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Reader Comments (375)

Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:44PM (Unverified) said

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Gentlemen. Put your flamesuits on.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:50PM (Unverified) said

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350 comments minimum.

Seriously though, Microsoft asked for this. And anyone purchasing their 2nd, 3rd or 4th etc 360 asked for this.

All the good games in the world won't removed this stain from their history books looking back. You know, like when they are out of the console race in about 10 years.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:51PM (Unverified) said

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Where do I get one of those? I only have an Advanced Radiation Suit and a Recon Armor.

BRB River City.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:56PM (Unverified) said

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Last time I heard, they could be bought from Reliable Excavation and Demolition and Builders League United.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:04PM (Unverified) said

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I'm not surprised
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:04PM Duke said

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Cody, just stop with your anti MS bs already. Nobody is going to hate their game console because of your tired fanboy arguments.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:11PM DWells55 said

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I've been through quite a few dead consoles and have gotten into the business of fixing failed 360s, so I'd like ot share what I've noticed recently. The E74 which has suddenly become so common shows the same symptoms prior to failure that the three red lights does. Graphic artifacts, in-game freezes, and texture corruption are quite common before the system goes into E74. This was also very common on systems with the three red lights, and, unsurprisingly, the fix is the same as well.

Of the three Xbox 360 consoles I have repaired with E74, reflowing the area around the GPU and CPU, using better thermal paste, and installing an X-clamp replacement has fixed the issue. Not once has the issue been with the scaler (ANA for pre-HDMI, HANA for HDMI systems) as this article suggests. Now, a while back, when the three red lights were common, the problem often was the scaler chip and could be fixed temporarily just by holding the chip down and permanently by reflowing it.

Anyways, what I'm getting at here is that these E74 errors are the three red lights, just presented differently. It's entirely possible for system updates to change the way the system reports errors. Since three red lights indicates "general hardware failure," making the updates affect error reporting does two things for Microsoft:
1. Gives a more specific error message to aid in the repair process.
2. Alleviates them from having to issue a free repair as part of the three year "extended service" plan which was only issued to appease a class-action lawsuit.

Sure, it sounds pretty conspiracy theory-ish, but based on my own experience in fixing E74 systems and observing systems with E74, as well as the findings of others, I wholly believe that this is the case. Microsoft has done aggressive things in system updates before. For example, when the hypervisor exploit was discovered, Microsoft blocked the ability to downgrade with a system update that actually blew eFuses in the CPU (although modders figured out that by removing a resistor, the system could be upgraded without the eFuses getting blown).

tl;dr - Microsoft has simply updated the system so what used to be reported as three red lights is now the E74, creating the illusion that the three red lights failure has been fixed and allowing them to save money from not having to do extended repairs.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:13PM DWells55 said

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Ugh, meant to reply to the post below this one by "InFaMoUs1," sorry.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:19PM (Unverified) said

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Chill out Duke, let's keep it civil. Or would this be a criminal case??

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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:20PM (Unverified) said

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"I've been through quite a few dead consoles and have gotten into the business of fixing failed 360s,"

LOLLLLLLL And what a lucrative business that must be!!
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:25PM MarkezJM said

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Keeping it civil doesn't mean keeping it stupid. Out of the console business in 10 years? If you're going to arbitrarily pull goofy shit out of your ass, by all means, then let's keep it stupid.

So, heaven forbid this happens to my console, can you force your box to RROD so it gets covered/replaced under 3 yr warranty?
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 6:22PM ch3burashka said

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I was going to say this is ironic, but DWells55 has cleared it up for us.

This is NOT cool.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 8:05PM SheppyReturns said

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Cody, let me ask you something. How many peopl think back to NES and think "shit connectors?" How many do the same with SNES? How many people think "bad Laser Arrays" in Playstation.

Historically the system with the most amount of problems ironically tends to get the best library. That remains to be seen this generation... but there is certainly presidence.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 9:20PM DWells55 said

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@Cody:
Business may have been too encompassing a word choice. I fix consoles for friends, people locally, and people on my campus. I like tinkering with the systems and have bought up a couple broken systems which I have since repaired and kept for myself. I make just about enough to replace parts in my own systems (X-clamps, DVD drives, etc.). I'll probably sell the extra consoles I have once they have complete cases and I'm 100% sure they're stable. Anyways, what I'm saying is that it's a hobby - I did the same thing with the original Xbox console.

