Sony blames legal hurdles for lack of downloadable UMD games in America
by Andrew Yoon 
{ Mar 25th 2009 at 6:30AM } 
John Koller explains that the ultimate goal of SCEA will be to mirror the content available in Japan. "What's coming out of Japan echoes the way that we look at the world here in North America. They have decided to go full-bore with digital content, and we have as well. All of that's going to happen," he told Wired. Koller blames legal issues for the current dearth of content on the PlayStation Store. "There are a few hurdles you need to jump through. A lot of them are legal, so if you have a music game, for example, you have to clear all those rights. The same goes for any other type of game, there are certain negotiations that still need to be done."
We're not entirely certain what legalities get in the way of digital distribution, but with Apple making a big splash with the iPhone, and Nintendo readying the DSiWare lineup, Sony will have to act quickly. Strange that it seems the company is playing catch-up, when PSP offered this opportunity for years.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Feba @ Mar 25th 2009 7:07AM
Hey, Sony, the Media Manager can already rip CDs (and maybe DVDs; I don't remember and am not inclined to boot into windows just to check) and convert them onto the PSP. Just offer a UMD rip functionality; rip from the disk and put it onto the memory stick. Tie it to the console like downloadable games are. No legal hurdles, we already have a basically unquestioned right to a limited number of backups. If you're concerned about the used games/rental market, require the physical disk to be checked every 30 days or something.
it's an even bigger bonus to consumers, you don't have to worry about fighting with developers and lawyers to get them on your download service, and I for one know there is at least one game that I would instantly buy without hesitation if I could play it off a memory stick instead of having to carry around a UMD for it. Everybody wins, except the lawyers.
P.S. While we're at it, the PS1 used regular CDs. Emulators can play PS1 disks out of your computer's CD-ROM drive, %100 legit, no piracy even for us normal folks who don't have converters. This same ripping technique could be more or less applied to run it the same way that homebrewers have been doing for awhile-- again, consumer bonus, drives people AWAY from piracy, and would cost very little to implement. Wins all around.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 7:38AM
The problem is that emulation requires you own the original game in the first place, which is fine for computers, but for the PSP a full CD will not fit, which rules out PS1/2 games.
Also the point is to get away from requiring discs. They want to distribute stuff through their online store so that there are no discs, no used games, etc.
Think outside the disc...
Levi @ Mar 25th 2009 8:07AM
No matter what they would do to try to make this UMD ripping idea legit, it just promotes piracy. People already do this. Allowing people to rip UMD's would just be one step that pirates take just GIVEN to them by Sony.
I'm sorry, but I really font think this wouldeither ever happen, or be a good thing for all ad you say.
Feba @ Mar 25th 2009 8:17AM
sonicspike: uh, what part of 'ripping' do you not understand? You put PlayStation disk in your CD-ROM drive. You run Media Manager. Media Manager takes the disk in your CD-ROM drive, and converts it to a format that that PSP can read. It then puts this file on to your memory stick, so you can play games off it.
And yes, I understand wanting to get away from disks. But this is a huge improvement while they work out the legal issues with downloadable titles, and provides people a great tool to encourage buying more PSP games. It also provides a solution for those who want to play games, but do not have internet connections which are workable for downloadable titles. For example, if I go visit my little old granny in the middle of nowhere, and I want to play a new game, there's no way I'll be able to buy a downloadable title. I could, however, run into town and grab a UMD.
Or hell, when they phase out UMDs, they could send DVDs to stores that could be similarly converted to memory stick-- put it in my laptop, plug in PSP, transfer. Keeps everyone happy, those who want and need physical media get it, those who want all of their games in the palm of their hand, over the internet, get it too.
Levi: How in the world does this promote piracy? Pirates already have no problem ripping UMDs for their own purposes. If you say "you can run games off a memory stick if you use unofficial firmware", and someone uses that firmware, they achieve that goal. They also have a giant easy route to piracy, where all they have to do is download the game in order to play it.
