SFII HD designer calls out SFIV for user unfriendliness

SF4 is not hard. Yep the timing is very critical to execute combos. Getting an arcade stick really helps...a lot.

for me, this one of those, "well, gee, i never thought about it that way" situations. i have to give Sirlin the point here. i LOVE both HDRemix and SFIV, but like an earlier poster said there were some very smart choices and balancing decisions Sirlin and his team made in HD Remix that i was disappointed they omitted in IV. for example, E. Honda's LP Headbutt's ability to go through fireballs. i thought that was an incredible choice for Honda and it game him a tool to lessen one of his biggest weaknesses. in IV, Honda is at a huge disadvantage versus a shoto with a good zoning game.

anyway, i love both games, but Sirlin has a very VERY good point.

Sirlin knows his shit. Goes to show that many game reviewers simply don't know theirs. This game is fun but for those of you who just play it casually with friends it has less depth than any other SF.

I agree that KoF has the cheapest end bosses ever. MK's bosses were always a bitch as well but I wasn't into fighters back then so maybe I just sucked. For those of you having trouble with Seth you have to remember you can't fight a boss like you would a human opponent. Find a weakness and exploit it because the computer doesn't learn. The best method I found was to stay around mid range and be ready to block his moves and sweep afterwards. If he gets too close sometimes you're fucked. If you block he command throws, if you press anything he instantly uppercuts. Try to stay out of this situation.

I just wish the reviews made it clear that most of the moves can't really be pulled off with a 360 controller. A large part of the game is inaccessible with the default hardware.

I'm having fun playing online, even though I'm not that good, but I have to buy a stick (all sold out everywhere) to be able to properly compete.

could Zangief and Seth get any cheaper?

Fighting games are like Sports. Noob will button mash and random people toss a football in the yard or shot air balls out on their drive ways. "Pros" will Shoryuken. ex focus, QCF Punch, to QCF x2 Punch ect. while QBs get in their pockets looking for that WR for a first down or w/e and do double alley oops.

I agree with David Sirlin. I grew up with SFII, but I was never good at it, never did figure out how to do Ryu & Ken's moves. You're supposed to wiggle the stick back and forth? I mean chun-li and guile's were easy, hold back on the stick then forward and hit the punch button. I never learned how to read the fight commands either. It always looked confusing to me. I was a casual SFII player at best, getting by, by just doing the same kick move over and over again. Here we are SFIV and I set it on Easiest and I still get my butt kicked. Gimmie a break. I suck at SF games. Give crappy players like me a chance.

While I do think some of the move changes they made for HD Remix should have carried over to SFIV (Chun-li's bouncing Spinning Bird Kick, Honda's headbutt breaking fireballs), I personally think the game is just right as it is. It has fun, deep, and difficult to master gameplay, and I think that most, if not all new systems, work. Now what I wonder about the game is why they didn't come up with any cool new characters, aside from Abel.

You get out what you put in. Mash buttons, you'll find it supremely unsatisfying and frustrating. Spend some time to learn the game, you'll appreciate it and love it. When a new game comes out, everybody is a newb.

And let me ask you: is anybody really surprised that Seth (or any other character) is a bottle of Cheez Whiz with a side of string cheese? The computer has always, ALWAYS cheated in Street Fighter. That's why you ugly through to unlock all the characters and then play versus mode against anybody willing to put the controller in their hands.

Anyone mention the big problem Sirlin has that really makes things noob-unfriendly: In ranked matches, you can choose your opponents. For shame, Capcom, for shame!

Excellent point. Seriously being in the lobby watching others fight in a match is great, why the fuck did capcom omit this from sf4 is beyond comprehension.

Playing the game is not so difficult. It's following the command prompts in the Challenge Trial Mode that's hard.

The part that reviewers were wrong about was about how similar Street Fighter II and Street Fighter IV are. Sure, they're pretty similar, but there are a bunch of differences that allow each game to be a totally distinct experience.

maybe if you suck at fighting games, this shit is hard. I would say this game is much more accessable than a lot of fighting games. Furthermore, I don't consider Street Fighter II to be accessable. I consider it shallow. That game has been out for 20+ years, and fighting games have evolved.

