Turn 10 on Forza 3: 'No game competes with us'
by Richard Mitchell 
{ Jun 5th 2009 at 11:45PM } 
"I'm in this industry because of Gran Turismo, let's just be frank," said Greenwalt. He then explained that Gran Turismo inspired his first "stressful" car purchase, a Mitsubishi 3000GT, saying that is was "a great car in that game, and I thought 'Oh my God, if I'm ever going to have a car, that's the car that I want.'" Then things got ugly.
"So, props to Kazunori Yamauchi-san and the PS1 team," said Greenwalt. "That said," he continued, "I feel that he's passed us the baton. Perhaps he hasn't meant to, but we have taken the genre to new levels and they've stopped evolving the genre. So again, tremendous respect to him, but I'd say the differentiator is they're old school." He conclued, "The emperor's naked, and I don't want to, you know, I don't want to slap him around, but no game competes [with] us right now."
A bold claim to make, especially considering that neither Forza 3 nor Gran Turismo 5 have actually released yet. Whenever they do, we're hoping for a good rumble, Sharks vs Jets style.
Get a WordPress.com Blog
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
koehler83 @ Jun 5th 2009 11:49PM
I bet it never outsells Burnout Paradise.
DeepFriedSushi @ Jun 6th 2009 12:06AM
forza a pretty well known brand this type of game appeals more to casuals than the burnout games imo. well that and it actually has REAL cars.
Fun DMC @ Jun 6th 2009 12:25AM
You think Forza appeals to casual gamers more than Burnout Paradise does? So, what's it like in bizarro world?
xcrunk @ Jun 6th 2009 12:26AM
Dan Greenwalt's been blowing allot of hot air lately. It's this sort of arrogance that makes me want to stay completely away from Forza and 360 in general.
Japanese game makers are humble about these kinds of things. They just create amazing games, don't blow off their mouths, and just wow the shit out of people.
Dan, if your game is that good, you'll get the praise you deserve. But acting like a complete ass, flailing your arms about how great your game is and how it's "racing game of this generation" isn't exactly going to make me want to dump $60 bucks into your coffers.
So shut the fuck up and make a good game. Enough with the hot air.
Fun DMC @ Jun 6th 2009 12:30AM
"Japanese game makers are humble about these kinds of things." Uh, I won't make generalisations or blanket statements or anything but from what I've seen over the last few years, that is sooooooo not the case
SimbaDogg @ Jun 6th 2009 12:54AM
seriously...u better step ur game up. i'm as much as a racing sim fan as anyone, but does any other strike me as merely saber rattling? i mean...he's saying that the GT series has stopped with the evolution of racing sims. what exactly has forza added to sim racing that GT hasn't...damage? what...being able to put custom paint jobs on your cars? other than damage, which is far from a forza first...what the hell has he brought to the table in 3 games that is so revolutionary?
DeepFriedSushi @ Jun 6th 2009 1:01AM
^Gran Turismo really hasnt evolved much.
game basically starts you off with license tests
then you slowly build up your car collection
honestly nothing much has changed in GT1-4 other than the number of cars, tracks and graphics.
forza has been bring alot of innovations, customize paint jobs, car damage, drive lines, driving assists, car interiors
now they're adding video capture/editing, tire deformation, roll over physics, rewind functionality, and pretty robust online features for sharing content. (almost like what LBP did for platforms forza is doing with the racing genre)
DeepFriedSushi @ Jun 6th 2009 1:07AM
Fun DMC, i see what you're saying, you'd think burnout's gameplay is much more accessible but forza has the same type of casual appeal that gran turismo does.
people like to see their own cars in a game or that dream car that they have fond memories of. I think especially now forza has really tried to make the game accomidating for non-gamers by adding auto breaking, driving lines, one button driving, and driver assists.
Anticrawl @ Jun 6th 2009 1:10AM
Greetings xcrunk, allow me to introduce you to Sony. Sony this is xcrunk, he's the village idiot.
Micheal82 @ Jun 6th 2009 1:11AM
@Xcrunk Itagaki wants to speak to you
SimbaDogg @ Jun 6th 2009 1:44AM
@ deepfriedsushi
ok...i've never played forza 2, only F1....and compared to gt5 prologue...what else does it really bring to the table besides the basically the crash physics. i'm honestly asking because i have no idea. because i've actually been to D1GP events and the lone American JGTC event and i've heard professional racers talk more about the GT series than forza in terms of realism and physics. I mean a lot of the things you named (racing line, driving assists, tire deformation, video/race capturing) have been in the GT series for a while. The editing feature does sound cool, and so does the roll over physics (this goes hand in hand w/ the crash)...but what else has it brought to the table to make the director of their series say that he was essentially passed the torch. Cuz thats an awfully bold statement to me.
