'Law of the Game' lawyer explores GameStop used vs. new controversy
Joystiq LGJ columnist Mark Methenitis has written a piece analyzing the claims posited earlier this week by Kotaku surrounding the legality of GameStop's employee "checkout policy" and found that, in his professional opinion, the illegality of this practice may be in question for a variety of reasons. The main question at hand: Is GameStop deceiving customers who purchase employee-played (read: "used") games as new? His answer: Much like most legal matters, it really depends.
Depends on what, you ask? For one, Methenitis says games sold at GameStop as new where, "the disc, packaging, or other materials are damaged in any way, or if one-time use download codes are used" could be "a deceptive act." The problem with minutiae such as this, he says, is that damages are so small (monetarily speaking) that a lawsuit would be ineffective in court. Furthermore, he says that laws put in place to protect consumers from used vs. new item fraud are often based on products that degrade rather than "nebulous" products like DVD discs and, to a greater extent, cartridge-based games (such as Nintendo DS titles).
With legal ambiguities surrounding this issue, we'd simply suggest buying used titles from your friendly, online click-and-order retailer in the meantime, rather than contributing to billions of dollars in used game sales at your own and other gamers' expense.
Depends on what, you ask? For one, Methenitis says games sold at GameStop as new where, "the disc, packaging, or other materials are damaged in any way, or if one-time use download codes are used" could be "a deceptive act." The problem with minutiae such as this, he says, is that damages are so small (monetarily speaking) that a lawsuit would be ineffective in court. Furthermore, he says that laws put in place to protect consumers from used vs. new item fraud are often based on products that degrade rather than "nebulous" products like DVD discs and, to a greater extent, cartridge-based games (such as Nintendo DS titles).
With legal ambiguities surrounding this issue, we'd simply suggest buying used titles from your friendly, online click-and-order retailer in the meantime, rather than contributing to billions of dollars in used game sales at your own and other gamers' expense.












Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
MystileArmor @ Apr 11th 2009 7:41PM
That's why always ask for a sealed copy at my Gamestop when I pick up a new game.
I don't bother with used games anymore at all, because of all the issues I've had with it. You're a good 3/4th into a game and all of a sudden you can't play any further cause a little scratch on the disc.
I'll just play what games I have till I can afford a new game.
Tiptup300 @ Apr 12th 2009 12:38AM
Wait, so if you always get sealed games, you don't have to worry. I've never actually got a game that wasn't sealed in plastic and with the MS seal too. So I've never been defrauded?
MystileArmor @ Apr 12th 2009 1:37PM
Yeah, that's pretty much how it is. Gamestop opens their new copies and puts the empty cases on the shelf... but atleast at my Gamestop, they'll give you the sealed copy's first, untill the only copy left in the store is the opened one.
Noshino @ Apr 11th 2009 7:58PM
"Furthermore, he says that laws put in place to protect consumers from used vs. new item fraud are often based on products that degrade rather than "nebulous" products like DVD discs and, to a greater extent, cartridge-based games (such as Nintendo DS titles). "
If Im not wrong, don't DVDs actually degrade?...
Not only that, but in the case of used-by-employee games for PS2 and 360 (more so for the PS2), there are chances of the discs actually scratching, the damage can range from minimal to very pronounced.
Flit @ Apr 11th 2009 8:23PM
Well yeah, but then from the moment of printing, all disc based media should start decreasing in value, due to degradation. However, since most printed from a glass master/gold disc has a shelf life of 10-20 years, the decrease in value on such an item isn't worth evaluating. Also, the disc degrades even if the game is sealed. Opening it an playing it has very very minimal effects.
Here's a question for anyone upset by this practice, if EA sold "open but unplayed" copies to gamestop for $25, and gamestop then sold the game for $30, would you buy it?
helghast102 @ Apr 11th 2009 8:06PM
check out this series regarding GameStop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5_DgLCu6fk&feature=channel_page
he has very good points, and it entertaining! :D
Spartanllss @ Apr 11th 2009 8:11PM
well the thing is, Gamestop will try to sell you an OPENED copy and bill it as new. If the game is in anyway open then it isn't new. I don't understand why they think they can push this crap on us. I utterly refuse to buy a game thats been open and put into one of little sleeves and pay full price for it. You Woudn't do it for ANY other product it'd be marked down so i don't see why you have to do it for a game.
