Xbox Live: 'Community Games' become 'Indie Games'
by Randy Nelson 
{ Jun 11th 2009 at 11:15PM } 
Microsoft has released version 3.1 of its XNA Game Studio software to independent developers and, in doing so, revealed that a name change is in store for what's now known as Xbox Live Community Games. Beginning in July, these indie games will be known as ... Xbox Live Indie Games. We like it! Though it's not fully spelled out in today's notes from XNA HQ, we'd expect to see Live's game downloads section update with the new name sometime in July as well.
Also incoming is the ability for Xbox Live users to rate the newly-dubbed Indie Games -- the lack of such functionality has so far made tracking down the really good indie offerings on Live a chore.
Also incoming is the ability for Xbox Live users to rate the newly-dubbed Indie Games -- the lack of such functionality has so far made tracking down the really good indie offerings on Live a chore.
[Via Kotaku]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
001011010 @ Jun 11th 2009 11:26PM
What the hell ever happened to Gymnast?! I was (and still am) dying to play this!
( http://www.stromcode.com/2008/04/07/xna-gymnast/ )
Tiptup300 @ Jun 12th 2009 5:04AM
The creator isn't allowed selling games because of his contract for whom he works for.
NOTE TO ALL GAMERS:
Goto http://xblcg.info/ for ratings of Xbox Live Community *indie* games. Very very good site. You can rate games and find tons of information on them.
Tiptup300 @ Jun 12th 2009 5:05AM
You can also get Gymnast free for the PC at Walabers website
Here; http://walaber.com/index.php?action=showitem&id=18
Rhamsey @ Jun 11th 2009 11:26PM
Ive said it before, and ill say it again, 99% of the "indie games" are terrible, shameful rip offs, or just shouldnt be played. If only MS would do what it did with games like dishwasher (ones that actually are good), and promote them in a way by making them actual arcade games. This would not only show off the best of the best, separate the few gems from the trash, but it would also help promote peoples interest in the service, who would then think, hey, if i pay for this and truly work at it, my game wont just be sitting in a see of crap, but my game could be a true arcade game.
Eduardo Hoeller @ Jun 12th 2009 3:40AM
I couldn't agree more with you when you're trashing indie games on the so-called "Community Games". They mostly suck. But have you ever tried to make one? I have. Several times. Be it straight up with XNA, be it using an engine like Torque. And you know what? No matter how good your idea is, your documentation of this idea is, or even your programming skills are. There's only a handful of Johnattan Blows and James Silvas in this world (and if you don't know who they are, I seriously suggest you just shut up on the matter), but for most programmers out there is just impossible to give the necessary amount of care for game design, game script, plot, sound design, graphic design, level design and, of course, programming, in an acceptable level for those who don't understand anything about the process. That's why I've never made public my half-baked crappy projects. But also, that's why I won't badmouth Microsoft or these guys' effort. At least, MS is doing something for people like them, like me. And even if these projects we all do are garbage, that's because we just don't have the experience yet. Have you seem James Silva's first entries in the game world? They were as crappy as most of the Community Games. But back then, there wasn't any service such as this, which allowed indie developers to expose their project as easily. I can even agree that MS pricing policies are steep, but even if they can get 5% of the programmers that think that they're stuck with developing financial management softwares for the rest of their lives stop dreaming about working in the game industry and get them to actually join this industry, the whole service is worthwhile.
yyr @ Jun 12th 2009 9:53AM
Most gamers do not give Community/Indie games a chance.
Take my game, Snake360, for instance. Most gamers take a look at the graphics--which I admit are not very good--and dismiss it immediately, or assume that it's nothing more than the same version of Snake they can play for free on their cell phones. But it's got a 5+ hour campaign that can be played alone or in co-op, and multiple addictive multiplayer battle modes. On the forum at www.snake360.com I got a ton of positive feedback from a very small group of very avid fans. Sadly, most gamers won't see all 300 levels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD0fUJyvJP8
There are many games on CG that are treated the same way, like Tomato Blaster, which has some deep, interesting puzzles but mediocre graphics. Miner Dig Deep isn't a graphical tour de force either but is one of the most addictive games on Xbox LIVE...period. And then there are games up there that BOTH look good AND play well, like Easy Golf, Blow and Biology Battle (now 400 MSP), and games that have even received attention from sites like IGN for being outstanding like Groov.
Anyone who claims that 99% of the games on CG suck obviously hasn't tried 99% of them. I'm not advocating that you try every one, but at least go to xblcg.info and try some of the recommended titles. Your opinion of CG may change!