If you go with the UMD ripping route, you can link the copy to the specific PSP/Account it was ripped for, in the exact same way that downloadable titles work. I can make a copy of my Echochrome, for example, and put it on another PSP, but it will not play. It satisfies my desire to put my games on a memory stick, without getting me into an environment where piracy is possible.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:47AM
I didn't realize you meant transferring games from the computer to the PSP, but the jist of my comment still applies.
I'm not sure if a UMD disc will work in a standard CD/DVD drive, but as for PS1 games, like I said, you'd have to own the original game. PS1 games are a lot harder to come by since they started over 10 years ago and we've gone through two generations since then.
As for PSP games on a DVD, it requires people have both a computer and the technical know-how to do it. Sony could release a program to make the process a lot easier, but I still don't think it would work very well for the average user, and then it would require more time than it would probably be worth (being a temporary fix and all). Not to mention they'd have to re-release the games on a DVD, which itself would probably open a few legal issues.
I think Levi is saying that if they add a way to transfer PS1 games from your computer to your PSP then it wouldn't be long before people are downloading ISOs of PS1 games and converting them to a format that works on the PSP. Also I'm sure most of the games get reworked for the new controls and buttons (PS Home, lack of R2/L2, etc.).
Really they just need to get with it.
Feba @ Mar 25th 2009 9:07AM
Sonic: 1- I'm not suggesting Sony give up the PSOne store, that would be a horrible idea in my opinion. Just that they give people the tools to rip the PS1 disks that they already have to a format their PSP can play. I know I have some games I'd like to convert, that may never make it onto the PSOne store.
2- UMD games would be ripped off the PSP... same way that homebrew does it now. You plug the PSP into your PC, PC puts it on the memory stick. And of course whatever security measures Sony chooses to put in the middle. Same way you download games off the PC store, with the added element of ripping it ahead of time, basically.
3- like I was saying, the Media Manager. If you don't know what I'm talking about, google it, it's a nifty little program. It's how you access the PS Store from your PC. A couple of 'game ripping' expansions is all it would need; and probably a firmware update for the PSP. Heck, the DVDs could include the latest version of Media Manager on the disk, so you could use the PSP without any internet access at all, while still allowing your games to all exist on a single storage medium, with no cart/disk changing.
4- I'm not suggesting they use DVDs as a primary release channel. I'm suggesting they use them as a way to bridge the gap between being almost solely distributing UMDs and solely downloads.
5- Download a PS1 ISO. Burn it to a CD-R. Try to play it on your Playstation. Unless it's modded, it shouldn't work. Same with ripping; the software should be able to tell the difference between a legitimate PlayStation CD, and a home burned copy.
6- Homebrew users have no such problems. I haven't used the PSOne store or homebrew PS1 emulation, but I really doubt Sony can't build a generic emulator that works for most titles. As with the PS3s with software BC, they can release fixes for specific games in firmware updates.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:34AM
How can Sony allow you to rip old games onto new technology without being sued for infringment? It's already against the law, and the ISO version on the internet are already illegal. Sony wouldn't be in the right by promoting it. How does that benefit the original devs of the games? They make no money from it.
Besides, what of those who never had a PS1, how would they rip games they never had apart fro ISO?
I can understand why Sony wouldn't do that, but then I also think they should pick up the pace on negotiating PS1 classic revivals.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 10:02AM
Any way of detecting whether or not a PS1 game is the game itself or the ISO would require something on the end of the computer (since that is where the disc would be). I'm sure you've heard of Daemon Tools. That alone would make it hard to tell the difference between a legitimate PS1 disc and an ISO.
It would be easier to pirate games if they released a PSP Firmware update to support the original PS1 discs via PC. I'm pretty sure most computers can't tell the difference between Daemon Tools and a physical DVD drive, and if they can it's usually by means of DRM or things such as StarForce.
As for UMDs, I say go all out or don't bother at all. Their contracts with the developer should allow for any current and all future games to be released as a digital download. As long as the price stays the same, they should be able to charge the developer the same amount as they do with discs. Perhaps give devs a slight break to attract more?