Kino @ Apr 11th 2009 11:21PM
So then you're saying I should go to a carlot and demand every car there be sold at a used price because someone may have test driven it or because it was driven out of the manufacturing plant?
superklye @ Apr 12th 2009 12:09AM
@Kino
Cars and disc-based media aren't quite the same.
Anticrawl @ Apr 12th 2009 2:31AM
That my friend is a moronic comparison. You can negotiate the price of a "new" car and only a fool buys one at sticker price. And not only that but there is a lemon law of sorts to protect consumers from faulty cars and other things to protect the consumer. In the video game industry once your money has left your hand you are FUCKED if something happens. No one is at fault but you regardless of the situation unless the brick and morter store has some progressive satisfaction policies in order.
Draco @ Apr 12th 2009 11:40AM
Kino
if the "new" car was test driven I would definitely ask for some money back, test drives are hard on a car.
crackp1pe @ Apr 12th 2009 5:48PM
i find it humorous when people try to trash someone for arguing that opened games are not the same as new, sealed copies. They aren't, they are less valuable. All you have to do is look at Gamestop's own return policy.
http://www.gamestop.com/gs/help/Store%20Return%20Policy.pdf
According to their policy, a game sold as "opened new" cannot be returned for a refund, only exchanged. A "sealed new" copy can be returned for a full refund.
So to the people defending Gamestop's practice here, answer this question for me. If, as Gamestop supporters always say, an "opened new" copy is "just as good" as a "sealed new" copy, then why can't you return it for a full refund? Given that you can't, do you honestly think it's fair to charge them the same price as a new sealed copy? Of course it isn't. Not only is an opened copy of a game far less valuable in the real world (see ebay for copious proof), but they are even less valuable to Gamestop-- they can't even be returned for a full refund.
The fact is, whether or not they have been played an opened copy of a game is less valuable than a sealed one, sometimes significantly less valuable. I'm fine with Gamestop selling opened copies, but selling them as New when they aren't and at the same price is disingenuous at best.
sony boy @ Apr 11th 2009 8:13PM
well, what if your playing a 360 game and it scratches, hmmm?
MystileArmor @ Apr 12th 2009 1:39PM
So PS3 games don't scratch?
Hedgeson @ Apr 12th 2009 3:11PM
PS3 discs are extremely resistant. They need to be since the data layer is very close to the surface, because of the light wavelength used in blu ray.
Furthermore, I've never heard of a PS3 scratching a disc by itself.
Markez @ Apr 11th 2009 8:15PM
My girlfriend wanted to go buy Alias for the xbox so we went to the GameStop just down the street, cost her 4 beans.
Meanwhile, I figured I might as well pick something up since we were there. I've been wanting to pick up both Rhythm Heaven and Henry Hatsworth. Both were new, however there were sealed copies of RH behind the counter. The copy of Henry Hatsworth they had as 'new' they didn't even have the effing original box for. Just one of those bullshit inserts with the stupid cartoon art on it.
Guess which one I got?
(unrelated, anyone actually own Deadly Creatures?)
zuburi @ Apr 12th 2009 1:30AM
(I actually own Deadly Creatures)
Markez @ Apr 12th 2009 2:07AM
Nice! What's your verdict on it? Looks intriguing and all and I saw it there today and was wondering about it. Think it'll be a bit before I buy another Wii or 360 game and was wondering about picking that one up.
zuburi @ Apr 12th 2009 3:20PM
Late reply! Sorry!
It is okay. To be honest, the actual gameplay is average at best - there is too much waggle in it for me, and fighting is kind of annoying. General consensus is that the story is what sells it - and stacked up against other videogame narratives, it is pretty good.
I would not pay retail for it, but it's something I think you should experience. It's the kind of game you'll look back on in a few years and the memory will most likely be better than the actual experience. Kind of like Alone in the Dark.
Harrison @ Apr 11th 2009 8:15PM
I've worked at EB Games in Canada for almost three years, and let me tell you we're as legitimate in our practices as any other retail store dealing with software or disc media. The problem arises in GameStop's poor (terrible) treatment of its employees.
