it. If you have no spare cash and need the odd bit of fun... maybe you deserve it. But don't forget who gave it to you when your situation improves.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 8:04AM (Unverified) said

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I'm not a fan of Valve (flame me if you will), but I think Gabe Newell showed that games are pretty overpriced, especially in these economic times. Maybe if games were priced at $30 or $40 at launch and DLC was free (or included with the original game), there'd be less incentive to pirate games.

I personally don't pirate games, but I also spend far less money on games as well. I haven't bought any DLC yet either.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 8:36AM (Unverified) said

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Maybe the developers need to find other ways to make money, Like in game advertising. Oh wait a minute, they already do that!
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 9:45AM Brucie B said

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Arrr Matey, Avast! Those scallywags are catching on!
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 10:15AM (Unverified) said

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I'm not saying piracy is ethical, but the market is a force of nature. The majority will always do what is best for their own wallets. And if that choice is unethical, then the majority will be unethical.

Arguably the whole economy of the First World is profiting from the exploitation of the labor of the Second and Third Worlds. Nearly every purchase you make is perpetuating an unfair trade with the people making your products. But no amount of proclaiming this will cause any real change. Altruism will never prevail over consumerism.

If your product is available for free somewhere else, then the only remaining value in selling it is the convenience of a smooth delivery. Successful devs will price their games accordingly, and act against piracy services that become too convenient. This seems like the only possible future. I don't think there is a future where the majority of gamers stop pirating simply because it's wrong.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 11:32AM (Unverified) said

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The reasons I pirate most games are:

1) I get them right away. No trip to retail, no waiting to download from publisher. The BitTorrent technology achieves speeds that are impossible with the traditional server-client model, by downloading slowly, but from hundreds of peers

2) I don't know if the game's actually any good. Reviews and gaming sites cannot be trusted. Their idea of a 'good' game seems to be always skewed, and then there's the whole advertising thing like with GameSpot or whatever

So I want to download the game first, play it, THEN decide if it was really worth the price tag. You don't buy music either without listening to it first. Demos are NEVER an accurate representation of the finished product, and they're never very well incorporated, e.g. your progress doesn't transfer to the full game

3) Games are way overpriced. 50 euros is ridiculous. Valve has proven it with reasonable prices AND made more money in the process. The most ridiculous pricing yet is with 'expansion packs'. I bought Civilization IV already, you don't seriously expect me to pay TRIPLE for the expansions, with features that SHOULD have been in the game in the first place!

4) Most games just simply suck. They're full of bugs and glitches and lacking content, not to mention most games are inherently badly executed. Take Spore for example. It was the exact opposite of what we were promised. Had I bought it instead of pirating, I would have wasted my money on a product I didn't even want

Bottom line is that you can read reviews about the 'game' side of the game all you want, but they won't correspond to the 'technical' side of the game. Everyone's systems are different, including the reviewers' and yours

5) Copy protection schemes. Cracked versions don't have 'em, and I ain't negotiating for the control of my computer. I bought it, it's mine. What I do with it is none of your business. I also bought your game, so whether I copy it or not is none of your business either

The world changes. We have better technology, we demand better service. Developers and publishers that don't adapt, but try to cling to the traditions, will die. It's a basic rule of life, people. If you don't get with the times, someone will take your place. In this case, pirates. So it's not our fault that they're losing sales, it's their own for not adapting better
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:02PM juggalotusmx said

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oh no the preacher's back....

yours is not a legal advice of course and clearly not, this article is about the rich companies and not about the jobless consumers again and agian. as far as i remember there's always more bad games than good ones, so your quantity over quality is a cliche, there's monopolies and questionable business practices from this beloved companies EA as an example and other like microsoft that sell half baked hardware to the very same jobless consumers you call thieves. they pass us their bills but lets ignore that fact and defend them.

A simple solution to all this piracy problem, is that all the game makers out there needs to understand the economy is different now and start to adjust the prices asap, just "pirate" Valves business model

As consumers we can rent them or buy them and exchange them and ultimately re-sell them and stay clean, this will hurt them as bad as piracy goes but nobody will say a thing, a new factor to your cycle.

in an economy like this the best we can do is SAVE
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 12:38PM blash said

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It's very simple: I give my money to developers who I think deserve it. I bought the Lost and Damned, and I just bought the Weekend Indie game deal over on Steam. I pirated Mirror's Edge, and I pirate all my movies and music, except for Israeli music which I pay triple the cost for a CD and wait a month for it to ship overseas in a boat and clear customs.
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Posted: Feb 21st 2009 1:58PM Deck said

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Great post! I agree! I wont weigh in much, as I think everyone has already covered most everything, but this is a very good post.

I admit that I am not fully innocent of piracy in the past. But I don't think I have pirated anything within the last 3 years. Why? Because I realized the implications for all the companies and the people behind the games who made them happen. I realized it was like "robbing someones livelihood" and that is just plain wrong. So I buy from now on. Perhaps I do not have as many games as when I got them by other means, but I enjoy the ones I have and at least feel like I am supporting people.
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2009 12:26AM jupigare said

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I think Steam is an excellent deterrent of piracy for PC gamers. I like that it ties games to user accounts rather than specific computers, so users can install the games they own onto any computer they wish. The reason, I found, that many people initially pirated Spore is to avoid dealing with its DRM, because they don't like being locked down to a limited number of computers.

Also, offering game demos helps gamers try the game out and decide whether or not they would want to buy it. I played Audiosurf during its beta, and I admit I used a crack so I could continue playing the game until its official release, but I immediately bought the game to help support it. I think that releasing a demo of a video game before its launch is a much better way of generating interest in the game than any other form of advertisement.
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