James @ Jun 12th 2009 11:17AM
The one thing that would help most of these games and make them successful: Get a real artist.
The last game that was artistically ugly but still successful was NetHack. Everything since then, regardless of the graphical capabilities of the platform, still had a certain level of artistic quality. Even in Tetris there's some actual design to the blocks, instead of showing flat colored squares.
When making a game, do not just think about the code or the gameplay. Also think about the art, the graphics, the sound, and the music. If a game is lacking these, as so many community games are, they feel incomplete. And nobody wants a game that feels incomplete.
Rhamsey @ Jun 12th 2009 11:25AM
my reply to all of this is below
SEVENim @ Jun 11th 2009 11:28PM
This name change does nothing but make the condescending hipsters go "did someone say indie?" then say say "nah" and go spend their money at starbucks and urban outfitters instead
ben @ Jun 12th 2009 12:02AM
Or "indie" is short for independent. Which is exactly what these games are: games produced by developers independent of major studios. It's actually a more apt name than "community" which is a pretty ambiguous.
The Alex @ Jun 12th 2009 12:02AM
First of all, the name "Indie Games" to me makes me think of "Games made in India"... the term always has. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just what I think (and, of course, you can draw parrallels to Microsofts phone tech support - if you've had the pleasure of experiencing it).
Anyways, I don't think a name change will improve the service or sales of these games, in my opinion, a user based rating system and better pricing would be the best starts.
One example of a price change would be to offer "Indie" games for 100 MS points for 1 months use (like a rental). It'd be cheaper, more people would give them a try and it'd start putting, at least some, money in developers pockets. Besides, if the game is good, it should have enough to justify keeping it for more than a month. And if the gamer likes the game enough to purchase, they've already put down 100 points, so they just need pay another 300 points to own it permenatly. I should say that this wouldn't remove the need for a trial option, this is just an new alternative for prospective buyers.
One example of a rating system is that anyone who purchases these games has an opportunity to rate the system in a number of catagories such as "controls", "gameplay", "graphics", etc... this would help other purchasers decide what games to go for. This system isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the complete lack of ratings currently available (aside, of course, from doing research online).
ImbecilePete @ Jun 12th 2009 9:31AM
but 99% of Community games can be completed several times in a month
and trials are supposed to be a free version that limits you to one or two levels and give you a nice taste of the gameplay to help you decide whether to buy it
if they start your rental idea it would basicly be 100 point demos
relaxeder @ Jun 12th 2009 12:23AM
Most of the "Community Games" on Xbox Live are just really awful pieces of poorly-designed trash that aren't worth paying ten cents to play. Worse than the kind of stuff you would find on a "1,000 Games In One" CD-ROM in a bargain bin. If they had any kind of quality control process at all for whats sold there with even a fraction of the standards they impose for XBLA games none of them would pass it.
Sheppy (of the Fidlious Clan of Wong) @ Jun 12th 2009 12:40AM
Quality control on your independant channel is a bit redundant, isn't it? And at that point, if all your work can get shut down because one dingledorf on the service shites on the design doc because they don't get it, then what is the point of having the channel in the first place? At that point, all you're talking about is all the problems of XBLA with a high bar of entry, and no real support for independant game companies.
As for quality control on XBLA, it doesn't exists. Quite pretending that it does. Between Mr. Driller Online having a problem with that whole ONLINE part and Yaris, XBLA is just as shit loaded as most other services. Community Games are truly a wild west right now to be certain, but please don't pretend the last four years of 360s game channel has been flawless.
Neuromancer @ Jun 12th 2009 1:23AM
Relaxeder, I don't think you understand the point of XNA. Other than a peer review system there is no quality control, rightfully so.
mister_d @ Jun 12th 2009 12:40AM
The new name is a misnomer. They should be termed "Amateur Games". "Indie" means professional yet funded independently of money from the eventual publisher or self-published. XNA games are amateur rather than professional - no matter how good the game is - because they are not made with profit as the primary motivation.
Whoever decided on the name change at Microsoft should consider the meaning of terms before using them.
Sheppy (of the Fidlious Clan of Wong) @ Jun 12th 2009 12:51AM
It's a sad day indeed when people get this wrapped up in a label. Not every indie game is developed with profit in mind. Period. Independant means just that, independant. Whether the game is deved for money or not is irrelevant to the financial backing of the studio.
