The Maw dev on the 'negative stigma' of DLC

by Richard Mitchell on Mar 31st 2009 5:00AM

Speaking to Gamasutra, Twisted Pixel CEO Michael Wilford spoke about the company's recent release The Maw. Specifically, Wilford addresses the game's DLC, two episodes of which are now available. Wilford stated that Microsoft requires Xbox Live Arcade developers to disclose plans for DLC up front and Twisted Pixel decided that extra levels would make sense. He noted further that the company didn't even start development on DLC until the main game had been finished.

This point is of particular importance, as the DLC's "Deleted Scene" label has caused some confusion and ire among gamers. Wilford stated that the deleted scene idea made sense to the team, saying, "We thought it would be cool, but I think some people took it to mean that we intentionally stripped out levels that were 100 percent complete only to sell them as DLC, which is not the case."

When asked about the risks of creating DLC, Wilford said, "The biggest risk that caught us off guard is the public perception that you're trying to rip them off." He went on to say it's arguable that the concept of DLC has enough "negative stigma" that "it's not even worth attempting." There are examples of successful DLC, according to Wilford, but they are relatively few.

[Update: Two episodes -- not just one -- of Maw DLC are currently available.]

Source

Tags: dlc, maw, Microsoft, the-maw, twisted-pixel, xbla, Xbox-360

Reader Comments (44)

My favourite DLC has been Lost and Damned and the Crackdown extras.

Eh? What goodies can you get for Crackdown via DLC?

Release a full game, then ADD something to that game. That's all people want from DLC. Don't hide things that we could just unlock normally and charge us for it. Not directed at The Maw, but just in general.

I think I agree that devs should not attempt it. This would set the standard notion that gamers will not accept anything as acceptable DLC. In turn, gamers get the piece of mind that the game is complete on day 1 and that anything that will ever come in the form of DLC will have been thoroughly developed and thought out like the expansion for Fable 2 than costume packs. I do not believe that devs not attempting it will abolish all DLC since they are a company looking to turn a profit... I think if gamers unanimously agree that devs should not attempt DLC, devs will either drop the idea of nickel and diming us for every little thing, or only put more time and effort into creating something worth the money.. since that's what they're after.

Argh... it's so late...

"In turn, gamers get the piece of mind that the game is complete on day 1 and that anything that will ever come in the form of DLC will have been thoroughly developed and thought out like the expansion for Fable 2 AND NOT LIKE the costume packs. I do not believe that SAYING DEVS SHOULD NOT attempting it will abolish all DLC since they are a company looking to turn a profit..."

...

"BE"

...

Find out where that should be put in my quote...

As opposed to that positive stigma we're always hearing about.

A bit over-redundant, wasn't it?

DLC, "not even worth attempting"?

Guys, that is the sound of complaints and dollar voting working.

DLC is worth attempting, when it's free. Reward me with free DLC, and I'll buy your next game. I own every Valve game put out. Why? Because they're not charging me for my Team Fortress 2 weapon updates. I'll be sure to buy their next release. I regret my purchase of Unreal 3 because no one played, but then they released the Titan pack for free and re-promoted the game. Now I'll be picking up Unreal 4 when it comes out

Treat me like a client, and you'll keep my business. If you treat me like a customer, and constantly try to sell me DLC at every turn, I'm going to have to evaluate and justify my purchases. I might just wait until your Ultimate Pack with all DLC included is in the bargain bin

I think you should look into The Maw before you start making these comments... Your 800 point game includes a premium theme (once you complete the game) plus a couple of gamerpics, so I'd say TwistedPixel have already given you free DLC!

On top of that, the 'deleted scene' that has been released so far is only 100msp, so not exactly as if they are ripping you off for an extra hours worth of play!

I'm sure a lot of devs want to do free DLC, Microsoft just won't let them.

There's also DLC on Playstation and Wii you know ;p

Burnout Paradise has some great examples of good and bad DLC. The free stuff was great - making timed challenges based on the success of the standard Freeburn challenges, experimenting with boostless cars and bikes. There's also Big Surf Island (when it's eventually released) which takes aspects that people like about Paradise City (big jumps, exploration) and makes a new area based on that.

Then there are the car packs. While they're mostly suitably different from the main cars (I bought them all because I love the game), they are overpriced.

I think that DLC is best when it's either made to test out new ideas or designed around feedback collected after the game is out. And reasonably priced.

When it comes to DLC, whether it's worth paying for depends entirely on what you get.

