DICE 2009: Todd Howard on Bethesda's 3 rules of game development

Except that OF COURSE install base matters when you are talking about a product with one specific purpose in mind, and a second product which can not be used except in tandem with the first product.

All those people who bought a Wii might want to move on from there. And I'm sure they don't want the industry treating them like morons when they are first starting to embrace gaming as a hobby. Except the industry does just that, which is just sad for everyone involved.

When you see the types of games they buy, it's hard NOT to think of them as morons.

And please stop saying they want to move on to bigger and better games, because I'm willing to bet that only a very very small % of wii owners want to do that. I doubt soccer mom's are going to start flocking to Fallout 3 anytime....well ever. Casuals for the most part will never move on to bigger and better games, because they're only comfortable with the most simplistic of games.

hey tmac, you must of missed this article

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/02/19/nielsen-wii-audience-is-youngest-ps3-audience-is-oldest/

so tell me again, soccer moms are buying which console?

It's so bizarre to me that people can be elitist about bloody VIDEO GAMES.

More empty generalisations from the kid. Don't you play World of Warcraft? Who are you to lecture others on 'casuals' and simple games? Take your hypocrisy back to the schoolyard.

D+

also, if install base doesnt matter to them, I expect FallOut 3 to be ported to Gizmondo and N-Gage within the coming year. Whats that, its not financially viable? Stop looking at the install base, man! That shit don't matter anymore

No empty generalizations here, it's all in the numbers. We know just about all the non gamers play wii and wii only because they struggle with the more complex games and are too lazy to learn how to play them.

WoW is a different thing, because it's a game that can be as casual or hardcore as you want it to be. The top raiding guilds are no casuals, as they know how to break everything down in numbers (like knowing how to calculate dps compared with armor penetration, haste rating, attack power, etc). No casual is going to be seeing the top stuff unless they're getting carried by people who know what they're doing, aka the "hardcore".

Goal post moving is too cool, right, kid? You cannot attack any sort of casualisation of the console market, then support Warcraft. They are two strands from of the same thread. You look silly, kid.

Whoa, whoa, the e-mail flood begins. I'm trying to play Condemned 2 here! Sufficiently creeped out so far btw...

I don't think his comment was made to be taken so literally. If anything, it was a comment of attatch rate and/or demographic. Of course the percentage of people who would buy Fallout 3 on the Wii is smaller than that of the other platforms. Just because a lot of people own tables doesn't mean they are going to release a tabletop Fallout game---

Oh god... I really would buy a tabletop Fallout board game in a heartbeat... What have I done to my own comment?!

The numbers actually support the argument that some Wii gamers are movin' on upstream. If we disregard all of the million-selling launch titles for the console except Wii Sports (basically throw out Twilight Princess and Red Steel), you can see that more and more core or bridge games are getting on the list as time progresses, and fewer purely casual titles. You have aberrations in there like Wii Music, but mostly the trend is upward

Certainly the bulk of Wii owners aren't going to go for WRPGs, but WRPGs are a small market anyway, as they are mostly too complex by nature for most users.

tmac,

It is rather naive to consider them morons when for many people the Wii is their first console. Not only that, many don't find it convenient to research the games they want to buy and instead just buy based on what they interpret of the title/box (which for the most port ends up being tv shows or movie tie-ins/shovelware)

And as such, it is also dumb to expect them to go from the most famous Wii titles to games such as Fallout any time soon, hell, I wasn't even interested in that game.

aj

There are elitist everywhere, from movies and music to religion and political parties, hell even sport teams. So video game elitist are far from abnormal.


Bowser

"More empty generalisations from the kid. Don't you play World of Warcraft? Who are you to lecture others on 'casuals' and simple games? Take your hypocrisy back to the schoolyard."

Ok, seriously, you again and your bs?

Who are you to talk about hypocrisy when you are the one that said that the PlayStation consoles have been built around "casual" games?

Oh and btw, since I got tired of answering you on that other thread, no, those titles were still "hardcore", the fact that you think that Philosoma, Warhawk, and Twisted Metal were casual and family friendly games makes me believe even more so on that your statements are full of crap.

@Noshino Baby

"Oh and btw, since I got tired of answering you on that other thread, no, those titles were still "hardcore", the fact that you think that Philosoma, Warhawk, and Twisted Metal were casual and family friendly games makes me believe even more so on that your statements are full of crap."

Let me repeat something for emphasis:

"Well first you need a grounded definition of what is and is not a 'hardcore' game. As such a term is rather subjective, and groundless, it is impossible to debate the merits of what the PS1 stood for in that regard."

I try not to use the word casual, but if I were, family friendly wouldn't be the first synonym that would come to mind. Super Mario Bros 2 a is rather a family friendly title, but I wouldn't dump that in any 'casual' pile. Such attitudes belong to Silly Billy. You're not a Silly Billy.

Hence why I mentioned both "casual" and family friendly, but Ok Bowser, then let me be more specific so you actually understand.

At the time, none of those games were ever considered casual games/family friendly.