@Markez:
If you managed to get the system apart without breaking the seal, you could probably just start heatgunning things until the system wasn't capable of reporting anything other than three red lights. However, I'm pretty sure this falls under fraud. Lying and saying that the system sporadically red-rings is more understandable and pretty much justifiable given the error rates and very poor QA by Microsoft, but probably still illegal.

Whatever you do, DON'T pay the $100 Microsoft wants for a repair. They treat the symptoms, not the underlying cause - the replacement system still has the lousy X-clamp system, still is subject to rapid heating and cooling, and still has brittle solder. Best of all, they come with a mere 30 days of warranty (although recently I heard people saying they were told 90 days). Buy a new Arcade console with the Jasper chipset - the 65nm CPU and GPU will produce less heat and the Lite-On DVD drives are the quietest and most reliable thus far. You can sell the broken system for at least $40 on eBay or Xbox-Scene and then sell the extra controller and video and power cable for close to the remaining $60 compared to an MS repair. Most importantly, it's a new system, not a refurb, and has the one-year general warranty.

@protofunc:
The three red lights does still happen, but certainly not like it used to. In fact, last week I had someone give me an E74 box that did the three red lights the first two times I powered it on. I told the guy to get it replaced free via MS's three year plan. My belief that is the three red lights now occur only when the system issue is too severe to display an error message. Something big and involving the CPU rather than a secondary component.


Anyways, Microsoft needs to do the honorable thing and start honoring all problems under the three year warranty, especially given how many things go wrong in these systems - most of them thanks to a faulty design. Then there's the issue of DVD drives failing, there's over 10 different drives (counting different ROMs) that have appeared in 360 consoles, manufactured by Hitachi, Toshiba-Samsung, Philips, BenQ, and Lite-On. It's obvious that the 360 was released before it was ready and that they still haven't figured out how to correct the original faulty design.

And yet, I keep spending time and/or money to fix or replace systems. But I guess that won't change unless I talk all my friends into building gaming PCs, canceling their live subscriptions, and we all figure out a way to get publishers to make less console-exclusives.
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2009 12:25PM (Unverified) said

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Yeah Cody!

It's the consumer's fault!!!

FTW!!!
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2009 2:44AM Ridgecity said

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flamesuit? why? you are going inside a xbox360?? a suit won't save you from molten aluminum.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:45PM s ls said

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lol at Microsoft E74 isn't covered by the warranty because it only has a single red flashing light instead of the RROD.

"E74 is a general hardware error on Xbox 360 indicated by a single red flashing light in the Xbox Ring of Light and an error message visible on the television. This error is unrelated to the three flashing red lights error and there is not a single root cause."
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:54PM (Unverified) said

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Luckily, RROD is so random that you can easily bullshit MS by saying "Yeah, I had three red lights, now it's stuck in E74 only going Red Light every once in a while" and they'll replace it.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:11PM Joeybeast said

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One flashing red light = one year warranty

Three flashing red light = three year warranty

Makes perfect sense to me.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:21PM rhcpsfan said

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I think there is a simple explanation for all these problems-microsoft released the x-box as if it were a piece of software, not hardware. With software, you can release the product early and update it after its hit the market. With hardware, theres only one way to fix a problem; its called a recall. Since microsoft obviously didn't want to let a recall happen they put it off and fixed it ( or attempted to fix it) on the next product refresh. Right about now, they are relising that if you release crappy hardware, problems keep occuring; and even if you fix one, another problem will make it self known. It really is sad that microsofts didn't just admit to the problems the system had and commit to a recall in the begining, but now its too late. Microsoft has already damaged their brand name and lost the respect of at least this customer( who, by the way, has already sent his x-box back 6 times for RROD)
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Posted: Mar 20th 2009 11:38AM adobe64 said

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Why did this comment get so many thumbs down?

He's right i had to pay microsoft 97 dollars so they could tighten a loose scaling chip.

And it ISNT covered by warranty
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2009 2:48AM Ridgecity said

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pressure from bloggers and the users made Microsoft accept the RRoD was their fault and changed their warranty, if this error is their fault again, they'll have to do the same as before and just extend warranty for this other error and any other error than appears.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:46PM tann said

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This cost me nearly £70 to fix about a month after my original 1 year warranty wan out..
My new one is about to run out, it best not break again.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:46PM tann said

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Ran*
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:20PM Negatron said

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E74! RRoD! Ah-gha-blarrgh-argh arf arf !!

Figured i would try and shed some light on this situation by using some logic...