DangerMouse @ Mar 25th 2009 11:09AM
"How can Sony allow you to rip old games onto new technology without being sued for infringment? "
Can't the same be said for itunes & ripping CD's? In theory, the game has already been sold, but i can understand people passing off UMD's to friends to be ripped. Maybe if they offered something like a certain number of rips for a small fee that can only be accessed based on that account, but even still.
In reality, it will never happen, as sony would just rather re-sell you the game.
McManus @ Mar 25th 2009 3:24PM
Why the hell can't you be in charge of this?
Feba @ Mar 25th 2009 7:18PM
Maverick: 1- No. It isn't illegal. This is the same reason you can rip CDs onto your Mp3 player legally, or your DVDs onto your memory stick, etc. etc. It's perfectly legal to make copies of your own media; mp3 players never would've gotten this far otherwise.
2- yes, isos on the internet ARE illegal. They are not backup copies. Same reason I can rip a CD onto my PC legally, but not send those copies to my friend.
3- Again, this anti-copy technology has existed since at least the *original PlayStation*. Sony would have no problem implementing it.
4- Again, this is an intermediate step, not a replacement for downloads or the PS1 store. It's a way for those of us that already own YourFavoriteChildhoodGameHere to put it on our PSPs NOW, while Sony works out the legal details to make it downloadable for those that don't own it.
Sonic: I've already explained most of this. It doesn't matter if your PC doesn't care if it's a physical copy or an iso backup, the PS1 can detect the difference between an original disk and a copy. The same technology could be implemented in the ripping software.
And no, for the last time, this would make piracy LESS common. Right now, THESE THINGS DO EXIST. If I want to do them, I have to use unofficial firmware. If I do that, all I have to do from there to play pirated media is to download it. However, if Sony were to add these features, they can add copy protection to the copies. In the same way that I can't copy my Echochrome to another PSP and play it, I would not be able to copy my UMD/PS1 copies to another PSP. In the same way, I wouldn't be able to download copies of other people's downloadable games, or then UMD/PS1 titles. You never tempt people, you never introduce the possibility through official firmware. And I already provided a solution to the used games problem that works at least as well as the limitation of 5 systems or so for downloads-- it won't stop friends from sharing their games, but then neither does physical media. It does, however, keep people from selling their old games off and then being able to play them. And popping your disks into your PSP once a month and letting it read them is an extremely minor annoyance, which is completely justified by having your games faster, not having to carry around a bunch of UMDs or change them out the rest of the month.
John @ Mar 25th 2009 7:22AM
I hope they get this all sorted out soon. I really liked being able to download hot shots golf onto my Ps3 and then transfer it to both my PSPs.
Chris D.(PSN: Aggie_CEO | XBL:The Aggie CEO | Steam: Aggie_CEO @ Mar 25th 2009 8:02AM
ummmmmm yea....so what LEGAL Hurdles are keeping them from putting their OWN games up there??? third party titles I can understand. but First Party Titles should ALREADY be up there. I'm not going to by a UMD Copy of Resistance: Retribution when I KNOW that it will be on the PS Store at some point as it already is in the UK
Christopher @ Mar 27th 2009 10:24AM
Licensing gets applied with certain very specific distribution rules. As it is now, they have to get new licensing for these games. In the future, licensing will likely include digital distribution so they don't have to go through the whole process but once.
Chris D.(PSN: Aggie_CEO | XBL:The Aggie CEO | Steam: Aggie_CEO @ Mar 27th 2009 10:32AM
but for their own games tho???
drdre74 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:15AM
Sony has gone from being a Leader to a Follower. They aren't on top of anything these days and I hate to say it. Sony is only hurting itself. Downloads is the must have thing now. How can you be the first device out and be the last device to do the things its been able to do for years now. Sony has been crying this Legal issue for years now. Damn just get the paper work signed.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:22AM
What I don't understand is why legal issues stop SCEA but not SCEI. Same parent company just different regions. I realize that the law is different in Japan, but wouldn't the American law apply to some extent since many of them are American-made games or music?
