Jack White: learning about music through Guitar Hero is 'depressing'
by JC Fletcher 
{ Jun 23rd 2009 at 11:30AM }
Page added, "You think of the drum part that John Bonham did on Led Zeppelin's first track on the first album, 'Good Times Bad Times.' How many drummers in the world can play that part, let alone on Christmas morning?" It's true -- video games aren't doing enough to teach kids to be like John Bonham.
Neither one said that the games weren't fun, or that they shouldn't exist, or anything like that. If anything, the two musicians were commenting on the way kids choose to get their music now, which we understand -- having our music handed to us in game form by Activision is very different from discovering it on the radio or trading tapes. Plus, well, Page is old, and therefore gets a pass on matters of technology. And Jack White wrote "The Same Boy You've Always Known" and can basically say whatever the hell he wants, as far as we're concerned.
[Via Eurogamer]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Zexion_VI @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:35AM
Didn't Prince say something along those lines too? Thats why he doesn't want his songs on Guitar Hero?
Anyway, its a nice thing to introduce people to the world of music. I know plenty of people who started with Guitar Hero and moved on to real guitars. Of course, I don't like how Activision is milking the franchise beyond belief, lol.
Tiptup300 @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:28PM
I really don't see their point. How else do they want people to find new music?
There were really only a few ways in the old days.
- You could just randomly buy music or buy new albums at stores.
- You could hear a song on tv or in a movie and like it.
- You could be at a friends house and they would play something and you would like it.
What's wrong with hearing it in a videogame?
oolz @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:47PM
Jack White is a pompous cock. Dude should focus on writing good songs rather than writing good riffs. The White Stripes are the Montross of today.
Jay Voorhees @ Jun 23rd 2009 3:02PM
Why not take it to the other extreme and have a band release all their records soley on GH or RB DLC? (DEVO style with hopefully better results). Also, Joystiq your GH5 link doesn't work.
alienterrorist @ Jun 23rd 2009 3:21PM
I agree. These types of games introduce kids to REAL music. Not that emo crap that is always on the radio(not an attack on fans of that music).
lisaifahn @ Jun 23rd 2009 3:26PM
Excuse me, but I take time and effort to find emo bands.
kojo87 @ Jun 23rd 2009 5:00PM
oolz: maybe if you really listened to their music you would have a different perspective on it. good music actually requires you to think and pay attention to it. since their debut album in 1999 they have really evolved from pure garage rock and blur the lines between genres. and how many artists can write a song that intelligently uses the word "acetaminophen" in the chorus?
i would say Guitar Hero and Rockband are better ways to find music these days than the radio. if i hear someone say "disco stick" once more i will punch them
kojo87 @ Jun 23rd 2009 5:02PM
oh and Rolling Stone ranked Jack White as the 17th best guitarist of all time
The Baron @ Jul 1st 2009 9:12PM
Since when did Rolling Stone have a clue what they're talking about?
Shagittarius @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:36AM
I accept your challenge Jimmy Page, Give me Good Times Bad Times by Christmas morning and I will try to play it on expert.
Young_Nastyman @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:38AM
HAHA! I was thinking the same thing +1
Collymilad @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:36AM
Sorry but what an arse.
I know they aren't saying games shouldn't exist etc, but it's insulting.
I mean if you actually look at it what they are basically saying is that games are a lower form of media than others, aren't they? They say it's sad that kids get music through games. So why isn't it said that they get it through all the other ways they have gotten it for years e.g. TV, Radio, Magazines?
But then again remember people who play games are geeks who stay inside and have no social skills at all, so that must be why it's "sad"
Ghen @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:43AM
Agreed, I've gotten to know a few bands through guitar hero. The game acts as a demo basically, and then you go buy the full album on amazon or itunes whatever. How is that bad/sad?
charlie b. @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:47PM
although i love Rock Band as much as anybody, i have to agree with Mr. White. in the 21st century digital age, people seem to no longer appreciate full albums, the thrill of discovering music through your local record store, through word of mouth, through live shows, or hell, even through terrestrial radio.
i'm all for different avenues of discovering music, but it's just kinda sad to see more tangible forms of music discovery (outside of digital distribution) fall by the way side.
i'm a sucker for the old school, much like Mr. White, what can i say?
the times they are a-becoming quite different, i guess.