Methenitis calls our packaging errors "deceptive," but from the perspective of a disgruntled employee, it's anything but. Do you think $9.05[cdn]/hour is enough to persuade my undying support for the company's profits? I really doubt it. The last thing I EVER consider is cheating a customer out of money, or frustrating him/her with a defective product. What's really important is to realize that GameStop/EB Games is a business like any other in North America; concerned not with service, but with money, money, money. SO. Stop blaming the chump behind the counter, and bitch about your taxes or something. We're sick of hearing your complaints...
Olicon @ Apr 11th 2009 8:23PM
I'm not sure how the arguments normally goes, but no one (on this thread) so far has accused the retail clerks of being the ones trying to rip them off yet. What most people are decrying (at least here) is that the company's policy of selling a "used once" copy as new product.
stromm @ Apr 11th 2009 8:33PM
So while you think it's ok for everything for you to be about "money, money, money", you don't think it's ok for EB/GS to feel the same? Talk about being a hypocrite.
Here in OH, it's illegal for a retail item to be sold as new if the package has been opened. Period. Gamestop has been violating this law for a few years. The reason they get away with it is that the localized police don't have the resources to try to enforce and document these "one by one" cases. What needs to happen is that the State AG's need to be made aware of this issue and not just from a few customers, thousands need to report this. Until that happens, EB/GS knows they can get away with this.
As someone else mentioned, ask for an unopened package. If they don't have one, call the cops and report that GS was attempting to sell you open merchandise for full price.
As for people working for a company and trying to use the excuse "I don't get paid enough to deal with crap..." You can't have it both ways. Either you are part of the problem and an active participant in screwing customers, or you are fighting against it. Get some morals and backbones. I can say this because I've been there and I have kept my reputation and quit jobs rather than frak up my reputation only to get laid off later and then have people away from that crap company know I screwed them too.
Chadillac @ Apr 11th 2009 10:23PM
Stromm, you have got to be the biggest idiot in this whole forum
if someone tries to sell you a game with an open case, you're going to call the cops
i'm sure they'll be out there as soon as they can
cheeky @ Apr 11th 2009 11:23PM
lawl, yea...quit your job at a company actually making money in this economy and go find a new job at the many places that aren't hiring. Good luck!
datniceguy @ Apr 12th 2009 9:43AM
I hate it when former employees pull the wage card. @Harrison - Yeah, they don't pay you much. But at the same time, you're the poor sap who took the job.
Of course they're not gonna pay you anything, you're a retail associate for Christ's sake! Not trying to sound condscending, but no one's obligated to make the person behind the counter to care except for him or herself. It's a dog eat dog world in retail, and regardless of the business model, that's what the job at that wage calls for and GS employees for their own sake should care if they want to keep their job.
And @brook, I think that should apply to the whole western world. I think Gamestop employees see this as a moral dilemma, I see it as a lame excuse for not looking at the college or even entrepreneul road. If they feel so passionate about getting theirs, they're definately not gonna get rich working for Gamestop.
boltu222 @ Apr 11th 2009 8:19PM
This is why I used to use GAME and not Gamestation who make an effort to unseal all their games...
My friend started working at Gamestation and they allow any employee to 'rent' (read: take) a game for up to a week. After I heard this I started making a point to use GAME. However my local Gamestation now hold a few sealed copies of their games after I told them the reason I walk in with a GAME bag all the time...
Harrison @ Apr 11th 2009 8:43PM
stromm, i simply said that in north america, companies are concerned primarily with "money, money, money," not myself personally. i just think it's ridiculous to expect a sealed copy of every game you buy. any error is just that, an error. humans make them every day. and the terrible wage doesn't help, as i said. my devotion and passion for the video game industry is the reason i've stayed at eb games, i could care less about how many 7-11's you've quit. maybe you guys in ohio should quit using your credit cards and buying too many games with money you don't have...
Brook @ Apr 11th 2009 8:55PM
maybe you guys in Canada should get an education, so you could get better jobs so you don't have to bitch about your shitty pay just so you can play a few new games. just saying.