Would a Japanese game be easier to digitally distribute in America than an American one? Would the reverse be true (American game in Japan)? I just wonder why it seems to be so easy for Sony to do this in Japan and not America (considering it's the same parent company)... or is it really just because SCEI doesn't have the legal loops to jump through because Japan laws are looser?
zzyzx @ Mar 25th 2009 8:29AM
No, American laws have no jurisdiction in Japan. What do come into play are international agreements / treaties on intellectual property rights. But even they allow for different regulatory approaches. It's entirely possible that Japan does protect IP, but in such a way as to facilitate downloadable content.
But whatever. Nintendo is Japanase, too, and they've figured it out. No excuse for Sony.
zzyzx @ Mar 25th 2009 8:30AM
erm, JapanEse. Not sure where that typpo above came from.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:53AM
The Virtual Console is a prime example of how far along Sony should be. Sure they don't have people giving them rights to games made on the SNES/N64 or even Genesis, but the PS1 and PS2 had their own awesome libraries.
What's wrong with just... like... throwing old legal papers in the face of the developers and asking if they want some free money by re-releasing the game as a download for PS3/PSP?
"See, you made this game for us back then! It's basically the same legal stuff it was back then, only instead of a CD it's now on a secure HDD! Come on, it's practically free money with almost no development effort put into it! Please? Pretty please?"
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:29AM
Not necessarily, don't forget, a lot of these old gaming devs for PS1 went out of business or were bought by other companies, so unless the new devs or Sony are willing to revive those old games, a lot of them could remain in thier sealed coffin. Unlike Sega which still very much exists and wouldn't mind handing over old Sonic games to make some pennies and spread the Sonic name, many others don't have that choice.
If it were that easy, we'd have Resident Evil and my beloved Dino Crisis already.
sonicspike41 @ Mar 25th 2009 9:51AM
@Maverick:
I suppose the only difference between SCEA and SCEI in such a case (where the studio closed doors) is local copyrights and other laws?
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 10:36AM
Well, its the issue the EU store had, Japan and America both had plenty more content then the EU previously, mainly because of translation and legal issues. Wipeout for example was an easy port seeing as it was made here to begin with and the business is now owned by Sony itself. Sony also has a few other partners willing to distribute thier content on the PSP, but what is taking Square and Capcom so long you have to ask yourself. They have mentioned putting thier old games on the store, but how long ago did they say that? And the temptation of money has been put in front of them too.
Capcom is only now becoming more serious about rereleasing old games. What about Konami, whats with releasing MGS in Japan and not here? I can only assume its down to the work involved, time or legal issues.
shadowhowl1900 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:36AM
they could just make the Japanese PS store have support for US credit cards and be in english.
Feba @ Mar 25th 2009 8:38AM
They'd also have to remove the limitation of only having your PSP 'logged in' to one account at a time.
Sexualchocolate @ Mar 25th 2009 8:40AM
We have those full games on the PS Store already here in the UK. I take it we don't have the same "hurdles" over here.
i bought Patapon 2 the other day - my first full game purchased on the PS Store - it's brilliant and my battery lasts more than twice as long running games from the Mem stick.
I also read that the new Monster Hunter Freedom Unite will allow you to install the game onto the memory stick, not sure if you'll be able to play it without the disc though. Will have to wait and see.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:19AM
Just what I was waiting to hear, I've been waiting over a year for MH2G ¬_¬
Sexualchocolate @ Mar 25th 2009 10:07AM
Me too, desperate for it now!
MHF2 is still going strong though even after 370 odd hours!
Just smashed up a Shen Gaoren with a hammer in my lunch break. God I love that game.
Gutted that MH3 isn't going to be a beautiful, High Def, PS3 masterpiece, don't fancy a wii wagglefest. Bummer.
ScottG13 @ Mar 25th 2009 8:59AM
This makes absolutely no sense. In all honesty. "Legal hurdles?" Umm... that's what you take care of WELL before you publish a title. No wonder Sony dropped such a huge turd this gen. They can't even line up licensing rights.