Ysleiro @ Jun 6th 2009 2:02AM
@SimbaDogg All the features that gentleman above mentioned were first introduced (to racing sims) by Forza. There are more features Forza was first at however I do not wish to make myself out to be on a fanboy crusade.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Jun 6th 2009 3:40AM
Ysleiro:
As far as I know, Forza has had good rollover physics since Forza 1. GT 1-4 doesn't have any real ability to model the car rotating on the roll axis, I'm not sure about GT5's capabilities in this area.
SimbaDogg @ Jun 6th 2009 5:48AM
@LS7
gt5 had no ability to whatsoever because they still to this day have no implemented any damange...yet (though its on the horizon). and one thing that seriously has me scratching my head, is me asking honestly, and sincerely what stuff F2 has brought the table since i've only played F1 (and only a tiny bit) and i get down ranked for that? man oh man, forza fanboys are sweet. its like asking "hey i've never played this before, how do you play it" then getting yelled at for not knowing, as if i was supposed to be born w/ the knowledge already. how that makes sense...is beyond me. another low rank i guess
Chris D.(PSN: Aggie_CEO | XBL:The Aggie CEO | Steam: Aggie_CEO @ Jun 6th 2009 8:22AM
he has a point....Forza 3 is only on the 360...Burnout Paradise is on the PS3, 360, and PC...its sold an assload...
Stupidiot @ Jun 6th 2009 8:33AM
Let's not start a discussion on realism of driving physics here, because both games suck in that respect (though I find Forza, personally, to be more enjoyable).
In my experience, true sims are pretty much confined to the PC, partially because of the availability of decent driving peripherals.
The Baron @ Jun 6th 2009 8:49AM
All Forza's 'innovations' have been done before in games like GRID, NFS and Burnout. GT5's not really evolved either, but how can this guy just stand up there and say he's changing the genre (false) and has no competition (false)?
Jared @ Jun 6th 2009 3:04PM
@TheBaron:
Last I checked, Forza was out before GRID. The major thing Forza did that none of the games you listed did had to do with tire dynamics. Forza wrote in the code to simulate tire wear, heat, center of grip, and may other variables that go into how a tire grips the track. Forza2 is an amazing game, still leading the pack even as long in the tooth as it is. Forza 3 is sure to be epic.
ToTheMoon @ Jun 6th 2009 3:19PM
I have to agree with the first post - F3 won't even touch Burnout Paradise in terms of sales.. sure it might be technically more advanced but you have to include the fun factor. I'm also not a fan of buying games from arrogant SOBs. You hear me Oasis!!?? ;)
Mez Jr @ Jun 6th 2009 5:21PM
@The Baron
Really, Forza does not have any competition. there has not been a GT iteration since before the first Forza launched. GT5 may in fact beat the pants off Forza 3, but in all likelihood that will not even matter because it appears likely that GT5 will come out after F3. I hope their both good, I bought a PS2 for GT2, and if something will get me to buy a PS3 it may just be GT5, but its not out, so IMHO GT5 is not relevant when discussing FM3.
Mazrael @ Jun 6th 2009 5:32PM
Burnout is no simulator..!
Burnout's physics are all over the place, it's car's are based on real ones, and most the time don't even handle like them
I loved GT on PS1, then got GT2 which was great too, but seemed to improve & lose something at the same time, If it ever releases, it'll be a top notch sim..
I then moved on to Forza.. that was amazing, Forza 2 did as GT2 did for me..
Forza does far more physics than GT, a rediculous amount, and I think that's where the line is.. my mate went off GT by #4 because it was too sim, he tried Forza, & found it worse (far too sim), even PGR4 was too sim..
Is it possible, the GH/RB comparison falls here too?
GH/GT is for gamers who like music/cars..
and RB/F is for musicians/car ethusiasts that like games..
I'll be picking up Forza 3.. and GT for PSP
The Baron @ Jun 6th 2009 5:41PM
I meant Forza 3. That's the game this guy's talking about.
Watership @ Jun 7th 2009 1:20AM
Burnout Paradise only sold about 2-3 million copies over 3 platforms. Forza 2 sold 4 million copies.
Ezio Auditore de Firenze [PSN SniperChameleon] @ Jun 5th 2009 11:50PM
we'll return to this discussion when both are on store shelves.
Jon D @ Jun 5th 2009 11:53PM
well it'll be another year before this discussion starts up again. lol.
DeepFriedSushi @ Jun 6th 2009 12:07AM
im surprised its coming out october 2009, seems really sudden considering they officially announced it this E3 while GT5 has been announced and teased numerously for years and they even sold beta versions of it.
Rich @ Jun 6th 2009 1:33AM
what the hell is there really to discuss
it would be like a discussion of favorite colors
Ysleiro @ Jun 6th 2009 2:08AM
I HAVE TO WRITE THIS IN CAPS LOCK SO PEOPLE WILL NOTICE.