Markez @ Apr 11th 2009 9:12PM
"i just think it's ridiculous to expect a sealed copy of every game you buy." If you're talking about new games, then you sir, have gone bananas.
zuburi @ Apr 11th 2009 9:50PM
"my devotion and passion for the video game industry is the reason i've stayed at eb games"
That should be the reason you QUIT eb games. Or have you made it so your pawnshop doesn't make such a massive profit from selling used games anymore? That's the only way I can see you doing anything beneficial for the videogame industry.
MystileArmor @ Apr 11th 2009 10:11PM
I worked for EB Games as well, but my "devotion and passion" for video games didn't keep me there.
My devotion and passion makes me play and buy games, not work for a shitty company.
More money for me = more games for me. That's where my devotion lies as far as video games go.
jrhawk42 @ Apr 11th 2009 8:55PM
Here's how gamestop works.
Part 1: Stores tend to "gut" retail games, and put them in sleeves to detour theft.
Part 2: Used games are put into similar sleeves and kept the same way as new games.
Part 3: Gamestop has a policy that employees can take used games home.
Now these three parts make one huge problem because dumb ass employees are not paying attention to the difference between NEW and USED sleeves. Gamestop doesn't attract the brightest employees and they often get sleeves mixed up, in all sorts of ways. Therefore a person that buys a NEW game can get a USED copy if the clerk isn't paying attention to the sleeve he's picked up. Hell it might not even be that clerks fault, and the dumbass that stocked it used the wrong sleeve. Also several employees take home NEW games not realizing the take home policy only applies to USED copies (and most managers ignore this mistake).
I don't think GS as a whole is being malicious, but they are being ignorant to the problem, and I think it's good that somebody is looking out for consumers (cause they are obviously too stupid to do it themselves).
Last I'd like to mention several retailers let employees take home products as long as they are returned in "new" condition. Most of these stores have shrink wrapping machines, and consumers never know the difference.
Ratatosk @ Apr 11th 2009 9:14PM
. I know how is works and you are 100% correct.
Markez @ Apr 11th 2009 9:17PM
Hate to chime in on the 'dumbass' employees bit, since one of them has been kind enough to put a few comments here, but...
At gamestop earlier, I make some comment to my girlfriend about how they're making a new Boom Blox and the guy behind the counter goes "oh really? Wow, they're making another one? I've never had so much fun knocking blocks down, ha ha ha!" I'd also made a comment about how there was a deal on Peggle & discounted price. He proceeds to explain to my girlfriend who hadn't heard of it, that it was a great PC game, and that is was "like tetris." O__O
Chadillac @ Apr 11th 2009 10:29PM
Used sleeves are yellow and new sleeves are white
you would have to be a complete moron (like most of this forum) to not know the difference between yellow and white
War Machine @ Apr 12th 2009 12:38AM
That is a big problem, and one that shouldn't be happening. There is no need to take a new game out of its box. What they could do instead is put "dummy" boxes in the shelves rather than "gutted" boxes, where the customer can pick it up and trade it for the new "un-gutted" game when purchasing.
Atomicwaist @ Apr 12th 2009 1:16AM
Actually unless policy has changed in the year since I've left GameStop, then it is NOT against check-out policy to "rent" a new game. The only stipulation that my manager and I had was that an employee could not check-out a new release (the period of which we determined to be 4-6 weeks) to give the store ample time to receive the game used. We also made our own rule that if there is only one copy of a title in the store then you can not check it out. And as far as I know it has been corporate policy to not allow the check-out of hand held titles since a little before the DS came out because you can not always erase save data. I NEVER personally checked out new games because I felt like it was decieving the customer, a feeling felt by my store manager as well; if an employee wanted to check out a game, we always handed them a used one.
On the side of gutted games: yeah it's somewhat deceptive, but there was a time when associates could discount the product, but now corporate took out the "Open/Shopworn" discount. At my store, we ALWAYS used a display box if we had the art for it, even if it just had the title logo and few screen shots on the back. If a customer brought the box up and asked more we would proceed to hand them a SEALED box to look at the back. So it is partly corporate's fault for these issues and partly the lazy associate who does not want to look for art, and just guts the game for the floor.
doom saber @ Apr 12th 2009 5:23AM
@chadiliac
What if it is a ds card? Years ago, I bought the first Phoenix Wright game when GS had a surplus of them
Even though they were marked as new, they were not in the case. So when l brough the game to the cashier to buy it, one of the cashiers almost put in a used AA title or the sequel inside the case. Forunately, the other employee seen this and told the guy he took the game from the wrong drawer. I almost ended up with a used copy of a game despite purchasing a new game.