I've bought all of the car and track packs for Forza 2 because my friends and I still play online religiously, and we want access to all the extras. But charging money for DLC packs that add costumes to a fighter (I'm looking at you, Capcom) or some such thing? Usually not for me. I vote with my wallet.

When DLC adds "additional episodes" to a game that's already out -- like The Lost and Damned for GTA IV -- then if it's well done, it's worth the money. In the old days, that kind of expansion for GTA would have been pressed onto a disc and sold retail, possibly for close to full price. DLC enables us to get it over the Internet and for far shy of $60. I'll happily purchase it once I get back to my Xbox (I'm away from home at present).

I also agree with EGOvoruhk's remarks about Valve. Valve is one of my favorite developers because they put out a great product, /and/ they provide additional value after the sale -- usually for no extra charge.

I like the "deleted scenes" angle, it even looks like a dvd movie menu a bit so it does make some sense.

There are actually already two dlc's, as stated above only 100 points and add 1 extra level. Very enjoyable game although I wish the camera angle was better in some instances.

You guys do know that the deleated scene is already in the game. When you pay for the scene all you are downloading is the key to unlock a level that is already in the game.

Think you should check your facts before posting! It IS NOT an unlock key!

http://www.teamteabag.com/2009/02/18/first-deleted-scene-dlc-released-for-the-maw/

It is on PC! Each pack is about 270kb. I might have believed Twisted Pixel's excuses about the 360 DLC, but there is zero reason why it could not have been included with the game on PC.

Its companies like Capcom and Namco Bandai that have lately sullied the waters of the DLC name (SF4 costumes, SC4 darth vader/yoda, MM9 proto/modes, and RE5 with versus).

It sucks how one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch in the industry working of DLC, Twisted Pixel have done a stellar job in DLC department.

The Maw is without a shadow of a doubt a great piece of gaming for 800 MSP. Not only the game, you get a free premium theme for the NXE (250MSP) and a couple free gamerpics too. The value is awesome.

And I can easily see how the 'deleted scenes' fit into 640K filesize, considering the original game is around 2GB crunched into 150MB (amazing job too, look at trial version if dont believe me).

I don't know, the burnout paradise packs were quite good! as for everything else they do.........ehhh.

The only thing negative for me is that DLC cost seems to run at about 2x the value. It'd be okay if those prices eventually fell, but they never do. e.g. Oblivion DLC has a couple items that are now available in a GOTY edition. It's cheaper for me to buy the disc new than the equivalent DLC. Something is broken there.

Have to agree with you there... I waited until the Shivering Isles came out on a disc and bought that, so for less than the cost of downloading just the Shivering Isles I got both it AND Knights of the Nine... That's pretty messed up! The costs of the DLC should go down as the game gets older, I mean who is going to splash £20 on an Oblivion expansion when you can get the entire game for less than that now!

The GoTY edition is Oblivion + Knights of the Nine + Shivering Isles, so of course most of the downloaded content is there.

I thought there were 2 DLC packs for the Maw so far.

Good to see developers stepping up and telling people how idiotic they're being with their assumptions. This guy did a much better job of it than the Capcom rep who was so ticked off about it he lost his cool.

The biggest misperception that's causing all the issues is that people think that when DLC is announced or even worked on prior to the game's release that it is something they would've gotten for free on the disc otherwise, which as I've said all along is simply not the case and people don't understand how software development works. Now we have more and more developers confirming what anyone with any work experience in the field (or anyone with any common sense to actually think about how things work) should already know.

I really, really hate replies like these to these kind of things.
"See, you just don't understand business. Blah blah blah."
No. I understand fine. LOTS of people understand the reasoning for lots of things. That doesn't make it right.

I don't understand why you don't understand that. You constantly rant this same tired spiel off in every thing relating negatively to DLC.

"it's not even worth attempting."

'nuff said

If it adds value to a game that you already feel is 'complete', then go for it. Rock Band/Guitar Hero is a great example. I have a Wii, and I'm already getting close to the point where i've spent as much money on songs as I would have if I would have bought the game sans instruments. And I don't care. The dlc is fun and replayable. But charging for small fiddly addins that seem like there's no reason it should have not been in the game in the first place, or having to buy sections of a game at a time which cost more than if was a full boxed game (episodic).

No kidding. I was really excited for the Penny Arcade game, but it costs way too much. Also, Episode One is $20 while Episode Two is $15. Why hasn't Episode One gone down in price? Why aren't these both bundled together for $20-25?

Correction: there's two episodes ("deleted scenes") available.

Maybe the negative stigma is WORTH it sometimes.