Neuromancer @ Jun 12th 2009 1:24AM
Again I agree with Sheppy, your notions of independent vs. amateur are way off base.
mister_d @ Jun 12th 2009 1:34AM
The term "Indie" has a very specific meaning - the one I described. To use the term implies that the games have been developed with the same motivations as actual Indie games such as Braid or Small Arms. Is it really too much to ask that they use the term correctly?
That Fuzzy Bastard @ Jun 12th 2009 9:53AM
But some of them, like Weapon of Choice, do meet your definition of "indie", not "amateur". Plus "indie" sounds wayyy better.
yyr @ Jun 12th 2009 10:04AM
You are wrong.
Indie means independent. I worked for 11 months on Snake360 and other than its mediocre graphics, it has high production quality: 10+ hours of smooth gameplay, tons of features, lots of options, well-designed menus, bugs squashed. Is that "amateur"ish?
Several of the CG were created by actual professional game developers who created their games in their spare time. Are they "amateurs?"
Then you have really good-looking games like Supercow, Smashell and Easy Golf. Do they look amateurish to you?
I'm tired of "indie" meaning "funded and for-profit" to some people. That's not independent. Independent should mean independent. I hate hearing about so-called "indie films" that aren't really independent at all...just produced by a different division of the film studio. That's lame. These games are truly independent, for better or worse...and yes, in some cases, it is better. Big publishers will not be invading this space, like they have done with the iPhone, and that is nothing but positive.
horngreen @ Jun 12th 2009 1:33AM
Let me know when they change the name to "Good Games".
subzedox @ Jun 12th 2009 2:54AM
You know what, I'm an Independent Game Developer using XNA. I have yet to release a game but you know what, with some of you guys attitudes, you'll never like "Indie Games" no matter what. Yes, there alot of BS games on there and then there are few good games on there. You think the iPhone has a shitload of just great games? It's the same thing (and I hate when people say devs should go to iPhone development...never). There are MANY people enjoying Indie Games as there are some devs that are getting thousands of sales and in profit (5 figs I might add).
You want to hate? That's fine, but just know that if you ever wanted to make a game and had the chance to do so, you would hope people would take a chance on your game. Some of us are not only going against people who try out our games but we also have to go against people who aren't even willing to give it a try. Alot of us are students (as I am), little companies, or just hobbyists.
So go ahead, talk sh*t, because at the end of the day, that's all you can do. You'll see my game soon enough on a channel where i can make money (even though I just want people to play my dream game) while you just sit there.
If anyone wants to take offense at my statement, go ahead. Thank you to all of those who understand what we independent developers are going through (who actually try, and not rush out the BS that is on the channel) even if you don't like the channel. Thank you.
relaxeder @ Jun 12th 2009 3:28AM
Dude, I love indie games. There's some fun, truly well-done stuff out there. Cloud, Fez, flOw, Blueberry Garden, Feist, Dyson, PixelJunk Eden, Coil, Osmos, I could go on and on..
Unfortunately almost none of the stuff that populates the Community Games page is anywhere near as interesting, original or fun as any of those games. If you want people to notice your indie game in an ocean of mediocrity, you have to try a little bit harder than making something about as exhilerating as "Zetris Deluxe" and slapping it up on Xbox Live with a piece of cover art you made in MSPaint.
Psychofemm @ Jun 12th 2009 9:26AM
I completely agree.
I have a great deal of respect for the folks that are taking the time and trying to make a cool game. Yeah, they aren't going to be perfect. but they have to start somewhere. and it seems to be an awesome way for them to get their stuff out there and get feedback on what they're doing which will all help them get better and better with each new venture.
I know I've seen some really interesting ideas/games on there. and it's exciting to see what people are thinking. :)
SoulstreakX @ Jun 12th 2009 2:54AM
Aren't you guys kind of missing the point here? With a review system, the few gems among the dreck will inevitably rise to the top. You won't have to worry about dealing with all those horrible games, because you won't have to see them. (I'm assuming a "sort by review score" option is included in the new update.)
Anyway, I'm hoping that's the case when I release my own "Indie Game" sometime in early 2010. Early footage: http://www.vimeo.com/4625307
A little self-promotion, hope you don't mind. = D
subzedox @ Jun 12th 2009 3:01AM
Nice Soulstreak. Clean UI. I would recommend the arrows or something be a little bigger or something, I dunno. But it seems interesting.
Psychofemm @ Jun 12th 2009 9:34AM
Nice.
I do agree with sub about the arrows. bigger and/or color coordinated?
:)
I'll have to remember to check this out when you release it.