Using a 2x qtr circle move to explain why something is too difficult isn't the best example either. I'm pretty sure that command has been a 2D fighter staple for a LONG time.

The game is certainly not casual friendly, and I don't see how that could ever be considered a good thing. It's not even just for casual players there's a problem, anyone who isn't seriously into fighting games, or perhaps even just hasn't played SF before is going to have a lot of problems.

The game kicks your ass, does as little as possible to explain how to play and offers little incentive to continue trying. I can see a lot of new comers giving up with the game very quickly.

I thought it was pretty n00b friendly. But then again I'm a hardcore fan so my opinion doesn't really count. At least they eliminated a lot of the n00bish moves all the other games have.

Anyway yeah...

SFIV >>>>>>> SFIIHDR

Sirlin is one of my favourite developer personalities because he really, really knows not only how to make a good game, but what makes a game good to begin with; some of his design articles are brilliant and very good reads if you are interested in becoming a game designer or developer. Although I'm not much of a fighting game fan, I trust his knowledge of the mechanics enough to believe that his opinion on the matter is very sound. Of course, as a tournament-level player, his comments are probably going to sound rather trifling for the majority of people enjoying the game, but Capcom needs to decide whether or not they want to attract the hardcore or the casual crowd - you can do both, as Super Smash Bros. proves, but it needs to be handled elegantly.

I think billing Street Fighter IV as a "newb-friendly" game was a mistake by Capcom. Fighting games, almost by definition, are complex and challenging, requiring hours to come to grips with in any meaningful way. Simplified controls help, but when you have depth that comes out of remembering move lists, combos, special attacks, etc., not to mention require a lot of manual dexterity from the user, you can rule grandma or even a casual Xbox fan out of the equation. Street Fighter is not meant to be newbie-friendly, and attempts to market it as such are just that: attempts at reaching a wider audience.

the game is good for casual people playing other casual people, at a party or hanging out with friends.

the ex focus cancels they want you to pull off in the middle of combos in some of the hard trials are retarded difficult.

SF4 is good. Really nice and hard.

But ya know what im really waiting for?

Marvel vs Capcom 3 &
Street fighter Alpha 4.

Whose with me on that one?

That's the damn definition of video games. You get better with time. It sounds like he wants SFIV to be a button masher. Go back to Soul Calibur.

Casuals almost always play other casuals. When the hell does he expect a casual to run into a die-hard ex-cancelling, jump-in comboing player?

I have actually read reports of him dissin' SF4 being too hard for novice players on some other website. Part of the reason Sirlin is dissing SF4 is because this game is not his version of SF4. Before Ono's Street Fighter 4 was made, he pitched his idea of an SF4 game to Capcom called Street Fighter 4:Flashbacks.

The game was goin to about Ryu and the memories he had durin the events in SF2. The game is actually an adventure game like Ninja Gaiden where Ryu relives the past as he goes to dojos beating up familar street fighter characters. Besides the single player adventure mode, it was goin to have the classic one and one match where it gets complicated and stupid, imo. The main gimmick of Flashback would being able to rewind a match for 4 seconds. For instance, if a player is kickin your ass badly, you can reverse time for 4 secs to prevent losing all your strenght. One can put a timestamp to prevent ppl from rewinding by taunting and it is said that the game would have speed down and upz during a match.The way to moves were said to be like CVS2 for the PS2/Xbox/GC where you can press forward and punch to do a fireball.

The game was goin to be made by BackBone, Udon, and Massive Black . Honestly, the game sounds horrible and I think Sirlin is letting out steam on the SFIV Capcom made just because his didn't get greenlighted.