You know, perhaps we DON'T want to be charged $5-10 for tiny add-ons. Perhaps the ability to dress up lady characters in bikinis just doesn't sell for $10.

Yes, there is good DLC. But they're what we would usually call "expansions" on the PC. Oblivion had Shivering Isles, which was awesome. I also got Knights of the Nine, which was a worthy addition.

I've also bought The Pitt for Fallout 3, a pitt-ifully(sorry) short bit of nothing, when I could have bought The Maw for that price.

I have to agree with these guys.. Despite the fact we knew from the begining that these were completely new levels that were only created AFTER the game was released, people looked at the name and instantly assumed it was content that had just been cut out of the game.

Perhaps it was a bad naming choice on their part, and DLC can sometimes be a complete rip off.. See Street Fighter IV's costume packs, but a lot of the time it is new content that's been developed after the initial release to extend replayability, and that's definitely a good thing.

People seem too eager to jump on the "omg, it should have already been in the game!" bandwagon.

I had no problems with their DLC plus I liked the price of it. Now if it would have came out the same day as the game I would think differently. It just turns me off of buying a game if like a week after its released tons of DLC is released and the prices are around 400 points. I only rented RE5 and SF4 for those reasons.

why is it when anyone talks DLC they always blame microsoft.does anyone have a ps3?they have the same type of ridiculous DLC on it.extra characters (costumes) for golf a dollar.extra characters for pain a dollar each(which do nothing more then look different)extra single level 4 dollars.if a developer spends time working on DLC after the game is released then they should be compensated.as for ea most of the DLC that was released said right in the description that it CAN be unlocked by playing the game, so if you bought it you know what you are getting in to.i think that the entitlement that we should get free stuff just because we bought there game is dumb.everyone here buys new and most of us buy used and the devs get nothing for that.if buying a little DLC is going to help a good developer stay in business then bring it on, the more the better.stupid DLC is not console specific.

Do you seriously expect anyone to read that spurt of garbage?

Punctuation.... is it really that hard of a concept to grasp?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/7/7/the-bad-boys-of-punctuation/

Well, I actually love The Maw. I got both stage packs and I'm eagerly awaiting for the third one. The download's so cheap that those "Deleted scene - I'm being ripped off" thoughts never even crossed my mind... just took the stages' names as sort of a "Director's cut" bonus. Dunno about other games, but I think Maw DLC and the game itself are pretty cheap overall...

The whole argument about DLC being an unlock key or not is moot: it's quite easy for a dev/publisher to just strip content from a completed game, so that your download is physically bigger and you feel less ripped off.
I think that most of the DLC we see nowadays should be free, as in "Thanks for buying our game *and* thanks for not selling it (the used games market being the current nemesis of the industry, and rightly so in some ways). DLC like The Lost And Damned, it makes sense to sell it (for a reasonable price). Also, Having someone pushing *against* free DLC is pure madness, but then Microsoft notoriously sucks (I do own a 360).
Finally, as always, the blame is shared by those who sell and those who buy, accepting to be ripped off.

People just like to complain. Bottom line is, Maw is a marvelous game that is well worth the price of the core game and of the DLC. In fact, can we have more deleted scenes (although the name is kind of stupid)?

I don't know why people are so any DLC.

I can understand if it skins but if it adds game play what is the issue?

Myself i loved the Maw and its DLC.

Re: "Reward me with free DLC and I will buy the next game"

What if the DLC *is* the next game?
DLC takes money and effort to develop. There are a few options here:
1) Ship a game for $10 when done. Keep working on more levels. Sell those levels for $5.
2) Develop the game for much longer. Finally ship a game with more levels for $15.
3) Develop the game for much longer. Ship a game for $15 without some levels. Quickly release those levels as DLC.

The same amount of levels in each case, and the same amount of cost in each case -- except in case 1, you, the customer, get to play the game sooner, and get to decide whether to purchase the DLC or not.

Also, for the developer, option 1 can often be less risk. And when you're 3 people in a crummy leased office, and your rent payment and food check depends on whether you get sales or not, reducing risk sounds really good!

Re: "the used games market being the current nemesis of the industry"

That's not at all a given. It has been shown (say, with used cars) that the existence of a secondary market actually drives up prices for the original sale, because people who couldn't afford to buy and throw away at the higher price, can afford to buy at the higher price and re-sell at a lower price.

According to economic theory, if the secondary market went away, prices of new games would have to be lowered significantly, or the total volume of sales of new games would go down (!) That's the power of a secondary market.

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The Maw dev on the 'negative stigma' of DLC

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