Japanese hardware sales, May 4 - May 10: Overkill edition

It's a Microsoft game system. In Japan. All things considered. it's doing quite well for itself.

Ouch, poor PS3. Losing to, well, everything in the U.S. and behind the Wii once again in Japan.

There hasn't really been any 'must-have' games for 360 since the RE5/SF:IV n Halo Wars releases about a month ago. E3 should bring some new announcements though. But it is really "ouch" for being so close to the PS2 though globally, and not just in Japan where that kinda stuff is expected.

Poor wii, still getting nothing more than rentals worth playing.

I didn't have any negative or fanboyish intents there WRE, but if you want to play that game you know I can play.

Come on, tmac. We've both been here a long time. Who do you think you're fooling anymore?

Fooling? Last I knew when I woke up this morning I still really liked the 360, but I'm concerned about it. They seem to slowly be drifting towards Nintendo status, as they too have nothing coming this year (I'm praying for a great E3 from them though), and all the rumors of the motion stuff and them buying that casual game company.

And now a last gen console is pressuring them in sales. I know it beat PS3 in america too, but the ps3 is also like $200 more than the cheapest 360, so they can't use the price argument. I'm concerned for them, that's all.

Must.....resist.....list.....wars.

But seriously Tmac, you can't just honestly believe there is nothing worth playing on the Wii out right now. I dont have enough hours in the day and spare time in a year to play and finish all the Wii games i love to death. And being a picky and poor hardcore gamer, i have to be careful about how i spend my gaming dollars to get maximum gameplay for my dollar. Hence why i own a PC for HD and casual games released on Steam, and Wii games for anything worth playing on a console. Sure i'll get a 360 one day when i've got the money and pick up Gears 2, RE5, FFXIII, DMC4 and Fable 2, but they're the only 360 games i can think of that aren't on PC that i would buy a 360 for (yes i know DMC4 is on PC, but it's really a console game).

"I didn't have any negative or fanboyish intents there"

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d2/Lol_whut_translated.jpg

No I don't see anything out or coming out this year worth playing for the wii, unless monster hunter makes it this year. Madworld? A 6 hour game with extremely limited replayability...rental. Punchout and Klonoa? I'm not interested in playing remakes, stop being lazy and release new games. Conduit? I think I've explained why I'm not ever going to play a wii shooter

also, Microsoft can't use the price argument, yet you can? Microsoft can't say that a PS2 is $100 cheaper than the cheapest Xbox, yet you can say that the cheapest Xbox is $200 cheaper than a PS3?

There seems to be multiple standards in play here....

"I think I've explained why I'm not ever going to play a wii shooter"

Is is that you hate the best FPS control scheme on consoles right now?

Because of the far superior and far more accurate controls that are probably 95% as accurate and intuitive as keyboard/mouse? Or because of the lack of HDs (oh noez).

See, that's all you have in favor of the game though...a slightly better control scheme as an answer to a control scheme that works 100% fine already. You can't use graphics, AI, or online because it gets crushed by other HD shooters. THAT'S why I'm never going to play a wii shooter. I don't need motion controls because analog works great enough.

Face it Tmac, I'm sure by the time MH3 comes out, you'll have thought up an excuse on why not to buy it either.

And I don't understand why everybody touts this gen's supposed AI advancements. Game enemies aren't any harder these days than when I was 6. Maybe it's just me, but color me unimpressed. The online is something that is unarguable. Why Nintendo just doesn't flat out copy Live is beyond me. And as long as the game is fun I really don't mind the graphics. I don't know, there's something visceral about using your Wii-mote like a gun. I likes it.

I have to agree. Its a shame that Metal Gear Solid has more advanced AI then almost every game since then

I remember back when Analog worked great enough. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. Now it just doesn't cut it. It's sluggish, awkward and inaccurate. Besides, we don't know how good/bad the AI or online is going to be without playing it, and graphically, it looks far far better than ANYTHING last gen and getting close to very early 360 games. Simply because of the better controls, the game to me, will be far better than any 360/Ps3 FPS game. I had to force myself to finish the Halo games cause the controls were so aweful. I even thought Gears of War had excellent controls for dual-analog, until i played the PC version. Ignorance is bliss!

You just beat killzone 2 WRE and you didn't notice how good the enemy AI was. Play it on hard and it gets even better. Granted, the friendly AI is horrible, and gets worse as you up the difficulty, but it was damn hard to kill people on hard.

Games seem to have the same AI now because we're better gamers now, thats all. We're smarter than we were back then, and can anticipate everything better. AI hasn't gotten worse, we've gotten better. Kinda how i thought TP was far easier than OOT. It's only because i am a more experienced gamer now.