Sheppy (of the Fidlious Clan of Wong) @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:30PM
Actually I'd say the opposite is true so I think Mr. White comes off sounding like a fucking luddite. Considering the lack of production he puts into his music, I'd say Luddite is quite accurate.
But for the sake of arguement, people no longer appreciate full albums? Part of me wants to agree with you but MUSICIANS haven't given a shit about full albums in a LOOOOOOOOOONG time. Since even in the 60s, the single was what mattered. You cut the single to drive the album. Acts that actually cared about an album instead of the song is, and always has been, less than 1% of the industry. You can't fault consumers for not being into the albums nowadays when the onus falls on bands to actually produce an album that actually feels like an album instead of a selection of songs.
The thrill of discovering music through your local record store? Dude, this is nice and all if you HAVE a local record store. Nowadays I find local music when I go in to buy new strings or I've run out of picks. For most of america, the concept of the record store hasn't been around for MOST of the current consumers lifespans. Unless you count Walmart as a record store, this is a pretty ignorant arguement to make.
Word of mouth is actually the most common way new music is being discovered nowadays. Except picture this, if you will. Once upon a time, you circle of friends was 10-20 people at most. Someone discovers somethign and spreads it about. In the information age, that small circle has LITERALLY turned into thousands upon thousands of people. My friends and I have no problem discovering new music.
Live Shows are a joke nowadays. If you're not getting into an overbooked small venue, you're walking through booth after booth of merch dealers and Amp'd promo displays. I quit going to lives because you pay too much for too little.
Terrestrial Radio was, is, and always will be a joke. Want to hear the latest Aerosmith single? Listen to the radio. Want to hear a cut from a Refreshments album that wasn't a single? Look to your own collection.
Frankly, times are changing and that CAN be frightening. But just think... once upon a time a priest was required to make his own copy of the bible by hand. Printing press changed that tradition. We are on the verge of a new music industry and people like Mr. White sit in a rocking chair and lust for the good ol'days which were actually quit shit. You have more ways to reach consumers than ever before. All you gotta do is quit being such a luddite and embrace it.
I remember when Music Videos were going to kill the industry...
charlie b. @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:39PM
@Sheppy: while i agree with your statements and see your points, i was only saying that i miss the old way of doing things. before the digital age. that's all.
Danny @ Jun 23rd 2009 3:03PM
@Sheppy
Live shows are a joke? What are you talking about and what shows are you going to? I like supporting my local music scene, granted I have one of the biggest scenes in the country (Los Angeles) but still. I agree that festivals tend to be meh because you're paying $35+ to see a band for a half an hour.
Also there are many bands focused on full albums and they don't make up 1% of the industry. But of course you'd have to define what an album album is. Anyway kids don't put on a single record and listen to the whole thing anymore, they just skip over the non single tracks. How much of this is the fault of the new technology or the lack of attention span in youth is not clear.
As for social networking turning your friend pool into a list thousands strong, well that's a rant for a different day.
Monkeydog @ Jun 23rd 2009 4:47PM
@Sheppy
What are you talking about bands don't care about albums?
The Decemberists and Green Day both just released Rock Operas of all things. Certainly The Decemberists are more niche than Green Day, but they still charted 14 on Billboard when the album came out, and stayed at the top of iTunes for a while. While Green Day came out charting at number 1. So it's not like two bands who don't matter whatsoever. Same can be said about Animal Collective's Merriweather Post Pavilion, they all came out condemning leaks because one wasn't experiencing the whole album.
I don't think it's musician's that don't care about making an album, I think it's the masses who don't care to listen to it. Plus the popular musicians who couldn't make a proper album if they tried.
And what are you talking about? I've never been to a live show like that. That sounds far more like a music festival than an actual show. Which are two different things, in a sense.
I don't think White was trying to say, experiencing the music in the game is fine...but some kids will just understand it differently. In a media where it's just you and the music, and nothing else, it's a more intimate situation where you actually can listen to the music if you concentrate on it. Paying attention to what had to be done to make the song or album. While if you're playing a song, and you beat it easily, people tend to get a pompously big head about it and be like pfft that was easy and that song sucks. You don't really try to understand why the song is great, or how it is actually difficult in real life, you're more focused on playing the game, less on the song itself. Not to say everyone is like this, but I know almost every one of my friends is, and I know most of the time when I'm playing guitar or drums I don't really even care about the song, more about winning.
chispito @ Jun 23rd 2009 5:22PM
@Charlie
I don't see your point about singles versus albums. I buy good albums, and if good albums don't exist, singles will suffice.
charlie b. @ Jun 23rd 2009 5:40PM
@Monkeydog: +1 for mentioning The Decemberists. Hazards of Love is win.
