Killzone developer says PS3 dev easier than PS2

by Andrew Yoon on Apr 3rd 2009 4:11PM

You've heard it time and time again: the PS3 is not easy to develop for. However, the folks behind Sony's flagship FPS, Killzone 2, will disagree. Guerilla Games' Managing Director Hermen Hulst spoke to GameDaily about the working as a PlayStation-exclusive developer. "Like us, if you are native to PlayStation, our tech director doesn't say it's particularly difficult. It's specific, but it's not difficult like PS2 was difficult – PS2 was a difficult [machine] to crack, but PS3 didn't take us a long time to get up and running." Hulst does admit that multiplatform developers may have more trouble working with Sony's console "because it is very different" from other consoles.

Development Director Arjan Brussee not only sees PS3 as an easier system to develop for, but also believes Sony's proprietary architecture can be easier to deal with than the Xbox 360. "I actually think PS3 is a simpler architecture than some of the other consoles; you just have to have a certain mindset on how to address it. I think the Cell-based processor with the SPUs and the super high speed DSPs that you can throw all your calculation tasks at gives us a model that's way easier to program for, even for junior programmers, than the general purpose multi-core type of architecture, which the PC and Xbox 360 have." Brussee notes that offloading certain processes to the SPUs allows programmers to take full advantage of Cell's processing power.

The remarkable visuals of Killzone 2 certainly gives credence to their claims. Perhaps Guerilla should follow Insomniac's steps and allow the development community to learn some of their PS3 programming tricks.

Source

Tags: guerilla-games, killzone, killzone-2, programming, ps3, spu

Reader Comments (140)

"5 years is going to cost a huge amount of money"

Not necessarily. It really depends on how many people were working on it. For all we know, they had a handfull of people working on design documents and tech tests. Most likely everybody else was working on Liberation.

"That alone points to how incredibly difficult it was to get this game working well. "

As I mentioned in a previous post, Half Life 2 took 5 years...does that mean that Valve had trouble getting the game to work well on the PC? Or does it just mean that they had the luxury to take the time they needed with it in order to make it right.

"It's unlikely they will make much profit from this game."
Dunno, it's at 1.3 million sold so far. Heard that it cost anywhere from 30-60 million to make.

@Kodros

Convincing argument, Half Life 2 took five years to develop, therefore, programming on the PC is the same difficulty as the PS3? Really? That's a great hypothesis.

Your implying 'If a = b and c= b, than a=c". Well, the first step to proof your proof is to prove a=b. Where's our source article saying Half Life 2 took five years to develop? I'm guessing your referring to the source article from Wikipedia from Gamespot.com which you might not have ever read.

If you read the article, they talk about how they wanted to not just produce a sequal but to revolutionize the industry and spent the first year of development time determing how they wanted the game to function. Voice-support? buddy-system? etc etc. So they really only spent 4 year in development. 2.5 years of worth was creating the game engine and only 1.5 years was actually spent making the game.

The difference being Valve and other developers have since used this engine to create many games from Counter Strike Source to Left for Dead to Team Fortress 2 with all realtively short development cycles.

I'm curious to see if now that Killzone 2's team has their engine made, if they too with the 'simplicity' of the ps3's programming will have its next game out within a single month? That being the time between Half Life 2's release and Counter Strike Source release to Valve's Cyber Premium cafe program who were the first to own it.

@ Wes

That's asinine, what you describe as "determing how they wanted the game to function" is called pre-production and is part of development time, time people are including here for Killzone 2.

As for engine development, most games do that, Guerrilla had help but still developed the graphics engine themselves. If you look at Uncharted, they created every bit of that game from scratch in three years including preproduction.

As for other devs using Source to create games "with all realtively short development cycles" is bogus, Team Fortress 2, for instance, primary development started in 1999 but final design really started in 2004. It released in 2007, 3 years later, so that game too at least 3 years and is hardly a short dev cycle. Vampire The Masquerade was 3 years as well, as did Dark Messiah of Might & Magic. Hardly short dev cycles and Source itself is notorious for it's bad antiquated SDK and it's rigid C++ requirements.

If I was to guess, work Guerrilla did on Killzone 2 will be incorporated into the PS3 SDK and will likely see light in upcoming games (if not already within Little Big Planet).

"spent the first year of development time determing how they wanted the game to function."

So, how is spending the "first year of development time" not being calculated into the total development time?

Way to spin "The PS2 was an utter pig to program for too"

Development takes time and time costs money.

What they said here also makes sense - I remember reading that PS2 was more like assembly language programming. Also, can agree with them that if you approach PS3 coding with a PC/360 mindset, you will struggle, but PS3 coding may be simpler in ways. The processor is such a brilliantly elegant system (though I cant claim to undertstand it fully)

I must say I really like all the Sony developers - they are honest, make great games, collaborate well and its a joy to hear them speak - for a non-tech, Guerilla, Insomniac and Naughty dog offer great insights into what goes into making a game.
I dont know if anyone read it, there was an article where Guerilla responded to comments about the weak party system - and they were totally open about it, no b***s***t, admitted that it was a problem and that they were looking to improve things.