I haven't checked if Joystiq has news about the game, but below are the articles I have read about the unmade SF4:

Taken from escapistmagazine.com, here is a passage that quotes Sirlin about the SF4 we have gotten

"The typically outspoken Sirlin has never been shy about saying that SF4 as we know it isn't how he'd want it if we had his way. "I have a very different idea about how to usher in a new era of Street Fighter, but this isn't it," he told 1UP in an interview. I don't know, the general idea for Flashback, even if the specifics vary pretty greatly, seems to be very much in line with what SF4 represents. It seems like Flashback would have simplified Street Fighter even more than SF4 does - SF4, despite its familiar look and feeling, is still very much a complicated game. "

http://www.unseen64.net/2009/02/09/street-fighter-iv-flashback-x360ps3-concept/

http://www.n4g.com/xbox360/News-280187.aspx

storybook of SF4 flashback:
http://www.lion-gv.com/v09/Portfolio/game-design/street_fighter_iv/sf4-story-book.pdf

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/89600-The-Street-Fighter-4-Youll-Never-Play

Well I think what a lot of reviewers meant as far as "easy" for noobs is that it's a lot easier to pull off special moves in SFIV for the most part. If you're a noob and you at least try to make some sort of an effort to learn or pull off a special move you're more than likely going to succeed whereas SSF2THDR if you're a noob you're pretty much screwed (even with the tweaked controller/joystick motions for certain character's supers and special moves)

Personally there are a lot of things I really hate about SSF2THDR. The game is buggy and although they claim that they've rebalanced the characters in the game there is an insane level of cheapness when certain characters and special moves are spammed. What I also don't like is the fact that rounds are over REALLY quick. There's something wrong when you can be wiped out by 4 or 5 consecutively and even cheaply placed attacks in SSF2THDR. I've been playing SF for years and I pride myself on being a fairly competent player/competitor. I like that SFIV feels more balanced in that special moves and supers for specific characters aren't so powerful that a round can be ended in 15 seconds. SF Remix is fun to a point and the trip down memory lane in HD is definitely welcome but it brings back a lot of the frustrations that I had with the game from 15 years ago prior to it being remade today. In fact I was so frustrated by the bugginess and lack of polish to the game that I came close to deleting it from my system on several ocassions cause it stopped being fun. SFIV? That game is fun.....noob or vet.....it's taken away the ability to be cheap and forces you to improve yourself in the game if you want to stay competitive. The new Capcom team responsible for SFIV have done an incredible job breathing new life into an old favorite. As a long time SF fan I'll be playing until the next installment arrives. See you guys in the ranked matches online!!!

I agree that HD Remix is wayyy more accessible than SFIV,..it also allows for more types of players,..there's room for the chip players who wear opponents down, and also lengthy combos for those who can master them, and theres also the ability to rush and spam one or two moves (aka cheese). I have no problem with either of these styles.

SFIV on the other hand seems only suited to people who have the time and ability to learn powerful combos,..the slower pace makes it less rush and spam friendly, and the huge disparity of energy taken between chip single attacks and those long combos make it a less viable strategy for people to like to hit once or twice and move back.

Maybe I just have to adjust to the new game, I'm still winning my fair share of matches, but i'm nowhere near as untouchable as i am in SFII(&HD). I do find that it's impossible to play the hit and stay back game that i'm used to, or even the super cheese rush. I almost exclusivly use Chun-Li BTW,..maybe thats the problem LOL.

I've been playing SF IV for about a week now. (Since it came out). Before SF4 I had only played the street Fighter series a few times before, and by no means was I an expert or even well versed in the game (I always stuck with MvC1/2 and Mortal Kombat).


In this week though I have learned a lot. I can get off any of my moves now (Akuma) pretty much when I want them too, and am starting to learn the basics of canceling moves, Focus attacks and working on my strategy.


Don't get me wrong, I still get my ass beat a lot. I am usually hovering around 500BP right now, but as of recently I've seem to go up against a lot of players with 1000-1200BP, a few whom which I have managed to beat.


I do think that there is a lot of opportunity to learn in SF4, and I'm loving it so far. I do agree that Seth is annoyingly overpowered in the arcade most, but since I've unlocked all of the characters (save for Seth himself) I'm not even bothering with that anymore. And anyways I found it easy to just spam heavy attacks on him. Like HK HK Crouch+HK Focus Crouch+HK. On the easiest settings characters barely block you so chances are he won't really get out of that. On easy they also do not dodge ultras very well at all.


Overall I'm impressed with the game though and it is easily becoming my favorite fighting game of all time. I think as I learn more and more (The trials are really great for learning combos) I'll enjoy the game more and more as well.

Street Fighter is only as hard as you want it to be.

If you play more simplified, it's a pick-up-and-play game.