Philosoma was far from family friendly, unless you consider a game a scifi shooter family friendly. Not only that, the gameplay itself was far from accessible. Yes, at its core it was just like any other shooter, but when you add the changing camera angles and speed, well, it was far from friendly.

Warhawk was far from family friendly or casual as well, not only was the story not family friendly, but also the controls, unlike other games, Warhawk was one of the first to add weight to the aircraft, creating momentum and adding an extra layer of depth to the gameplay. Not only that, but it was considered (once again, at the time) to have more crowded battles and smart AI.

And well, Twisted Metal, really family friendly? REALLY?..

Once again Mr. Bowser, stop spreading bullshit, Thank you.

???: I realize that by calling you out here, I am the pot and you the kettle, but anyways...
That rant of yours was downright scary. Not just preachy, self-righteous, and unnecessarily judgmental, but scary. Waaaay too much flame.
That you even referred to yourself as "chastizing" another commenter should be indicative of that.

And just to say so, your criticisms are based on the assumption that all people should care more about other humans whom they have never met and who have no effect on their lives than they should care about objects and possessions which they like.
I reject that - not just because I tend to play the misanthrope, and not just because (in many ways) it doesn't make sense to force compassion for people you have no connection to - but because it is stupid to rip on people for valuing objects like video games on a video game blog... where we spend countless hours reading and talking about video games and, ironically, cruelly flaming other people that we don't know because of a conspicuous lack of compassion (that's you).

In conclusion, me pot, you kettle, both black, but I think I was nicer about it.
So there.

I just like your avatar.... Metal Man's the man.

Kid shoots mother.

Commenter: nobody better verbally slur my choice of consumable goods.

Lol, good point.

Obviously this child is in need of some mental health help. Not to mention the lax gun laws etc, but this is a video games blog. So my slant on this news article is in regards to the views of video games by society. And how my consumer goods (not to mention yours, and the jobs of many people) may be affected for a reason they had nothing to do with.

Nobody has blamed your precious video games.

A human being has been violently slain and you're worrying about the effect it will have on our unimportant hobby? I'm not asking for empathy or anything, but come on. There's something perverse about such selfishness.

Anti-Gun People: 1
Second Amendment: 0

This is precisely where it is gonna go.Not videogames, guns.

Just to point out, in other countries(especially in UK where they can put you in prison for having knives or other sharp objects without a pretty good reason) this kid would be more likely to murder his step-mother by staring at her for a prolonged amount of time rather than be able to obtain a pistol, let alone a motherfucking shotgun.

Yes, that's why the murder, gun violence, knife violence and general crime rates dropped in the UK after those wonderful laws were put in place and the UK has the safest envrionment in any Western nation.

Wait, they actually increased dramatically and the UK is the most dangerous nation to live in (short of getting killed)? Well I'll be, banning something doesn't work. What a novel concept.

when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns

@ LaughingTarget

That's a magnificent "Correlation does not imply causation fallacy" you got here.

Yes Britain has an awful high crime rate and I know you Yankees are incredibly defensive about your second amendment, but surely you can't be implying that if we unbanned everything and allowed every Chav to walk around with guns and knives, the crimerate would drop down again, can you?

@SirBuzz: The point isn't to arm the Chavs, they will be armed regardless. The point is to arm the public so they have some type of defense against Chavs.

Goldie Lookin' Chain said it best: guns don't kill people, rappers do.

I can appreciate that someone has died. I feel for their family.

Now here's the ugly truth.

I don't give a f*ck about her, I don't know her, I won't miss her. No disrespect to the loss that her family now have to endure but I won't be losing any sleep over this.

I do care about my games though. Vote me down if you will but im not going to be all P.C. and appear to be caring about human lives. I don't. Humans are selfish creatures who often put self-interests first. The world's selfish and the sooner you realise this the better.

Sadly, nothing can be done for her now.
The industry can prepare itself for an unfair backlash.

Britain has a high crime rate?

That's only because the cops here are bored enough to haul you in for littering or smoking on a train station.

Frankly I feel just that bit safer in a nation where only gangsters carry guns to use on other gangsters than one where any crazy person can walk into a shop and get one.

@Spartan: Your games are IRRELEVANT. They are fucking OBJECTS.

The fact that you haven't even bothered to read up on the story (which was clearly a super-bizarre case of jealousy/inverse Oepidus, and nothing) says a lot there about your ignorance. The fact that, in all likelihood, the moment you heard that some kid shot somebody else, your immediate response was: "Somebody's gonna blame it on video games" to the point you made an OT response here says a lot about your detachment from reality. Rather than apologizing or just letting it go off as a troll/flamebait, you kept selfishly and apathetically digging yourself deeper into the idiotic hole you're in. All for some stupid objects.

I wish you were an isolated case. But I know better than that. You are an example of why I am disgusted with the gaming community at large.


I'm not done.

