If indie devs thought that XNA Community Games would be the ticket to untold riches ... well, let's just say they may not want to toss their name tags and hairnets just yet. Mobeen Fikree, the force behind
caffeine monster software, revealed his XNA sales numbers, which he deemed disappointing. Of the 7595 downloads his game
DUOtrix had received, only 157 were converted into full purchases, a conversion rate of around two percent. Unsurprisingly, Fikree doesn't think its an issue with his game's quality, rather blaming the lack of a user-rating system that allows the best games to rise to the top.
Though it didn't disclose all the numbers,
Mommy's Best Games agreed, saying that the sales of fairly well-publicized
Weapon of Choice fell well below expectations. Are you an XNA dev with numbers to share? Let
us know!
{ Mar 30th 2009 at 12:30PM } 
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 30th 2009 12:33PM
I have to admit, I rarely ever use anything on XNA, and I never have I bought anything
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 30th 2009 12:34PM
The community games I'm talking about, that sounded general >.
Duke @ Mar 30th 2009 1:11PM
I think that's pretty common. I blame two factors here 1) No achievements. 2) No user reviews. The bigger issue I am betting is achievements though. Many people expect to get those points when they play a game and don't pay for titles without them. I bet if they allowed even 50 points in one of these games the sales would jump.
Erluti @ Mar 30th 2009 1:43PM
They can't put Gamerscore on XNA games because people like me would get rich of off a black screen that said "Press A!" and then you'd get that little bloop.
Don't get me wrong - I *love* achievements. But I really don't weigh how easy/hard the achievements are (or if they exist) into my purchase. Do people really do that?
It's just now that I've graduated college and living in "real" life, I don't have time to try out dozens of demos. And since there isn't a way to review XNA titles, I do want to bother sifting through the crap to find the gems. And since my friends don't either, I don't expect they'll ever tell me if they find a real winner.
Maverick Saturn @ Mar 30th 2009 1:43PM
I agree, I believe thats part and parcel of the reason I don't buy, with the added fact that you never know what is good and what is meh until you try, and you won't try all, they should have a star rating
Vidikron @ Mar 30th 2009 1:44PM
@Duke
I think you nailed the issue completely. There really does need to be a user rating system. Some of the XNA games are really pretty bad, but there are some good games in there. The problem is that there aren't many, if any, reviews to be found. People don't review games like they review official releases. So without reviews many people simply aren't going to waste their time trying to figure out which ones are good.
And, yes, I agree that having even a small amount of achievements would result in a sales boost. People are more willing to try out games they are unfamiliar with if they can at least get a few point added to their gamescore.
Neuromancer @ Mar 30th 2009 2:00PM
Erluti, what about a single 10GS acheivement per community game? It'd be better than nothing but it wouldn't break the system.
Mike @ Mar 30th 2009 4:08PM
Check out Groov. You won't be disappointed.
Tiptup300 @ Mar 31st 2009 2:56AM
I just want a ratings system.
SoulBlade @ Mar 30th 2009 12:35PM
Indie XNA devs should switch over to developing for the iPhone. It's more lucrative for them.
samfish @ Mar 30th 2009 12:39PM
I doubt it. The App Store is a massive clusterfuck of crap at this point. At least there isn't much competition in the community games thing.
Noshino @ Mar 30th 2009 12:48PM
More lucrative? Maybe
But then again, there is the 90 days refund problem...
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/iPhone+news/news.asp?c=12333
No one is safe...
Dr. Stabbingworth @ Mar 30th 2009 1:22PM
The Apple refund rumor is mostly bunk:
http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/87k3h/apples_iphone_app_refund_policies_could_bankrupt/
Noshino @ Mar 30th 2009 1:34PM
Because 1 developer?
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/25/apples-iphone-app-refund-policies-could-bankrupt-developers/
They have the full contract, and many other sources have confirmed it as well, the fact that it didn't happen to this 1 developer doesn't mean that it won't happen, and the fact that developers have already signed this is the scary part
Jcarpio @ Mar 30th 2009 1:36PM
So instead of competing against hundreds of titles, you go against thousands? How does that translate into more success? Plus you have to develop your iPhone apps on Macs. And do iPhone apps get peer tested and reviewed? or just thrown onto the system?
The iPhone has alot of influencers out there.