Taylor Barratt @ Jun 24th 2009 10:15AM
charlie b:
I'm sorry but some of your comments are a short sighted as White and Page's.
I discover new music all the time through the almost brilliant iTunes (I'd prefer lower quality longer clips though). Some days I'll just click around it and check out bands albums I've never heard of and have bought dozens of albums the past 6 months this way. Also online radio systems like last.fm and Pandora have done a great job introducing me to new artists and sounds. Something terrestrial and to a lesser extent, satellite, radio can't.
Record stores are useless (hence why they're disappering). Unless you're swimming in money or one hell of a loner the gross majority of the population would never have walked into a store and randomly pulled out a tape, lp or CD from a band you never heard of, have no recommendation of and took it home.
What these guys aren't thinking about is how games like GH/RB bring people so much closer to their music than the average record buyer, or radio listener. People learn the lyrics, people appreciate the complexity and artistry of the arrangements and have a better chance of feeling the music in this way than through their crappy little car stereo on static filled FM radio. Most importantly, it keeps some classic stuff people would never otherwise hear, alive!
Is it as deep as a music appreciation course in university? No, but for the average joe, who loves music but isn't about to devote their life to it, it makes them a better, more informed and appreciative fan. For kids, this increases the chance they'd become involved at the next level of music.
I know through the last (almost) 2 years of playing RB drums, I would love to get a real set and dork around with a band, but my reality is... 1) I'm married and in my mid 30's, I know no-one who knows how to play anything who actually has time. 2) I don't really have anywhere to put a real set (though I could just swap the brain on the ION I suppose and get 80% there) and 3) I don't really have the time to do it either on a regular enough basis for it to make any sense.
The fact I can get close, without having to deal withour rearranging my life and dealing with band-drama is fine for me. I have no aspirations to become a rock star.
catfish24 @ Jun 26th 2009 8:11PM
I agree with you Monkeydog. When I play these games, I play songs that sound good to my ears, but I don't really pay attention to anything else but the instrument that I'm playing in game. I'm focused and concentrated on winning. It's not the same as me listening to albums for pleasure. When I'm listening for pleasure, I tend to notice the different instruments, pay attention to the meaning of the lyrics, and overall try to understand the meaning and emotion behind the song. GH or RB will never give that experience to anyone.
Azerael @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:38AM
I find that a talentless twat like Jack White still gets media coverage is depressing.
Charmed @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:05PM
I find it disturbing that you're calling someone else "talentless" and a "twat". But then again you probably like Brittney Spears or some idiotic rapper with the word "boy" in his name...
Onto the actual discussion. I think Jack has a good point. Also, look at the way the songs have gone steadily downhill since the release of the first GH. It came out pretty metal and since III it's gone more and more mainstream. Some of the songs on there pretty much sicken me just trying to get through them.
charlie b. @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:12PM
@Charmed: yes, because heaven forbid people who don't like metal are allowed to get in on the fun.
PR0F3TA @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:50PM
@ Charmed
you're not one of those dumbasses are you? you know the type... "the music i listen to is better then anything you listen to" or the classic "i know what real good music sounds like"... anyways you prob listen to avenged sevenfold and think you are the most hardcore kid around
Robert27 @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:40AM
Pic is of The White Stripes, isn´t it?
Aivskar @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:46AM
Yes. Simpsons, episode 380.
bongoes @ Jun 23rd 2009 2:04PM
What's the name of the episode?
david c @ Jun 23rd 2009 2:39PM
The Hardest Simpson to Simpson, a play on the song title "The Hardest Button To Button"
david c @ Jun 23rd 2009 2:43PM
I am mistaken according to Wikipedia, the episode is called "Jazzy and the Pussycats".
Jack Tretton @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:44AM
On one hand the likes of White and Page kind of thumb their noses at "kids" discovering music via Rock Band and Guitar Hero, and on the other there's Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson who've said the games are great ways to discover new music and get to hear tracks from fogies like Rush.
And no one gets to emulate John Bonham in their living room like that until Led Zeppelin permits their music to appear in GH or RB.
dogmaticatheist @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:32PM
Yup.. and this is exactly why Rush will endure long after the White Stripes are forgotten.