Ezio I do not wish to disrespect you. However I must say it is hard to refrain from doing so.
I suppose to you the items that are mainstream or sell the most are the best items. I'm pretty sure more Corrollas and Civics are sold every year than there are M3s. Want to enlighten me on which one you think is the better vehicle?
Or lets look at 2007. Transformers (the game) was one of the crappiest titles out that year. Yet it was one of the highest selling games. Want to start evangelizing us into believing that high sales equals greatness?
Here is a tip: High Sales != Greatness
RobLink (Alex Kidd incarnate) @ Jun 6th 2009 3:56AM
@ Ysleiro; I think he means when we are able to play them ourselves to assess the quality.
Also, be careful around him. He's got 2 wrist blades now, I hear.
tobz1000 @ Jun 6th 2009 6:56AM
Ysleiro: What RobLink said. I don't like being rude but since you were, think before you open your goddamn mouth.
Stupidiot @ Jun 6th 2009 9:45AM
Better is entirely subjective, Ysleiro.
TruthBringer @ Jun 7th 2009 12:37AM
People like Ysleiro aren't capable of thinking before arguing. People like him just open their mouths and stupid comes out. The is no process inbetween. Nothing clicks in his head to let hm elaborate on the content he is reading, he just wants to speak and try to make other people feel stupid. At least we know who the stupid one is.
TruthBringer @ Jun 7th 2009 12:40AM
@ tobz1000
How was that for being rude to a rude person? lol
Misfit Toy @ Jun 5th 2009 11:54PM
Both look good. My money is going to Forza though, because the last GT bored me. The last Forza was more fun while still being a sim style racer. Still, I'm sure both will be good games for the respective systems.
Doombot (zuburi) @ Jun 6th 2009 12:19AM
I agree with you.
I used to be a die-hard Gran Turismo fan. Hell, I'll admit it - I was a Gran Turismo Fanboy. After I played the first one over 10 years ago (!!!) on my PS1, I fell in love with the series. Gran Turismo 2 was even better, and I loved the amount of cars it had and the dirt tracks.
Then Gran Turismo 3 came out. It was still good, but the decrease in the number of available cars seemed like a step back to me. I was also disappointed that, aside from the improved graphics, there was nothing really "new" about it.
GT4 came out, and it added a shit-ton of cars. I was happy again, but the experience just wasn't the same - other driving games were coming out that were trying new things like weather systems and damage modeling.
By the time GT5 Prologue came out, I had been playing Forza 2 and Project Gotham 3 for a while. The graphics in the GT series were no longer that impressive (though they're still great), and there wasn't anything that innovative in it aside from paying to watch episodes of car shows. Forza and PGR already did damage modeling (I think Forza did it better) and weather (PGR won that one). They also had really good in-car views, and Forza's paint customization is crazy good.
I prefer Gran Turismo over Project Gotham (I like deep sims), but I'm looking forward to Forza 3 more than anything. I'm still going to get Gran Turismo on the day it releases, but it has a tough act to follow now.
Sorry for all that.
Ridgecity @ Jun 6th 2009 12:38PM
I bought an original xbox360 just for Forza, and a and a PsOne and Ps2 just for Gran Turismo. With the prices of consoles today, I can only afford one console, and it will also probably be
Xiphias @ Jun 6th 2009 2:37PM
I agree, and hope you are right as well.
Although I think Forza 3 is looking to be better than GT5, I hope they are on a similar level upon release, and sell a similar (hopefully high) amount.
There needs to be competition from two great developers such as these to push each other's games to new levels. It just means the end product is much better for the consumers because of it.
This is much like the 'console war', if Sony or MS dropped out, the remaining console would not be nearly as good because of it.
bluesky_v2.01 @ Jun 6th 2009 3:22PM
Sadly, I have to agree with you. I own GT Prologue. Dont get me wrong, the game is amazing. Its, hands down, the best driving simulator I've ever played. The cars look stunning, sometimes I forget that I'm playing a game.
But that's the problem, the game has lost its fun factor . . . sometimes it feels just too realistic.
I still want to play the full version of GT5 before I make any conclusions.
Scooter @ Jun 7th 2009 9:54AM
This thread's a little interesting. It seems like a lot of people are knocking Prolouge because it's "too realistic," and yet most of the claims that spark the whole argument are coming around because Forza's team is spouting off about how their game is the definitive racing game of this generation, and is unparalleled in its realism.
Turn 10 said when they made Forza 1 and 2 that their engine is capable of the most realistic driving simulation ever, but that they had to "dial it back" a bit to make the game more "fun." I think this should be an option on the user's behalf, not a developer decision. Some of us WANT a super-realistic game, and thus gravitate towards GT because it's realistic... I had high hopes for Forza 1 when it was being developed because they had GT squarely in their sights, but when the actual game hit it didn't feel realistic at all... was very "easy" to drive and the cars didn't move in what I felt was a natural and believable way... was like a game somewhere between a sim and an arcade game, that tried to look the part of a realistic game.