"I remember back when Analog worked great enough. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark"

"Ignorance is bliss!"


Yes it is Foetoid. Yes it is.

No, Im pretty sure that was because they didn't make the Water Temple a fucking masochistic hell hole in TP

AI is MUCH better now. before, AI meant 'stand in the open and shoot'. in games like killzone 2, enemies actually act realistically, bombarding you with grenades, attacking in groups, utilizing exploding pieces in the environment, and taking cover whenever needed.

Lol, Keyboard/MOuse combination is much more powerful than the wii-mote.
Wii mote's have how many accessible buttons?
Switch weapons "A"
Fire Weapon "Trigger"
Move "Nunchuck"
Look "WiiMote"
What about jump, crouch, crawl, quick switch, special weapon select, reload.
All of the other buttons are hard to reach, especially in the midst of action.
Mouse/Keyboard can never be beaten IMHO. Not even by touch/motion sensing technology.

Foetoid: "It's sluggish, awkward, and inaccurate."

1. Sluggishness: Up the sensitivity. No more sluggishness.
2. Awkward: Not for everyone. I feel like I'm king of the online world when I'm playing COD4 with a PS3 controller. With a keyboard/mouse, I still can't get used to Team Fortress 2. It depends on what you grew up on.
3. Inaccurate: That's all you. It actually takes more skill to play with a controller just because it's not as easy to aim as a K/M or Wiimote.

Its a shame you left out 4 buttons and a d-pad (technically giving you 8) yet only listed 6 extra actions

Also, what game maps weapon switching to A? Thats just inexcusable stupidity

Doug

When you play FPS on the Wii (very few, sadly... the control scheme is great)... you use the IR Pointer to aim and move the camera, the analog stick to move, A to shoot and B to jump.

In the nunchuck you have two other buttons, Z and C, you can use one to crouch (and you mentioned crawl... isnt that only crouching and walking?)... you still have one of those buttons free to greanades or something else...

Then you habe the four directions on the d-pad... the d-pad acts as 4 buttons in FPS games. You generally use lef and right on the d-pad to scroll the weapons. And why do you need a button to reload and greandes? You generally do a motion with the remote to reload and a motion with the nunchuk to use the grenades.

Then you have the + and - buttons... Metroid use both buttons very wisely...

The only buttons that are very unacesible are the 1 and 2 buttons, and they generally use those buttons to open the map or something like that.

@doug

and the wiimote with wii motion plus gives you almost infinite motions to do things with. for example, to reload, u have to move the nunchuck to the bottom of the wiimote, like you were putting a new clip into the gun. or the special weapon would be moving the nunchuck under the wiimote and using the nunchuck trigger like it was a under-barrel. both of those ideas would be amazing for shooters. it would actually make gameplay better cuz how fast ur moved would take into acount how fast u reloaded ur gun.

No matter how good you get with the Ps3 controller Ezio, it makes no difference. Put a team of 12 people on Ps3 playing against 12 PC people on COD4 and watch the slaughter commence. I could be the absolute king of using keyboard to aim on PC instead of a mouse, and rock with it, but when coming up against someone with a far superior control scheme, they will simple be a lot better and more accurate. Yes you grew up with dual-analog for FPS games, and you're quite good at using them which is great, but like with my 12 on 12 match i just talked about, the controls make a lot of difference, no matter how good you are with dual-analog.

tmac,
I felt like people were harder to kill in Killzone 2 because I had to shoot them more, not because they were particularly good at evading me. Another thing that bugged about Killzone 2 was that I felt like every time I shot someone in the head I had about a 75% chance of seeing their helmet fly off. You know what, I had fun with Killzone 2 but I didn't love it.

Ezio,
I disagree with your AI assessment. Programming a character to stand behind something instead of out in the open is not a good indicator of intelligence. They were still predictable and easy to kill.

foetoid, once again, you're wrong. assuming you take the 12 best players from consoles and put them up against the 12 best players from PC, it's an even playing field. pure skill matters more than control. the PC players could lose horribly, or vice-versa. it all boils down to a 50/50 combination of skill and luck.

WRE, i said they act like you would. they should be predicable to you if you consider yourself a gamer. and you didn't even address the other things i pointed out. instead of blindly pursuing you, they just pop grenades. instead of rushing at you one at a time, they attack in groups as big as possible.

just to prove my point: play a shooter from last-gen. then play killzone 2. the difference is immediately noticeable.

Yeah pure skill matters more than control. Assuming the 24 players had very similar skill levels for their own control schemes, the Ps3 people would be slaughtered. Pc controls are way way faster and more accurate than dual-analog controls. Go play some CS:S on PC and see. These people who play these games can see a pixel change colour and aim, crouch, shoot in half a second and get a headshot. Its just not possible to be that good with gimped dual-analog controls.

well, if they're all the same skill level, then yeah, you're right. and i'm not even gonna get into a counter strike argument, haha. but look at it this way. if you gave both teams the same controls, the PS3/360 group would destroy the PC group. the console players would adapt more easily to K/M than the PC players would adapt for the controllers.