VedicHymn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:48AM
Yeah, I agree. If Sony is seriously blaming licensing issues on why they can't get their own games out to their own store to play on their own console, then something is seriously wrong there.
LM2007 @ Mar 25th 2009 9:01AM
i thought at first that the store was great..but thinking now it really sucks. New Games are available like patapon 2 (European store) but the damn prices are higher than UMD. I think the store should be a way to save some bucks, not waste more bucks, specially old games that still high in price. But hey, is what i fell right now, i don't know you guys. The only positive thing (for now)i see is that i can save games on dvd-r if i'm not playing them for a while to free space in my pro duo.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:23AM
I dunno, a few prices are higher, but some are higher in store, GAME still is one of the most expensive places to get games. Last time I checked, Locoroco 2 in there was more expensive, not only that, it released much later, by then I would have downloaded and completed the DD version.
You have a point, but I think it's overall convenience that makes the small price increase more worthwhile. I just don't buy the old games that have full whack price I can get in Gamestation second hand for about £10 or less. Eg, why buy world tour soccor if it came out on PSStore for £19.99 when you can get it at gamestation for £1, lol
aj @ Mar 25th 2009 9:11AM
I think digital distribution is a horrid idea, but I do like getting old games for 5$.
I do wonder why in the hell Sony can't deal with this. Nintendo is releasing Commodore 64 games, for crap's sake!
SoCoolCurt (PSN: KillaKornbread - XBL: SoCoolCurt) @ Mar 25th 2009 8:47PM
me too. you think people cry about DRM now? wait until they go DD full on. they will have complete control over our collection. sure the convenience is nice in not having to leave the house i guess but it's not worth loosing all the flexibility in what i can do with the game i purchased.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 9:17AM
I'm guessing Japan and UK share the same rights, recently, Patapon 2, Socom: Fireteam Bravo, Resistance Retribution, Splinter Cell Convictions, Endwar, Twisted Metal and a number of other original UMD games have popped up onto the store, and it looks like another 5 will be popping up by thursday with luck.
Looking foreward :D
Its seems I'll be downloading Monster Hunter 2G instead of buying the UMD
vaglar @ Mar 25th 2009 10:02AM
One thing about the Jpn PS store. I'm living in Japan at the moment and I use that store quite often. I had a look at the US PSN last week and I must say I was surprised to see how many UMD games are available for download. Sure the JPN PSN gets tons of PS1 titles, but as far as PSP ones are concerned, there aren't many (not even 20). 90% of the PSP titles are published by Sony which is why they are also put on the PSN for download. As for other games, only UMD is available.
The US PSN on the other hand is getting richer and richer as far as PSP games are concerned. They even republish "old" games like Killzone (2006) which is quite a smart move. The JPN PSN is just starting going digital for PSP games.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 25th 2009 10:31AM
Doesn't suprise me, the UK storre only started pumping out actual PSP games a few months ago, before that, we were screaming for good stuff, in fact, of all the stores, I'm sure EU had the least content, its working its way back up.
Popfrogs @ Mar 25th 2009 11:52AM
"They even republish "old" games like Killzone (2006) which is quite a smart move."
That's a smart move. Eventually I hope all games are available this way, it's a decent way to utilize a long-tail strategy for less popular gems that may get discovered years after they've left the shelves at retailers. Not only that but the publisher saves alot of money by not having to press discs and print manuals.
cylet @ Mar 25th 2009 10:36AM
Oh, and here I thought they didn't care....
butlersp @ Mar 25th 2009 11:30AM
Legal issues? Sony Bend has a legal problem putting Resistance: Retribution out for download on the US store but not in Japan or Europe? Interesting.
I like the idea of copying the games from current UMDs through media manager or even PS3 with a patch for both the PS3 and PSP. Even upgrade Media Manager to version 4 and have me register my PSP & PS3 in the software and allow a network connection with the PS3 and desktop. With PSP games popping up on the Stores more frequently it would lead me to believe that the rumored PSP-4000 will be driveless much like the i(insert product here). Didn't Jack Trenton already sorta state that part of the download process for the videos was to include the users PSN ID and some form of a system serial number into the file? Sony already has a security feature on the PSP demos its not like they they are new at it.