Compare GT5 Prologue to Forza 2... play them back to back, on the Suzuka track (since it's in both games), and tell me GT5's graphics and gameplay don't impress. Hell, you could even use the same car (corvette Z06) to compare handling, as I did. And to think that Prologue is over a year old now too.... GT5 proper will look even better when it actually comes out.
As for the lower car count on GT3 vs GT2... modeling the cars took a lot longer as the polygon count went up for each one. The same thing goes for GT5... I believe they said it takes about 3-4 months for one artist to model one car these days, as opposed to a week or so before in the GT1 days. A huge amount of development time for GT goes into modeling the cars, and it shows. Up until Forza 3 was shown, I don't think any game's car models held a candle to GT's, but seeing the new models for Forza really has upped the ante there.
Damage has always been on Yamuuchi's mind, but being a perfectionist he's been hesitant to implement it until he felt that it could be done in a realistic manner. Forza 2's damage is not very good in my opinion... they simply swap textures and pieces of the model out, as opposed to deforming the actual model itself. It's nice that it's THERE, but really I've never considered it a selling point of the game... again most of us would like to see our car make it through a race without learning how well damage will be modeled on it in the event that we screw up.
I'm looking forward to Forza 3, and will be buying it on Day 1, but only as a holdover until GT5 sees the light of day. The new trailer, short as it was, showed the strides the GT team's been making... damage will be there, the visuals look great, the rally racing was previously unknown for GT5 (though GT3 had it... nothing was ever announced or shown for GT5 until E3 2009 in that regard). The fact that it's got the WRC and NASCAR licenses is really a bigger deal than most would think... there's going to be a LOT to do in GT5... even if it doesn't have a skin editor I won't miss it, because I'll be way too busy actually racing.
Kenny Powers Fastball (PSN johnnynumber5) @ Jun 5th 2009 11:57PM
Gran Turismo FO LYFE SON!
DeepFriedSushi @ Jun 6th 2009 1:12AM
mindless fanboy drones for life.
Kenny Powers Fastball (PSN johnnynumber5) @ Jun 6th 2009 2:28PM
It was meant to be a joke ... I've read some of your comments and you aren't one to talk about "mindless fanboy drones" you douche bag MS shill.
John @ Jun 6th 2009 6:11PM
Look the shill recognizes one of his own!!
Bobby S. @ Jun 5th 2009 11:57PM
In terms of sales figure, it's hard to predict which one will sell better.
The Xbox 360 fanbase is larger, but not a very large percentage bought their consoles specifically for a racing game (Halo anyone?).
GT5 will sell like Halo 3 sold on the 360. At least thats what I predict.
Unless MS does a good job for getting this game out there in the public with massive ads.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Jun 6th 2009 1:20AM
I think Forza 3 will sell better as 360 has a larger installed base.
Besides, I dunno if GT5 will ever ship. Polyphony Digital are hopeless.
Rich @ Jun 6th 2009 1:33AM
dude who the hell really cares
Ysleiro @ Jun 6th 2009 2:12AM
Excellent analysis. I too feel like the percentage of folks that bought a PS3 for a racing sim is greater than that of 360 owners.
Just think of all the Europeans that bought it for GT5.
Not only that but you would have to be a fool to not see GT as the more popular of the two. So to be fair to Forza I don't think the odds are in it's favor. Even if it is a better sim.
ExMcCloud @ Jun 6th 2009 2:28AM
GT will sell more hands down....It has to be the biggest game in Europe whenever it comes out. Do that's the easy question to answer....Which will get better ratings is the real question is which will be better. My money is on Forza 400 cars and 100 trax is hard to beat.....100 trax seriously?
meatbag @ Aug 23rd 2009 5:53PM
wait till the price drop hits, sales are expected to jump 30-60% for the ps3. i've heard rumors of an xbox 360 pride drop as well, but i cant see it happening. MS has be shoveling a LOT of cash on the RROD fire and they're working on stayng an injunction wequiring them to stop sales of their cash cow, Office 2007. Even if they get a stay on that, i cant see them losing _more_ money on the xbox.
tmacairjordan87 @ Jun 5th 2009 11:57PM
We'll see when GT 5 comes out, but so far they've got a lot on their plate. It's hard to compete with a game that's been in tough development for at least 4 years when yours is only around 2 or so. The GT director is infamous for his attention to detail, and now that they're adding damage plus WRC and Nascar...I'm just saying it's going to be tough to beat that.
Best of luck to em, but I just find it very hard to believe they're going to outdo GT 5.