All I know is apparently the AI in Fallout 3 is silly bad. I came across the Deathclaw Sanctuary and was having some issues killing those things. I took the sensible route initially, laying a trial of frag mines and then finishing it off. Then I realized that if there was a pillar in the middle of the room, that you could just circle it, recharge your AP and finish it off.

Time consuming and all, but kinda silly.

Not to encourage the troll, but he has a point. While I really find them annoying due to my lack of experience with console FPS's - people manage more than just fine with dual analog controls. People play amazingly well with them. It's just a matter of what you practice with. For me, keyboard and mouse is ideal - it's what I grew up with and what I'm used to. For someone who grew up playing Halo, they'd probably struggle (at least at first) with keyboard and mouse. Heck, I've seen exactly that happen when letting people try out games, just as happens to me when I try out console games. Motion controls can work great for a shooter, I found them to be quite impressive in Metroid Prime 3, but it's not like they're that far above any other control scheme that it will be make or break for a game. Any control style, when executed correctly, can control amazingly well. What matters most is the game.

@AI debate: I agree AI has improved historically in some but not all games, but there are two things that don't really convince me:

1. That current AI is actually doing anything more than intensely basic decision-making. I don't honestly have any idea how it is implemented but it kind of looks like they define a bunch of maybe-weighted rules like 'if enemy gets shot, it should use the 'run for cover while returning fire' action'. At least that sounds like it would be a good way to do things and it can give infinitely better results than the old 'stand there and get shot' school of enemy AI... But what I mean is, I'm not convinced they are really using techniques further advanced than AI research of slightly over 40 years ago. This may be a good thing, because most more recent 'AI' techniques don't actually work. :) Just think it's a bit questionable to use the term 'AI' when it's quite often 'ATATSP'.

2. that it really requires more CPU power than last generation / Wii. I know several developers have said when porting games down that the AI will be just the same on a system with ten times less CPU power...that kind of indicates that their 'AI' wasn't actually doing anything clever in the first place. Maybe some games do something really clever, but maybe there are also other cases where improvements are purely due to the efforts of programmers to make a better job of it - rather than throwing hardware at the problem.

It seems like tmac is at it again. Is his only reason on joystiq is just to bitch about the wii? Never understood this irrational hatred that people dedicate hours on blog sites on how much they hate something to...... Actually, it doesn't accomplish anything. All your "hard work" and nothing has actually changed. Is it just attention seeking?

Mouse and keyboard is a far better control scheme for me, as with the ps3/360 controllers. As well as being more accurate with the mouse and keyboard, on ps3/360 you can not normally use the face buttons or dpad. While on a keyboard and mouse, even with a normal two button mouse, most functions are still within reach. Thats another problem with games are running into, do they really need to use every button on the controller?

All i can say is that PS3 and 360 have both been having a very hard time of it in America as of late. Consumer interest around here must be waning.

Their sales are still steady in Europe for both, but America is seeing both flounder

I want to add a post in this long thread to prove that I exist.

About the AI debate, AIs are programmed to run iteratively. This means that they only go through a limited number of loops in decision-making before they have to call it quits and decide on something to do. In programming terms, it's basically using loops or For...Next statements filled with If-Else or Switch cases.

The more robust AIs are ones that run recursively. Problem with such recursive AIs is that it consumes a lot of system resources because the exact same code for decision-making has to be copied over each recursive iteration. While people might say that this isn't a problem, it really is a problem because the complexity of the algorithm's "expansion" is something like O(x^n) [read as Big-Oh, where x is a constant representing the number of branches and n represents the number of recursion involved]. It's not particularly accurate, but the general gist is something like that. The other problem with recursive AIs is that it is much more likely for recursion-based AIs to fall into an infinite loop.

Ah, for those who don't understand what recursion is, recursion is used to describe a function that calls on itself to solve a piece of a bigger puzzle. The Towers of Hanoi is a good example of what a recursive function looks like.

I'd have to agree that more processing power translates to better AI, but only when the developers use efficient coding standards that fully utilize the available processing power. In that sense, Flower is an excellent example of an efficient algorithm that creates individual blades of grass that each react differently to the same stimuli.

BOB SAGET!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY

hiding from the reply button? mind explaining that one?

He'll only post on peoples replys so no one would reply to him directly.

Maybe he just finds replying to be more enjoyable. I know I do.

tmac is the first post in a long ass reply chain