"the general purpose multi-core type of architecture, which the PC and Xbox 360 have" This says it all. The problem with the PS3 is that it breaks with tradition, making it have a longer learning cure. The whole issue is really mute, cause all systems have their own strengths and weaknesses.
That being said I'm not sure the 7 SPE design was the way to go as the types of task you can throw at it are more limited. As I understand it having just one PPE means you have to do a lot of work to ensure that you are not waiting for a thread to finish.

People who say they are lying simply have rose-tinted glasses when looking back on the PS2. Kojima and other devs stated they hated programming for the machine. So its easily plausible for the ps3 is be easier to code for compared to the ps2.

Most people are talking about: Development Director Arjan Brussee not only sees PS3 as an easier system to develop for, but also believes Sony's proprietary architecture can be easier to deal with than the Xbox 360. "I actually think PS3 is a simpler architecture than some of the other consoles; you just have to have a certain mindset on how to address it. I think the Cell-based processor with the SPUs and the super high speed DSPs that you can throw all your calculation tasks at gives us a model that's way easier to program for, even for junior programmers, than the general purpose multi-core type of architecture, which the PC and Xbox 360 have."

This may very well be true. All this "PS3 is harder to program for" flew around back in 2007. Around the same time as the "Wii is a fad" and "Fuck you M$ and your damn RROD" flew around. All of which seems to have either been disproven or forgotten

Anyhoo, the PS2 was supposed to be pretty tough to develop for in the beginning, especially when set against the Dreamcast, but people got over it because you pretty much had to be intimately familiar with the PS2 if you were a 3rd party console dev and you wanted to be relevant.

The system's eating comments again...

Anyway, Developers got used to the PS2 architecture, despite the early complaints of it being difficult when set against Dreamcast. You had to get used to PS2, or face irrelevancy. PS3 is nowhere near that kind of pull, so some developers who don't need to rely on it find it a harder environment to work in initially (much like the PS2 again)

To objectively judge whether the platform is "harder" to work with is thus difficult in itself.

Thats actually completely false. The PS2 wasn't the dominant market leader in its first two years on when developers were making the same claims. In fact, I think the PS3 has greater sales in the same time frame, though, the industry was much smaller.

It's really the same for all the consoles. I have heard developers complain about developing for The Wii because users expect nice gestural controls but they haven't been given the tools (Motion+) to make it accurate.

The PS3 install base is big enough that developers can't simply ignore it. Now, there will be some exceptions and outspoken critics (Valve) but it is that way for all three platforms.

"Now, there will be some exceptions and outspoken critics (Valve) but it is that way for all three platforms. "

Yeah and I doubt Valve's attitude will ever change. Not only are they a one-trick pony shop, but they risk falling way behind other AAA developers because of their stubborn refusal to learn.

The future is multicore processing whether Gabe likes it or not. The PC world just expects Nvidia and ATi to release crazier cards every year so they never have to really try to optimize code and get really clever to squeeze the most out of their games. The shining example of this mentality is Crysis, which looks incredible on 5% of gaming computers.

This same mentality is creeping into console gaming because so many previously PC-only devs are making console games now. They brought their release-now-patch-later mentality along with them and it's hurting console gaming as a result. The Pitt DLC says hi.

This is not so surprising. After all many developers have already gotten the hang of the PS3. It's only some others that are still complaining about how hard it is. Naughty Dog, Guerrilla Game, Insomniac and Epic among others have gotten some good games out on the PS3. Maybe those others should take some pointers from them.

@ Mr. Guuerilla dev

Ok, you made a good game. (/w shit controls)

NOW STOP LYING, IT'S NOT IMPRESSIVE.

His point, just like other commenters have stated, is nonsensical. these guys have made...umm ONE ps3 game. all their manpower and focus has been on one title, for YEARS, and now it's easier? If these guys weren't in Sony's cradle, do you think the visuals would be like that?

If it was so easy they would have showed real footage instead of cgi on the dual hdmi/120fps ps3 super console years ago

- I don't believe you,you need more people.

You need to read the article again so that you actually understand what is being said.

Besides, you have backwards logic. Since they have made only 1 PS3 game it stands to reason that development should have been HARDER if the platform is such a bitch to work on. What they are saying is that if you are developing with this architecture in mind it is no harder than any other console. However, you have to think of things differently because it's a different setup.

Most PS360 games have a typical development cycle of 2-3 years and KZ 2 was no different. That CG render at E3 wasn't made by GG because they were still finishing up work on Liberation for the PSP.

Think with your head instead of your heart next time.

Sony helped financially and with technical issues / bugs etc, but Guerilla did all the work.

Sony doesn't make the games, they make the console and help developers to get the best out of it, so does Micro.

Your point makes no sense.

what?

um i think your logic is backwards bud. the amount of 'help' these guys had over the last couple of years is the main reason why the game came technically came out so well.

it actually doesn't matter what system he's talking about- whats native to him/anyone will ultimately make the effort 'easier', especially if you have nor "real" experience on the other platform.

