Greg Costikyan slams Epic for 'exploitative' work hours

Seems fine to me.. it's just that damned host shotgun.. where I'll blast someone 5 times, lucky if they go down, but the host team will glance the non-host into pulp..

I'd prefer not to bump up to the top here, but I feel a couple things should be noted:

- These 60-hour-plus work weeks are generally used on a "crunch time" schedule that is preferred by many executives in the game industry. It might not sound that bad if you only enter crunch time every once in awhile, but that's not the case in many instances these days. Deadlines are getting tighter and developers are taking on more and more projects all the time. You may finish a 3-month-long crunch time of 60+ hours per week only to get transferred to another team that just entered into its crunch time. There are studies that show that this style of crunch time operations actually leads to slower and lower quality development due to the exponential rise in errors. This style of operation also leads to a much higher rate of burnout among employees. Of course, the game industry is never short of optimistic young developers fresh out of college, so many executives don't seem to care about the high turnover rate. However, this is most definitely not good for the industry as a whole.

- The vast majority of the time, the employees are not getting compensated for the time worked past 40 hours a week. Most developers are salaried employees who are not eligible for overtime. Generally, a token compensation of a week's vacation or something similar is given, but that's hardly equal to the hundreds of working hours that one isn't compensated for. This is actually exactly what got EA sued a few years back by its former employees. EA was found to be mis-categorizing its employees as salaried and ended up having to pay a lot of back compensation because of this.

- Finally, the "well they get to make games they should shut up!" argument is just silly. No matter how cool and rewarding game development can be, it's still a job. Taking away huge portions of your social and family life for months on end is bad no matter if you're working in a coal mine or working behind a computer.

Why? If someone wants to work that long, why shouldn't they be able to?

And, to Epic employees: If you don't like the fact that your employer wants you to work 60+ hours a week, then don't work there. Obviously, some people must like that culture - otherwise, no one would work there.

Yes, because it's so realistic to just quit and simply pick up another job in this economy

You dont own your job.

@Calvin
So, just because the economy is bad gives the government permission to mettle with private business?

@ducttape

The government meddles with private business all the time. They decide that private businesses can't hire 11 year olds, can't pay workers 50 cents an hour and can't tell someone they can't work there because they're a woman. How is this any different?

@azuravian
It's no different - and, it's not like I said I supported those things...

I'll admit, I can see the point about hiring 11 year olds, because under the law, they don't have any rights as adults (although, I would still argue that those decisions should be left up to the parents)

However, in the case of minimum wage and equal hiring policies, no, the government has no right to force a business to do any of that. If I disagree with the amount a business pays its employees or disagree with their hiring policies, I won't give my money to that company. If the majority of people feel that way, too, then the company won't stay in business - instead, those businesses that pay a fair wage, etc., will. The free market has just accomplished the exact same thing the government has, but without wasting tax payers money.

@ducttape
The government, how I've grown up to percieve, are in place to represent the majority of the population. Now say that population wants atleast £5 an hour to live, then the government have to force the businesses to pay £5 an hour.

If you're really locking horns with the concept of workers having rights, move to a third world country. You'll have a great time exploiting 11 year olds in sweat shops and working people to death so they can earn 20p a day.

Its about ethics and morality when enforcing equal rights and minimum wage laws douche bag.

Minimum wage isn't determined by some sort of "living wage", it is an arbitrarily set number so a group of politicians who have been far removed from the real world can make themselves feel better. They don't care that minimum wage creates unemployment, they think it's better to be out of a job than to "suffer the indignity" of actually accepting, voluntarily I might add, wages below a specified point created, again, arbitrarily by guys in fine hats sitting in ivory halls. This goes the same with working conditions, working hours, or any other rule or regulation that is slapped upon us by individuals that are mostly clueless on how things work beyond "promise sky, get elected".

Unregulated markets don't allow poor working conditions or wages to exist for very long. Without the protective hand of a government regulating competition into the ground or utilizing its force to do nothing short of protecting private property rights, you'll find that substandard wages are going to be rare in an unregulated marketplace much like unemployment pretty much won't exist. Businesses that aren't being fleeced of taxes, that trade with customers aren't being fleeced of income have enough resources to enter into agreements with sufficient labor to satisfy consumer needs. This goes with stifling regulatory laws.

If an individual believes that engaging in labor for 60 hours in a week is superior to the 20 leisure hours that are the alternative, it is no place for our elected dictators to decide otherwise. Even if 50%+1 decides they don't like working 60 hours a week, they still don't have the right to dictate to the 50%-1 who may chose to do so. If you dislike working 60 hour weeks, find another job. If we weren't regulated to the hilt, that wouldn't exactly be a problem because, frankly, most people don't like working long hours and businesses would never be able to keep quality workers by running sweat shops. Sweat shops only exist in countries where competition is pretty much blocked at every turn by, you guessed it, guys with guns and taxes called Government.