:P
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 5:57PM Ghen said

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no idea why an informational post is voted down.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:46PM Arsenic13 said

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Ugh more bad publicity and a fear for me. Im really hoping the next Xbox isnt going to be prone to this crap. MS's fault for trying to save some bucks and end up loosing a billion.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:01PM (Unverified) said

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Micorsoft didn't loose a billion. "Loose" and "lose" are two seperate words. Possibly you had a typo, which is forgivable.
Probably you have been using loose in place of lose ever since you loose your first tooth.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 6:10PM Godmars said

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The things, how MS retires the 360 is going to have as much effect on their next console as that console's own performance.

If they dump it like the 1st Xbox and then that one starts having problems, I don't see anything that could save them.
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Posted: Mar 27th 2009 5:08PM (Unverified) said

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Your actually going to buy the next xbox? lol.... that cody guy is right you guys get what you deserve, well maybe not the original early adopters but to all the idoits who knew about M$ and rrod, yet they buy it anyway when there is a much better peice of tech out there...its called the ps3 and it has 90% of all games on 360 and more 1st party exclusives. It's laughable when I hear all these people taking thier console in 4,5,6 times, that's time not playing anything.... and you can't compare that to the nes carts as all you had to do to fix that was push air on the connectors. RROd is a disgrace and if this wasn't a company with so much loot the better business bearua would be all over them, the problem is they have so much loot they can buy out the bb, the lawyers, the judge and the government. This is why no company should have this much money or power. You guys need to realize that ms makes crappy hardware. Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice, shame on me for being an idiot and buying a 360.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:46PM (Unverified) said

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Since we're bringing stuff back from 2006, can we bring the economy with us too?
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:50PM Vidikron said

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You seem to be missing the point. They're not saying that this error itself is new, but rather that the number of people getting the error has been on the rise recently. So I'm not sure what you think they're bringing back from 2006?
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:52PM (Unverified) said

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The RRoD epidemic. People were getting that at launch too but there was a point in time where it exploded.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:04PM (Unverified) said

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hmm what could be the reason why reports are going up? hmm nothing obvious like there are more consoles on the market, 360s have been in use longer.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 7:38PM EngadgetSoFunny said

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This isn't really shocking new though tmac. Its really pretty plain and obvious why the E74 errors are going up in quantity. Its not magic, its not weather related, its likely not even NXE related. General hardware failures occur in any electronic products.

The chance they occur increases as items in question become older. For example, a 10 year old tv will be stastically much more likely to encounter a 'General Hardware Failure' much sooner than a 2 year old tv. Some electronics product like a cheap toaster leaves you lucky if the product lasts 2 years. Other products like cars are designed to last 10+ years but during that time you can expect some general hardware failures within your car.

I know, its shocking that both mechanical and electronic products receive general hardware errors. I know its even more shocking that the older products get,the more likely general hardware errrors will occur. I think that Joystiq made up this article to imply it was NXE is bullshit. Its just NXE = 3+ years AFTER the xbox 360 was put on the market. A lot of 360s belonging especially to the early adopters(comprised mostly of video game fanatics/fans likely to visit this kind of websites and respond to the survey) are getting a bit old. When consoles, or any other product start to get a bit old, its pretty natural the likelihood of them breaking down increases.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:27PM (Unverified) said

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In my opinion, it should still be brought up. I don't care how long it's been happening. If it's still happening it should be brought up and people should be demanding that Microsoft fix it. I can see this still being a problem for another 3 years.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 4:45PM borland502 said

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"A lot of 360s belonging especially to the early adopters(comprised mostly of video game fanatics/fans likely to visit this kind of websites and respond to the survey) are getting a bit old."

Another thing that gets old is the constant, almost religious, defense of the 360 against repeated and proven failures. Look, I want to get a 360 for the reasons many own one: The system has some nice exclusives and Live is a good service. But your entire thesis skips the point that while there are known levels of failure for "X" class of product, there are also abnormal levels of failure. Guess which camp the 360 has already proven itself part of?

If 3,000 Ford Trucks have transmission problems after 3 years, but Toyota Trucks only have 500...well I don't give two shits about wear and tear. The Ford Truck has buggy parts. Sure, it's early to call this a disaster on the scale of RRoD; but your earnest anecdotes really don't have much value, much less refute the points in the article.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 6:30PM FredFredrickson said

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"but your earnest anecdotes really don't have much value, much less refute the points in the article."

The entire article is based on earnest anecdotes from anonymous people on the internet. How is one more relevant than the other?