Ironhide @ Apr 12th 2009 11:57AM
Dummy boxes cost money, and companies tend to be notoriously cheap when it comes to spending money on assets that cannot be reused. It's far easier to gut the box and place that out on display than to pay for mass produced dummy sleeves/boxes. That's why Best Buy went from straight out game sleeve inserts in empty boxes to cardboard cards. The game cases were getting cracked and broken, but the cardboard can be recycled, all with minimum cost. While you;d think a company like Best Buy would not cheap out like this, you also have to consider the overall costs involved in thier empty box program. I ended up taking home all of the good condition empty boxes so that I can replace cases or use them if I buy a game w/o a manual/box. I tossed at least 250-300 cases that were broken.
lockheede @ Apr 12th 2009 4:44PM
At Toys R Us, we have 6 dummy cases for new games. You bring if up, we give you the game. If there are > 6 copies in the cabinet the box goes back out. < 6 the the box occupies the space of the game that was there. Easy system and no opened games.
Jinsenken @ Apr 11th 2009 9:13PM
Maybe I just have a really good Gamestop near me, but they've never tried to sell me an opened game as new, nor have they ever given me any problems in general. The biggest issue I've had with my local Gamestop was when I went to buy Baten Kaitos (used version), they gave me Baten Kaitos Origins by accident.
I returned it the same day with no hassle, and they gave me a discount on Kingdom Hearts: Re: Chain of Memories for my trouble.
The guy also told me I should've played Baten Kaitos first and then return it xD, they don't really give a shit about the company. That's why I love my Gamestop.
joevill @ Apr 11th 2009 9:16PM
Just don't shop at GameStop!
Morris_The_Grey @ Apr 11th 2009 9:51PM
I only buy used crap and not new stuff because at gamestop its the same.
Anybody know how much theyll give me for a broken fat ps2? Do they test it when u trade in hardware?
The Baron @ Apr 12th 2009 3:28PM
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/02/05/return-and-burn-fake-ps2-systems-retailers-took-for-real/
I think you'll be fine :D
Moopcow @ Apr 11th 2009 9:58PM
I work at GameStop, and right now with traffic being so heavy we end up selling a ton of opened product. I try to let every customer know if it is an opened copy. Usually they are fine with this, sometimes not which is fine, I try not to worry about them having wasted their time only to find out we don't have it sealed.
The main issue I see is that I give them the incorrect game (it's difficult to look at every disc you take out when you're managing several customers with one to two employees). Since I started in august we only had employee checkouts for a month. I checked out a new copy of Halo Wars and took very good care of it while I had it, and expect my fellow employees did the same with their checkouts. I can't expect this is the case at all stores.
I figure most of our customers are more lenient due to often buying used product. Did I mention I like my job?
xboxdruggie @ Apr 11th 2009 10:14PM
All you twits love to jump on a band wagon huh? Just like the good ole' American way... if someone, person or company, is succeeding and expanding let's all find a flaw and drill them back to hell where the rest are dwelling because of their own lame asses!
Get over it really. gamestop is leaps ahead of standard retai lstores with promotions, trade-in incentives, and reservation premiums that no other retailer has yet to touch.
If this whole "un-sealed" new game irks you... go elsewhere. Problem solved.
Chadillac @ Apr 11th 2009 10:32PM
most intelligent thing said here
cloud858rk @ Apr 11th 2009 10:17PM
Since when did the DS have its games on cartridges? Nobody calls "SD cards" cartridges and DS games are practically the same form factor.
BigD145 @ Apr 12th 2009 2:24AM
Perhaps you're thinking of CF cards. SD cards are less than 1/5th the size of a DS cartridge.
cloud858rk @ Apr 13th 2009 12:17AM
No I'm not thinking of CF cards. Size wise a CF card is more similar to a DS card, but shape wise a SD card is more similar to a DS card. Either way, the DS card is not a cartridge. Even look at the back of a DS Lite, it says "push card to eject".