Keep livin' the dream!
Luddiz-Boi @ Jun 12th 2009 5:48AM
I'm still waiting for this service to arrive in Sweden =/
That Fuzzy Bastard @ Jun 12th 2009 9:54AM
There's some great stuff on XNA---Audiball, In The Pit, Weapon of Choice and CarnyVale are all awesome. But it's true, it so far hasn't had the artistic ambition we see with Flash games, perhaps because the market is so much smaller. Hopefully that'll change if MS showcases them better.
Psychofemm @ Jun 12th 2009 10:30AM
my friends all clowned on In the Pit.
I did not understand them. I thought it was brilliant.
B @ Jun 12th 2009 11:55AM
Puzzwords! available now :p
Its not terrible!
http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/puzzwords-trailer/320205
Rhamsey @ Jun 12th 2009 11:14AM
Eduardo Hoeller, perhaps i should have said that i have made a few games, 2 homebrew for the DS, and i have used the xna coding to make a couple games for my friends and i to play on games for windows. I understand how hard it is, as i have put many hours into making games myself. however, i have put at least 3 times that coming up with stories and dialog so my games arent absolutely terrible.
Currently I just started writing a new game (part 2) of a game, which is based on a game my friends and i used to play when we were in middle school, with lego, dice, and a candyland board. and i am probably months away from actually starting to use the xna program.
I know that some people put a lot of work into their games, and i applaud them for that, but what is usually not done is to think of what you are doing before you start. its like a rough draft for a thesis paper. With computers you no longer need to worry about making a mistake as you can go back and fix it easily, but as someone who never wrote rough drafts till my second year of college, i can vouch for the fact that planning does making your work so much better.
Rhamsey @ Jun 12th 2009 11:16AM
stupid non auto reply when you get the email that someone replied to you.
Eduardo Hoeller @ Jun 12th 2009 12:12PM
I know what you mean... I recently started a new project with a friend, we came up with the idea last Monday and already met 3 times (each meeting lasting about 3 hours) for brainstorming and documentation. And we're not planning on starting writing code (in fact, he can't even code) 'till everything is refined, confirmed and reconfirmed. I always thought a solid documentation was a waste of time for an "one man project", only "some" documentation was enough, but my previous attempts have proved me wrong.
Oh yeah, and this time around, I'm getting a real graphical designer.
The Alex @ Jun 12th 2009 12:10PM
You must play a lot of Community Games if you know that 99% of them can be "completed several times in a month".
I see that my point has been "downvoted" and I fear it might be because I haven't conveyed my point clearly enough, or some people lack a certain level of comprehension.
I hope everyone understands the concept of the rental. In that when you go to somewhere like Blockbuster, you can pay $10 to play a game for a week, instead of paying full price $60 to purchase it. In that weeks time, it's likely that most games could be completed to some extent within that time. Now, that money you spent on renting it ($10) does NOT go to the developer at all, aside from the initial purchase that Blockbuster made in buying the product (which is likely a reduced "bulk" price in the first place).
My idea, for community games, would be a rental system that allows money to go directly to the pockets of developers (sans the percentage that goes to Microsoft). There is no way most of those games are worth $5 - $10, but at the same time, I'd be willing to pay $1.50 to "rent" them for a month so I get the opportunity to finish them - and if I still enjoy the game to the point that I feel it's worth investing another $3.50, then at the end of the "rental" period, I can buy it outright.
As I stated, this is an Alternative, to trials. Trials will still help people weed out games they have no interest in playing (renting or purchasing), so they are still needed.
Quite possibly my downvotes are for the pricing to rental time ratio; $1.50 for a month might be too much, and maybe it could be $1.50 for 2 weeks instead. My point is to try and find Microsoft and developers alternative ways to get money for these games.
I'm also surprised that people downvote the concept of ratings, I figure this is a no-brainer for most people.
SEVENim @ Jun 13th 2009 1:27PM
Then why not call it independent games? Just saying, the term indie gets thrown around a lot these days.
marc @ Aug 19th 2009 7:20PM
I played my first "Indie" game the other day and was completely satisfied and will be looking for more to play. I would not have heard about it unless they had changed the name as "community games" I always thought was lame avatar party games.
Indie games need more advertisement, more exposure and more importantly a comprehensive rating and recommendation system so that good games can float above "the sea of crap" as others have put it.
If you are a developer, push microsoft to get better exposure, as a buyer I will do my part to continue to buy and support new and quality games as well as spread the word!