Removing all the various barriers that businesses and every one of us as individuals have to constantly screw around with and pay for would make it very easy to remove the ridiculous work week legislation rules and pay rules. No one will trade labor voluntarily for less than what it takes to live. This phenomenon can only exist where minimum wage and/or workweek rules are in force. If an employer and prospective employee agree on $4.50 an hour, but the minimum wage laws say that $7 is required, you've pretty much just guaranteed that guy unemployment. Great job, you've put someone out of work because you allow elected officials to decide what a living wage is and couldn't objectively define it, or reasonably keep up with the ups AND downs of a labor market, so they just hard line it at a point that makes them feel good and punishes the rest of society with putative taxes to cover unemployment benefits that, frankly, tend to be less than what the company would have offered up voluntarily anyway.

Bad wages don't exist long, other companies will take those employees if the wages are poor. You simply cannot objectively tell me what a good wage is, nor can some guy whose only qualification is convincing you, the average moron, that he'd make a great boss over your life.

@ LaughingTarget,

FEMA called and your re-education camp room is ready for you.

ITT: We make everyone who thinks Reagan's "Government is The Problem, so we should just let big business run wild, like letting pedophiles out of prison" ideas are right, look like morons! :)

And WHY do you think there have been books like Grapes Of Wrath, The Jungle, Brave New World? Because people liberal dissidents? Or is it because they've probably experienced something similar firsthand.

And you all KNOW that it was unregulated big business (unregulated even more by the Bush Administration. when they were still alive) that got us into this recession.
And don't forget the French Revolution, where only the rich/nobles had power, angering the poor into starting the Reign of Terror (call the French cowards, I dare you, your prejudice comes from their government surrendering to Hitler during WWII to prevent casualties, THEN they had an underground resistance).

Just about anyone who runs their own small business deals with those hours and they're not forced by anyone. What is excessive is a subjective matter. Your excessive is just right for another person. There's plenty of time in the day to get other things done on a 10 hour work week. I may not work 60 hours a week, but I do have a 4/10 schedule (4 days a week at 10 hours a day). It isn't that bad and I still have enough time to hit the bank on workdays.

You state that you have more then enough time to do what is needed yet your on a 4 day work week. You can't really compare your free time with them regardless if its a workday or not.

Also although granted, they can't force you to work those hours, but try complaigning that to your boss. Don't expect to stay on payroll for long if they got another starving programmer willing to work those hours applying for a position.
Not like I'm trying to go with what they are saying that 60 hours a week is unacceptable. But I mean cmon, we put 40-50 hours, these guys can be pushing over 60+. They better be offering at least 90k+ a year easy for some of the work epic has put out.

Don't bother arguing with LaughingTarget, DannyF. LT is a huge Libertarian/Ron Paul supporter, whose ideology is considered irrelevant by the human race. He's basically Andrew Ryan from Bioshock. "A man chooses, a slave obeys!" *golf club to the head*

Crazy?

Aren't there unions to prevent that kind of jank? I wouldn't know. I'm a developer that sits behind a computer and works 40 hour work weeks.

i thank you strongly for your contribution.

It's part of the culture of most of corporate America. Companies are highly competitive and need to be to survive. If you don't put in 60 hour work week (at least during crunch time), some other company will and they will eat your lunch. Then you'll be out of a job and will have all of the free time in the world.

There are plenty of careers that don't require this level of competitiveness. They don't pay very well, either.

Your the reason why companies can act like that, pat yourself on the back. If you had the skills you wouldn't need to work 60 hour weeks, you could get it done in 40.

I used to work at a developer in JAPAN. 60 hour work weeks would have been a luxury. There were 80 hour weeks and sleeping at the office was not uncommon because 2 hour commutes are considered "normal." It was horrid, and much like Shag, I have zero desire to get back into that.

You know, I'm reminded of this, a lil' bit:
'It's the same in the business world. Everyone knows by now all businessmen are completely full of shit; the worst kind of lowlife, criminal cocksuckers you can expect to meet. And the proof is, they don't even trust each other!
When a businessman sits down to negotiate with another businessman, the first thing he does is assume the other guy is a complete lying prick who's trying to fuck him out of his money. So he does everything he can do to fuck the other guy a little bit faster and a little bit harder. And he does it with a big smile on his face. That big, bullshit businessman's smile.
And if you're a customer, that's when they give you the really big smile! The customer always gets that really big smile as the businessman carefully positions himself directly behind the customer, unzips his pants, and proceeds to "service" the account.
"I'm servicing this account... [pelvic thrust] "This customer [thrust] "needs [thrust!] "service!" [thrust thrust thrust!]
Now you know what they mean when they say, "We specialize in customer service." Whoever first said, "Let the buyer beware" was probably bleeding from the asshole. But that's business. That's business, and business is okay.'
- George Carlin, RIP

"how much development is REALLY going on these days when everyone uses one engine and the same tree graphics for every game."

I think that might be the least-informed opinion I've ever heard.

Also:

Row row, fight the power.