If you want to dig deep beneath the surface and pull out the crazy stuff - be prepared to do some practice.

Is this *really* surprising to anyone? Is Sirlin being serious? This isn't 10 string Tekken combos; it's Street Fighter. Have I figured out the whole EX Cancel system or what moves allow you to cancel them? No. Do I use them anyway? No. I play the game like traditional Street Fighter and so far I haven't had any problems.

I barely ever did Roman Cancels in GGX anyway; I knew *how* to do them, but I didn't bother. I never reached a higher level in the game, but I didn't care...I was just trying to have fun anyway.

If you ask me, the game fails on the challenge modes. They should be there to help teach you how to play each character or survive under certain situations (no special moves should be in the beginning of survival, not the end!)

Seth being extremely cheap doesn't help. Once you figure him out though, he's easier to beat then your rival. :P

If You Ask Me, The Achievements Are NO WAY IN HELL n00b Friendly! :(

He probably wanted to seein how Sirlin is a hardcore Smash brothers player.

The game isn't noob-friendly and it shouldn't be. The reason SF doesn't catch on with noobs isn't even because of relatively complex stuff like EX/dash cancelling, it's in the core of SF theory, which goes against what every other, more mainstream fighting game does. In Street Fighter, combos aren't done for you, they're based on knowledge of timing, priorities and button inputs. In most fighting series you can just keep pressing P and K with different directions and it'll kind of string together a combo for you, but if you try that shit in Street Fighter all you get is a punch you have to wait to finish and then a kick that you have to wait to finish. If you press PPPPPPPP you don't get a procedural combo where your guy does a bunch of different moves, you get Ken (since we're on the subject of noobs) doing the exact same punch a bunch of times. When I first played SF I was wondering what people saw in it because there were so many things that I just didn't understand. It seemed extremely shallow when the most complex thing I could do was a shoryuken. I don't think that basic rule of Street Fighter would have changed even if IV didn't have as many complex ideas. At least IV explains how to do stuff, HD Remix gives you 8 screens of tutorial which diverge into ideas way over a noob's head about halfway through. They're both fine games, I just think that trying to give casual players a Street Fighter game is a pointless task.

Is he trying to say SFII HD is much better?

This series middle name is user-unfriendly...

They've loosened up the timing of a lot of the moves and combos... which makes it easier for new players to consistently pull them off.

There is still a lot of depth and complexity there, none of the reviews said there wasn't, but its easier to get going for beginners.

They've just softened the learning curve at the start.

I RAGEEE when I have to fight a LIVE battle with someone playing as Zangief because they just ABUSE the throwing WAYYY too much

Theres nothing wrong with it. Leave it alone!
Street Fighter 4, like all the other the street fighters before it, is like an onion. You can peel away at all the different layers to open up new play styles and strategies. You can choose to play it at whatever level you wish.. either alone, with friends or online. You dont here people compaining that Chess is too hard because there are too many different moves or too many stategies. We should be applauding games that encourage experimentation with different play styles. Give me this over 'yet another scripted FPS' anyday.

He kind of has a point, but it doesn't bother me because I don't worry about the game catering to casual players anyway.

Really though, the most user-unfriendly part of the game is that there's NO FREAKING LOBBY SYSTEM.

Just add that, and I'll be happy forever.

I've logged in many hours into SFIV and can easily conclude this game is not at all for a casual audience. It is hardly even for a audience like myself who plays MANY games (owns all 3 systems, etc). This is a game strictly for a select number of gamers who are willing to dedicate hours and hours of time and practice into one game.

I would not recommend this game to anyone, simply due to the level of difficulty and learning curve needed to enjoy it. Having said that, I have started to master certain techniques and the game has become more enjoyable as a result.

My other complaint, it's unfortunate that Capcom chooses to create AI that can literally do things that normal players could not possible do. It clearly shows a lack of ability on Capcoms part. They knew they couldn't create an AI that was smart, so they had to create an AI that was cheap.

I could offer more complaints, but what's the point?

No, Rhamsey, you got voted down for making a comment on an article about fighting games stating that you don' t play fighting games. Do you seriously not see how your comment was irrelevant?
The only comment you could have made that would have been any more irrelevant would have been "First!!".... and you would have been down-voted for that too.