For the record, I'm not saying that E74 doesn't exist, but taking all these silly reports and treating them as fact is just stupid. I do, however, refuse to believe that these problems are "on the rise." If they used E74 to replace the RRoD, reports would be consistent with those. They wouldn't drop off the chart and then suddenly spike again. That makes no sense.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2009 2:21PM (Unverified) said

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One red light, here. I've had my 360 for about a year and a half. I do believe that Microsoft has made consoles manufactured after 2007 flash one red light rather than 3 in order to bypass their 3 year warranty. I will do my best never to purchase another Microsoft product in my life.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:49PM (Unverified) said

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I had 2 faulty x360 in the past but the new one works very well and I had it for more than a year now.It makes the same noises of a broken washing machine during loading times but at least it doesn't scratches my disc like the previous ones.

Now that I want an Elite model.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:23PM (Unverified) said

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ROFL @ It makes the same noises of a broken washing machine during loading times
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:50PM Solid Jackal said

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$100 to get it repaired, dam!
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:50PM MooseMuffin said

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Article is flamebait. The RROD is covered for 3 years because it was a very widespread problem. MS has no reason to extend the warranty for this issue unless it occurs with a similar frequency.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:07PM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said

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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

Imagine that, Joystiq flame baiting AGAINST the 360!?!?!?!?

Fact of the matter is that it happens FAR too much for it NOT to soone be the next RRoD and your fellow 360 folks voting you down is FURTHER proof of just how real it is
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:20PM copa said

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"Sorry, but Microsoft's current stance on E74 isn't good enough for us. We're not going to let this go until we find out why Microsoft lends a hand to some of those inconvenienced by an admittedly shoddy piece of technology, while others have to take a hit in their pocket books."

Any XBox 360 owner who isn't deeply grateful to Joystiq for this is an idiot.

When RROD first surfaced, Microsoft strongly suggested that anyone who suffered from it was abusing their console. Then they went to outright lying about the number of incidents. And then they went into media lockdown mode, refusing to comment on the situation.

This culminated in the humiliating Joystiq interview with Peter Moore, in which he refused to discuss failure rates, and said that nobody cared about that stuff anyways.

So has Microsoft learned anything from the episode that cost them a billion dollars in repairs and customer goodwill? We will only find out if they are pressed for an honest response on E74 errors.

Microsoft's current response is "The majority of customers who own Xbox 360 consoles continue to have a terrific experience from their first day, and continue to, day in and day out."

With Microsoft's track record, I take that to mean 49% of all XBox 360 owners are suffering from the E74 error.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:38PM MooseMuffin said

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I'm not defending MS, they earn the hate they get. But this level of outrage based on a mere handful of completely unsubstantiated reports is unwarranted. If we want to bash MS for issues other than the RROD, lets go with the all the bum dvd drives instead.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2009 1:55AM (Unverified) said

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Think about the people who have had the RROD, gotten a refurbished console only to have it do the E74 error. This just happened to my friend literally two weeks after one year. Microsoft told him $120 on the phone.

I'm sorry, but that is just plain bull shit. The 360's entire warranty should be extended to three years. If they can't do that, then at least every refurbished console needs to get an extended warranty, since most of those were literally broken to begin with.

I've never had any problems with my 360 (knock on wood) but I did have one stolen, which is just as bad, if not worse than a RROD.

I love the 360 but this is ridiculous!!
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 2:51PM (Unverified) said

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Truly xbox360 fans are the greatest. To stick by a console with this type of built quality. Any other company that did this woulda went up in flames, due to have a HUGE net loss. I was reading in another forum from an xbox fan why MS keeps on getting away with it. Well,..cuz ppl continue to buy it. we should boycott to tell MS we don't eat shit like this ..seriously

FLAMESUIT..OON

RED RROD RANGER GOOO !
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:01PM Gun Barrier said

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Its not only that... some people cant afford to buy a ps3 or wii on the side, so they just do the free fix. Also, 360 still provides the best online experience for 360 fans and apparently they all love halo 3 since its still number 1 or 2 on live.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2009 3:04PM (Unverified) said

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truth be told the online for ps3 to xbox360 isn't that different. I agree that the xbox360 is cheaper. but remember the golden rule: you get what you pay for. In the long run maybe you end up spending more money. I mean after 3 years maybe ur box will crap up on you. exclusive games. well that's the deal breaker.. ps3 has lbp, 360 has halo.
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