I stand behind my opinion that if sony didn't dedicate themselves to their effort, it would have been the same game, just a lot less pretty.

and liberation for the psp took up all thier time when they were showing cg of their next big thing?

your approach reminds me of the bridge to nowhere.

Ok, hold on. Are you actually bitching because Sony helped out a Dev studio? Also, Sony doesn't have some super secret magical code that makes games incredible. It's still down to the devs to figure this stuff out.

"and liberation for the psp took up all thier time when they were showing cg of their next big thing?"

Umm, all you did was repeat what he said and put a question mark at the end of it.

Sony dedicates itself to any developer working exclusivly, so does Microsoft, so where is this argument going?

You almost make it sound as if Sony made Killzone 2 O.o

Sony: Thanks.

Guerilla: No problem.

Sony: We've been losing face since everyone is saying how hard it is to develop on the PS3.

Guerilla: Hey, I'm just doing what you asked me to do. Now where's my crystal skull bi...

Sony: Uhh...50 Cent stole it from us...

ha ha!, they would say that when there game took that long to come out, lmao omg what bullshit does anybody remember when that original killzone 2 prerenderd vid came out cause i having a hard time remembering due to the fact that that was so fuckin long ago!

2006, its 2009, by 'that long' I'm assuming you mean in terms of quality instead of 'quantity'

Besides, I don't think anyones complaining, the length of time certainly was worth it, its the most beautiful thing I've played (besides Crysis and Gears), cosidering the PS2 Killzone was Meh, this one really pushes the bar.

fool! it was 2005!

Point made, but I think you're forgetting the fact that there are games announced at the same time as Killzone 2 that havent seen the light of day yet.

Tekken...FF13, both of which are made by companies with far more gaming development experience then Guerilla, oh, and MGS only JUST released last year :)

And heavy rain, those devs were making games back then too.

Then again, length of time usually spits out some damn great games, so again, whos complaining :)

ssdd.

What gamer in their right mind wants to halt the console arms race by having consoles designed to be programmed similarly enough as to be generic win-pcboxes?

WHAT GAMER?

"cutting edge, smutting edge, win-pcbox is just fine."

or

"I'm a skilled graphite artist but I don't know wtf to do with these pens."

Easier if you take FOUR YEARS TO MAKE ONE GAME. There have been two Gears of Wars games announced and released AFTER Killzone 2 was announced.

Wait, Gears was made by whom?

I could have sworn it was 'Epic', a company known for successful FPS titles who have had years of experience on PC and have only moved onto 360, a minor difference considering it shares the same coding as PC gaming so only had to set up its engine and boom it was ready to go, with the help of Microsoft themselves of course both in development and finances. Oh, not to mention the fact that Epic have worked with nearly every recent and current gaming platform available :)

Correct me if I'm wrong.....in fact, don't correct me, I'm not wrong.

The only problems we hear of are multiplatform developers on the PS3. We don't hear anything from anyone who designs their game for the ground up for the PS3. So, in that respect GG is exactly correct. Developing an exclusive game for the PS3 is no harder than the 360.

"Easier if you take FOUR YEARS TO MAKE ONE GAME. There have been two Gears of Wars games announced and released AFTER Killzone 2 was announced."

Ok, but they both use the same engine (UE3) which wasn't created by the GoW2 team. So, if you really want to be a prick about it, you have to add in the time that the separate engine team spent building UE3.

Most telling thing for me is that the KZ2 install takes up a whopping 16MB with almost ZERO start up time and very reasonable map load times.

Really puts to shame all the dev companies that justify their ridiculous 4GB installs due to Blu-Ray load speed.

All part of the four year development that others are claiming was too long, or maybe they would prefer shorter development time and get another Haze :D

Uh, check the game data file size for Killzone2. During those level loads (in multiplayer at least) you'll see the hard drive going crazy.

Single player is impressive though, they manage to stream 2GB pieces from the BR drive without anyone noticing very often.

just to put some of this "game took so much longer to develop" nonsense on hold, I'll dig through a few Gamedeveloper postmortem's for dev time (direct quotes):

Far Cry 2 - 43 months
Golden Axe: Beast Rider - about 4 years
Stranglehold - 34 months
Resistance: Fall of Man - over 2 years
Uncharted - 1 year preproduction 2 years full production
Ratchet and Clank Future - 23 months: 11 months preproduction, 12 months production
COD 4 - 2 years
Bioshock - 3 years
Crackdown - 4 years
Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam - 18 months
Prey - 5 years 2 months (from new concept to ship)
Elebits - 13 months
Rock Band - 2 years

Anyway, we don't know when development started (or ended really, wasn't it last fall they said the game was done but not being released until 2009?), but 4 years is hardly absurd.

Half Life 2 - 5 years

Fun magazine to browse through, even if I'm not in the industry. Poor Golden Axe...it's sad that so much time was thrown at it but it ended up being a poor product.

Yeah, this is why this PS3 launch title was 2 years late!

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Killzone developer says PS3 dev easier than PS2

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Posted: Apr 4th 2009 4:04AM Kodros said

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