The Community games section just needs more publicity from Microsoft on the dashboard. There are alot of gems there. And good alternatives to XBLA titles. Namely Death Tank (1200pts) vs Battle Havok (400pts)
SoulBlade @ Mar 30th 2009 2:18PM
I'd say it's more lucrative because the install base is so much bigger - mobile apps are where people really can just impulse buy. iPhone users tend to get bored, want a quick fix, and don't mind paying 1-5 bucks for a game. They know what kind of quality they'll get with 1 dollar.
XNA downloaders are at least experienced gamers - I'd argue that they demand more quality compared to those looking for a fix on iPhone. Basically, you can make some money selling crappier games on an iPhone - if you're an indie developer, you may not have the time and money to spend on making a quality app - you might be able to polish it enough for release, but that might not be enough to satiate a 360 gamer.
butaneko @ Mar 30th 2009 2:22PM
The App store might be loaded with a lot of crapware at this point but it's hard to argue with the $ potential on iPhone if your game gets a bit of buzz around it. Make a good game on the iPhone and you will be successful. I hear a positive review of a game on iPhone that is in the $1-$3 range and I'll buy it without much hesitation. A large part of that is the ease of purchase and instant gratification factor. I need to hear a lot of buzz about an XNA title to get me to check it out.
John Z @ Mar 30th 2009 2:50PM
HAHAHAHAHANO.
I would much rather release a Community Games title that gets almost no sales than deal with the abject cluster%$#$ that is Objective-C (the programming language you HAVE to use on the iPhone/Mac OS X). XNA is a much nicer API, and it's much easier to develop for than the iPhone-- in my experience. Other folks may be able to wrap their heads around Obj-C easier than I; more power to them.
SoulBlade @ Mar 30th 2009 3:39PM
@John Z
I never said anything about which was easier ;) I prefer C# to Objective C anyday.
ill trooper @ Mar 30th 2009 5:40PM
Samfish, your argument makes little sense.
FUD, actually.
A typical Gamestop is still full of crap, used games, discounted HALO 2 action figures from McFarlaine, sales bins, but yet I still manage to go in and get the game I want.
The good apps on the AppStore are reviewed as such, there are several sites that cover iPhone apps, and friends tell each other about good finds - including the instant over-the-air purchase that helps push impulse buys by interested consumers, versus the 'write this down and check it out later on your 360 when you get home' thing the XNA system is hindered by because it's for the home.
You're suggesting that the nearly totally-ignored XNA system is better to stay with because it's less crowded, but by lacking any review system, and inherently not being able to benefit from a 'hear about it, open the app store on your phone and buy it' ecosystem, it's even WORSE for devs I would say, as they're likely even MORE doomed to stay in obscurity on the XNA Community - simply put, almost no one cares about that thing. I'd put better odds on quality being recognized in the crowded AppStore, because more people access it. Not to mention the XNA games are pretty expensive in comparison!
I would suggest a better gameplan might be to switch over to the iPhone, a platform that's just devouring quality games when they arrive right now, get some traction, and then develop the game to be sold like 'Geometry Wars' or 'Everyday Shooter' for the 360/PS3 if the game shows crossover potential.
Go where the interested consumers are, devs.
samfish @ Mar 30th 2009 12:38PM
This doesn't surprise me, considering that Community Games are sort of viewed as...'lesser games', I think. When you have people going in thinking "These are the cheap, ghetto games", you'd have to really blow their xocks off with your game's quality, since I imagine a lot of those folks have basically already made up their mind or have a stigma against those kind of smaller, indie games.
In other words, from what I can tell, people think of the service as the Flash games of XBL.
Markez @ Mar 30th 2009 12:46PM
Pretty much, for me at least. Especially because there are so many of them. And especially since I came across one that simply let you control the rumble in the controller. Wheee
"Of the 7595 downloads his game DUOtrix had received, only 157 were converted into full purchases" I don't really have a good frame of reference to make a comparison, but I'm sure the conversion rate on every XBLA & XNA game is pretty abysmal. I'd venture that most people, upwards of 90% I'd guess, downloading demos never have any sort of intention on making a purchase.
Dopple Boppler @ Mar 30th 2009 12:58PM
"I'd venture that most people, upwards of 90% I'd guess, downloading demos never have any sort of intention on making a purchase."
Haha, that's definitely true for all my 360 owning friends. One of them filled up the majority of his 20 gigabyte hard drive with demos, but the only full game he had was Geometry Wars, and that's because I bought it. Freaking cheapskate.