A second thought is when is the PSP "emulator" coming to PS3? Not PSP Plus since PSP-1000 does not support video out. There might was well be a PSP icon on the XMB for PSP games, demos & saves. Let me play the games on PS3 as well as remote play.
My final thought is that if there is going to be direct downloads as well as the physical copies at retail shouldn't the direct downloads be $5 to $10 cheaper since there is no packaging, shipping, disc pressing or middleman.
Popfrogs @ Mar 25th 2009 11:55AM
"Let me play the games on PS3 as well as remote play. "
I like this idea also, kind of a reverse Remote Play. I bet alot of PS3 owners that don't have a PSP would like to pick up some PSP games to play on the big screen. Plus there are some really fun titles that cramp my hands and strain my eyes on the PSP, I can't count the number of times I said "Jesus, if only I could use a sixaxis on this game".
Mel Marcelo @ Mar 25th 2009 12:31PM
I bet it's not a legal hurdle but a hurdle with retail buyers.
Why would a store want to stock PSP games if they have to compete with online distribution. I'm sure Sony is desperate for any shelf space they can get for the PSP.
I wish I could have bought Phantasy Star Portable online. I had to buy a used copy of Ridge Racer since my original UMD went kaput.
I would easily buy Patapon 2 if it was available online.
Virtuous @ Mar 25th 2009 2:47PM
When you're incompetent, blame everyone but yourself. People are tired of Sony complaining about getting beaten by the competition.
maskerose @ Mar 25th 2009 8:53PM
Oh well. I prefer UMDs anyway...
Tateru Nino @ Mar 25th 2009 10:15PM
The primary legal hurdle is licensing. A lot of music licensing is done on a per-country or per-region basis. This same sort of thing happens with older movies that are being released on DVD - your copy of The Breakfast Club in some regions may not contain all the same songs on the soundtrack that you remember in the cinema.
For games, you may have licensed some track or tune from whoever has the rights in *your* country. To get the game into another country you usually have to then license the tune from whoever has the rights to it there, and either accept their terms, try to negotiate a better deal, or replace the track.
For games where the track is somehow integrated with gameplay (singstar, dance games, guitar hero, or whatever) then replacing the track may mean also reworking game data. Plus, a licensor may want to be listed in the credits, which may mean the game credits or manuals need updating...
And so on. People are paid to grapple with these things full-time because content-licensing hassles like this rear up almost every time you cross a border.
That's why some digital-distribution titles aren't available in some countries. An exclusive license (usually for X months or years) has already been signed with some distributor or agent for the game to manufacture/assemble/distribute the game to retail stores. You can go back and try to renegotiate with them to allow you to digitally distribute in their licensed area, but it isn't in their interests to agree.
butlersp @ Mar 25th 2009 11:22PM
Ah Lawyers. I agree to some extent but when it is a Sony title release by a Sony Company/subsidiary for release around the world that already has not been settled? I find it hard to believe (but the sad thing is I can) that when Sony Bend (989) finished Resistance: Retribution the Japan and EU stores had the digital download full game a full week before the US. Also the demo was out for download for free about a month before it was able to be downloaded here. One would thing Sir Howard and Kaz would want some form a uniformity.
Tateru Nino @ Mar 25th 2009 11:49PM
Even a first party title might fall afoul of long-standing deals with local distributors. The music in that title was all original, I believe. A month's delay? That's not very long in legal terms. I wonder if that was just a bump in getting a local rating. The ESRB public database doesn't seem to specify the date of application or of classification.
jamie @ Mar 26th 2009 5:17AM
How much space does a game like Resistance Retribution take up anyway? What with Battlestar Galactica and Lost being on GoView, I;ve generally only got a couple of gigs of space on my card, and my saved games are on there too. If I've got to change cards, I might as well change umd's, or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...