@Pro Gun hacks: I wish I could sympathize with you. Your cause seems noble, defending the Second Amendment. The problem, however, is that you too are just as selfish, arrogant, and ignorant as the person I just chastised above. If you truly believed you were defending the right to bear arms, you would also be helping out figuring out ways to prevent its ABUSE, I.E. guns falling into hands of criminals. And this wouldn't be about gun control, but rather what causes them to arm in the first place. Something that, while it may be impossible to completely eradicate, at least justifies your cause. But no, you'd rather wash your hands clean of that. Truth is, all you care about is making sure nobody takes your shiny pieces of overcompensation away, your POSSESSIONS as they were. You're no different than Spartan here.

And, before I forget: If I recall correctly, the U.S. Constitution has very few, if any, protections against PROPERTY and POSSESSIONS.

@ ???

I am not ignorant. One is fully aware that games are objects.

I did read the entire article.

I just don't care about that kid and his complexes, if I'm being honest with myself.

It is a shame, but nothing can be done about it.

And I could not disagree with you more about me being detached from reality. I am very confident that I have seen human behaviour at it's rawest and realest; Acts of hatred, love, anger, revenge and dedication far beyond what the vast majority of people who will ever grace this site could ever hope to experience. I am SO in touch with reality it hurts daily.

Again, I am not ignorant, I can see that my words seemed cold and selfish in light of what happened.

But I will not apologise for them.

People die everyday and other people ignore this in consideration of their "objects". Why should I feel bad for my concern of my objects, regardless of what these object may be. If I were concerned about my stocks or gold bars or properties would that be any better?

I have been on a train that a girl commited suicide under, and some the people getting off the train were only concerned with how late they would be for work. Their motivation? Money. An object. For themselves. So don't lecture me on why objects shouldn't take priority over peoples complexes and lives.

It's a sad fact that they do. Live with it.

My objects may be stupid to you, but that's your opinion. And your opinion is not one I that matters to me.

So, yes, tell yourself you care about what's going on. Tell yourslef it's sad and that someone should do something. When you realise that it's life and that's just how it goes i'll welcome you to reality.

Here's something I learned about life. When people REALLY care about something. Instead of saying "someone should do something about that" they actually go and do something about it. So the next time you're about fool yourself that you care, check and see if your doing/going to do something about it then stop lying to yourself.

You'll be happier.

P.S.

So that we're all clear, your second amendment historically means that you have the right to revolt/protest against the government. Not own guns.

"I am SO in touch with reality it hurts daily."

Evidence proves otherwise.

You tried to be an attention whore by derailing a thread about Bethesda's game development towards the death of a another. Nobody made any mention of gaming, but you felt the pre-emptive strike was needed, why? It was a childish act from someone who clearly doesn't have the proper cognitive inclination towards acts of tremendous trauma. It's an indication that someone is living in a bubble, a culturally inferior bubble. It'd be great shame if you were, say, over the age of 12 or 13. I mean, to feel every incident with every inch and fibre of your body is mentally exhausting and unsustainable. But to pathologically search out disaster after disaster hoping to manufacture a link between that and a criticism of your empty hobby, well, that's just plain haunting. Such mental detachment is the sign of true disturbance. A poor, sorry fellow you are, Mister Spartan.

oh, i could really go for elder scrolls five. i recently finished the third one (i started with oblivion), and now that im almost done with fallout 3, im going some good western rpg to play.

handhelds are not consoles

You're wrong. Of course a "handheld console" is a console. If you go to Google news and type Games Console you'll see news about the Xbox, PS3, DS and Wii. Hell, I even see a headline about some iPod game.

i'm saying they are similar but not the same. when talking about install base, handhelds are up there but a household could have one console and everyone in it could have at least one handheld.

"handhelds are not consoles"

Right there, in uncapitalised, black and white. Your pathetic attempts at backtracking are fruitless. You cannot alter that statement, nor can you alter your meaning. A handheld console is a console. This is the end of this discussion.

no back tracking, trying to clarify my point and recognise yours. they are different things in the same family. it be like trying to lump tiger electronics games, older cell phones and gameboys in one.

Stop using "protip" unless you are a professional. While we're at it, stop using "FAIL" as an all-caps one-word sentance until you make the rules.

I can't disagree more about Fallout 3. That simply is the best game I have ever played. I am currently playing Oblivion, and really am liking it as well. Fallout is a perfect game for a rainy day where you don't want to go outside, and have 15 hours to spend wandering around aimlessly.

I agree with everything you just said, except the first paragraph. Of course, my opinion on that paragraph is invalidated because I've barely played Fallout 3.
Bethesda is a great company, but I think it's extremely idiotic of them to go exclusive on their (almost essential) DLC.

Fallout is actually the best game you've ever played? Sure, it's great and all but it feels really limited and as though the plot is just a series of events rather than a story.

It is amazing how people will complain about DLC or a premature ending after enjoying over 100 hours of engaging game play. Seriously!? After providing that much time in a well designed game I don't think they owe anyone squat.

What exactly does Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt have to do with anything?

It's the 2nd thing, them saying "we can't bring expansions to the PS3 because it's impossible" and then doing so.

Giving a platform-convenient lie instead of giving the real reasons when you do something is to jump into FUD.

For example, just saying "there aren't enough PS3 customers out there to make money selling expansions for it" is a better way to explain what's going on than saying you can't make expansions and then doing so later.