Roto13 @ Mar 30th 2009 1:02PM
The only game I've ever bought based on the demo was World of Goo. There are other games I've rented, but none I've bought. (Well, except for games I was planning to buy anyway before playing the demo, but those don't count.)
Jim Perry @ Mar 30th 2009 12:40PM
I've bought Carnivale, Miner Dig Deep and downloaded a bunch of other community titles.
I think the developers should price them 200-400. I think that is the sweet spot. Why Carnivale was a community game and not a regular XBLA release is beyond me... it is superb.
Lots of good titles on there to try out though.
tenor77 @ Mar 30th 2009 12:47PM
I've done some XNA programming but haven't published anything yet. I view it as a hobby for me, and nothing more.
I want to help support these guys, I just don't have the time to d/l many games. The games I have played have been excellent.
From my point of view they should be looking for the exposure and experience. This is a good way to help you get a job, but to make it big just by making an indie game? Doubt it.
Descender @ Mar 30th 2009 12:52PM
I think tenor nailed it right on the head. I've looked at XNA and have been debating putting in some hours to do a little toying around on the 360 Console, but it'd be for little more than 1) experience with coding on a console, and 2) something to put into my portfolio of things I've done. You're really not gonna make it big doing XNA. You'd probably have a better chance getting noticed doing modifications for big games with big modding communities.
Neuromancer @ Mar 30th 2009 2:02PM
Groov is pretty cool too.
Chris @ Mar 30th 2009 12:44PM
Yeah I dont think anybody gives a toss about XNA games aside from Microsoft and the developers and their families.
I couldn't agree more with SoulBlade, the iPhone is a hot bed of indie development, the agument about it being all crap is ignorant nonsense. Not only are their quality games but iPhone gaming is getting it's own dedicated media coverage.
http://www.AppGamer.net
http://www.SlideToPlay.net
http://www.TouchArcade.com
Noshino @ Mar 30th 2009 1:23PM
"but iPhone gaming is getting it's own dedicated media coverage."
and?... the fact that it is getting dedicated media coverage means squat, hell, even the N-gage had dedicated media coverage...
And also this statement isn't true
"the iPhone is a hot bed of indie development"
Most of the best products on it are not from indie studios
"the agument about it being all crap is ignorant nonsense."
The argument isn't "everything is crap" but rather "most game available on the App store are crap"
mynk @ Mar 30th 2009 3:44PM
i dont think you got his point.
personally, i hate almost every game on the platform
and have bought community games for my 360...
but, im not a retard or blind
anyone can tell that media coverage means a lot
maybe it doesnt make the app better, which it doesnt
but it gives it a bigger user base, higher profits
and thus motive to make better apps.
if Microsoft can market and implement community games well
it might just be the next big thing it promised to be
but right now, they still need to move up a few levels
much higher than iphone yes, but at upto that first.
a big thing for XNA games is that they are running against XBLA.
and even more, running agaisnt all those retail games.
with i phone, you read about a game you buy, you get bored
with XNA, you think, you check out, you download free..
you get bored, you never buy..
so i think a little better implementation with small changes
and XNA will be on it's way.
it may not be an iphone killer in popularity
but in quality, it is the iphone killer allready.
aaron @ Mar 30th 2009 12:43PM
I agree about the rating system.... live really needs to get a rating/review system going. and MS should have a weekly spotlight (like their insidexbox stuff) where they highlight 2 or 3 games a week that are new and good. the biggest problem with community games is finding the good ones and you cant even really tell that from the screenshots. Having some highlighted with video each week would help alot.
c0bra95 @ Apr 2nd 2009 2:00PM
I've been around a long time. I tried my hand at creating small games and selling them through the APX. That's Atari Program Exchange, a project similar to XNA for the Atari 8-bit micros (400, 800). Atari's interest was in making more software available for their machines. Users wanted to sell their creations. What I'm reading here about XNA disappointment is deja vu (as is XNA itself). The quality of most software is too amateur, and there is no good way to know what, if anything, is worth paying for. It doesn't surprise me in the least. Maybe this time around the problem can be rectified soon enough to save the outlet. There's no danger of the games market crashing now like it did in '83. So at least that won't make it more difficult.
tmacairjordan87 @ Mar 30th 2009 12:44PM
I've never bought one and I don't intend to anytime soon. They just seem like cheap mostly crappy wastes of time. Besides, those points add up quick and I need better things on the store like Fallout DLC or even the ocassional xbla game.
SteveDaWonder @ Mar 30th 2009 12:50PM
Add achievements and I think the sales would improve.
ThatNinja @ Mar 30th 2009 12:56PM
250 Gamer score 400 ms points!
Jonman @ Mar 30th 2009 12:47PM
Where to start? The entire Community Games thing is borked on so many levels.
First and foremost problem is quality. Most of the ones I've tried are worse than Flash games I can play for free on Kongregate or Newgrounds. You want me to pay money for that? Forget it. Half the time I feel cheated of the time I've spent playing the demo, let alone parting with cash.
Second is the 'sea of crap' phenomenom. Discovering the good games is nigh-on-impossible.
Third is the price. By and large, these need to be priced for impulse purchase, less than $5. Two hundred MS points is a perfect price point for an impulse purchase, to be played for a day, then discarded.
nikescar @ Mar 30th 2009 12:50PM
I would say that the average Xbox 360 user doesn't even know about Community Games let alone what they are all about. This is something Microsoft has had problems with since the original Xbox. They throw a bunch of cool features at the console but Average Joe didn't even know there was a HDD in there.
I whole-heartedly agree with the rating system. Just a 5 star system only available to people who bought the game would do wonders. They could at least put it on Xbox.com since that wouldn't take a NXE update.
I'll be happy with 200 sales if/when I finish my XNA game. Just seeing it up there will fill me with pride and that is reward in itself.
Rhamsey @ Mar 30th 2009 12:50PM
psh, i have lots of downloads on mine, however, i do games for windows, which is free to make and share with people, unlike the xbox, which is probably why. if i do turn mine into a 360 game though, id make it 50 points, something people wouldnt mind spending. after all, more people will probably download it than a 200 and up point game.
DJcube @ Mar 30th 2009 12:53PM
How about something like "XBLA in Brief" for Community Games?
Greg Lewis @ Mar 30th 2009 12:56PM
Guess these are the next folks that are gonna be asking for money from the government! Excuss me, I mean the tax payer. The government makes nothing and every muscle it moves is paid for by the taxpayer....which is you and me.
Universal health care? Folks, that's paid for by you, me, every working XNA creator and every US citizen working with joystiq.
If you're a liberal and reading this and you hate big government or big business then you need to step back and review your life and your stances.
Cause last time I checked liberals just loved big government, and that wasn't always the case.
Kristian @ Mar 30th 2009 1:10PM
You're kind of an idiot aren't you?
Duke @ Mar 30th 2009 1:13PM
Greg, I am by no means a liberal and even I think your rant there was misplaced and useless.
Markez @ Mar 30th 2009 1:13PM
You and Bass Mastertard should hangout together, housing bags and bags of doritos, while the two of you moan and whine about the XNA developers bailout.
el serpiente @ Mar 30th 2009 1:15PM
CUCKOO-CUCKOO
Lord Negatron @ Mar 30th 2009 1:38PM
You soggy banana peel. Why don't you catch a rare non-terminal sickness or ailment that your "insurance" doesn't cover? By the way my militia does not pay taxes, we get food by hunting with large military weaponry and reproduce by sharing our wives.
Ryguy226 @ Mar 30th 2009 1:59PM
Mr. Lewis, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this site is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
jason w @ Mar 30th 2009 2:21PM
Dude im my precinct chair person for the Republican Party in my county and I wouldnt even have posted that crap in here. It has nothing to do with the story...
Now for the user created games. I liked the bowling one a few weeks back but most kind of suck and take way to much effort to find the good ones. A rank system like on Itunes for paid and free would be good.
aggrazel @ Mar 30th 2009 12:56PM
I love my xbox but honestly I feel that the NXE is a complete and utter failure. Maybe I'm the clod, but I think that navigating NXE is clunky, slow, and counter-intuitive. I can't understand why simple things (like finding a game I'd like to play) seems to take forever. Why can't it cache some data? Why does every time I load my game list it takes nearly a minute to load the list?
The NXE has some great features, but ease of use isn't one of them. I understand sacrifices to usability have to be made since you're usually using the thing from a controller, but honestly the navigation on the original dashboard seemed easier to me.
MarkHawk @ Mar 30th 2009 1:02PM
I wouldn't say XNE is a failure but I think we've reached the points where some of those issues should be addressed in a spring update.