Jack Spicer PSN: watsuke @ Jun 23rd 2009 4:26PM
Its sad more and more people are watching stories instead of reading them. Im not against movies, its just really pathetic there are people who watch movies based on books yet never read the books.
Hm, yea, i guess thats a win...
Hafkie @ Jun 24th 2009 3:57PM
You know what's funny? Jimmy Page says that this would ruin the integrity of Zep's music.
I had to sit though Shrek 3 for a younger sibling, and they DESTROYED Zep's Immigrant Song. Led Zeppelin's Integrity has already been ruined, if you have heard THAT version.
Trust me, it's not about the integrity. They just haven't thrown out a high-enough number yet.
Markez @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:44AM
It's simply a new medium by which people are introduced to music which they may have been unlikely to have heard at all otherwise. Everybody knows it's no substitute for learning an instrument, even though these topics get filled with 'go play a real instrument' moron commenters. They should be happy that there is a current forum for younger people to learn about, and appreciate their music through new media. I hate this type of hate from hacks (in my opinion) from the White Stripes, when the platform serves to intoduce more and more potential consumers to their music. It's not a 'hear it on the radio, buy it in store' world anymore, and for people as young as the Whites, it's remarkably ignorant for them to still expect it to be this way. They should appreciate the additional exposure. imo, imo
Prof_Chaos @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:00PM
It's not even a new medium really. It's a form of game soundtrack, just that the soundtrack is involved in the game now. Talented musicians need to realize could never play half of these songs without years of practice, which most of us can't give. But we can sit down and pretend that we can play them on a video game.
Mr. White please stop trying to take yourself so seriously. Mr. Page gets a pass for being in one of the greatest bands of all time.
charlie b. @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:00PM
"and for people as young as the Whites..."
Jack White will be 34 in a few weeks.
just saying.
Sly @ Jun 23rd 2009 1:25PM
"hacks (in my opinion) from the White Stripes"
jack is one of my favorite singer/guitarists. meg is a below average drummer though. she's good for setting a decent beat, but she's nothing special. and for page's comment, i will agree, and add that john bonham is the greatest drummer ever (in my honest opinion). its sad that he died so early.
PSN:JACKOFNOTRADES85 @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:45AM
When I see a kid never miss a note on guitar hero on expert, I think to my self, "Man this kid would be great on a guitar if he put that much effort into playing the real thing."
vidGuy @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:50AM
The problem is the learning curve. I'd say anyone could pick up a real guitar and learn a simple three chord song, but that's not nearly as exciting as "playing" the tunes on a music game.
Markez @ Jun 23rd 2009 11:55AM
GH or RB does absolutely NOT translate into any exceptional ability to play real guitar/bass. Perhaps for drums, but that's it.
Shagittarius @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:01PM
The drums can teach you limb independance, give you 'muscle memory', and allow you to work on stick control. The same kinds of things you could have learned by playing pillows on your bed. This has been accepted as good training for a long time. I can't imagine why Jimmy can't make the connection at least for drums.
Certainly I understand where he's coming from with the guitar, It doesn't teach you any truely usable skills. If you get into a piece of music beacuse you enjoyed playing it in the game though whats wrong with that?
Shadow El @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:08PM
"GH or RB does absolutely NOT translate into any exceptional ability to play real guitar/bass"
Maybe not guitar, but bass? Sure it does. Builds finger speed and dexterity, and since most bass is only played on one string at a time, the strumming could do a decent job of emulating playing on a bass, especially if you strum the proper way (which I know not most people would, but still.)
cknblade @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:14PM
While I think that guitar hero could build, as Shadow El said, finger dexterity, but beyond that, I don't know. I play the bass a bit, and frankly, the strumming technique I use for guitar hero (coming from someone who plays expert fairly well) is entirely different from an acceptable base strum. If you do a base strum on the guitar hero guitar, in my experience, the strum bar recoils down after the strum and causes a down strum in addition to the up strum (hard to explain, try it on a peripheral, you'll see what I mean).
Markez @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:14PM
Nah, good point, I'll agree with that.
Tiptup300 @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:29PM
Man, when I see someone win a match at call of duty, I just think to myself, why doesn't that kid join the army.
/sarcasm
BananaBoat @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:38PM
I think what critics fail to realize is that no one thought of Guitar Hero or Rock Band as training for a real instrument anyway. It's not as if someone would ever go "well, I'm a master of Guitar Hero, so there is no reason to learn a real instrument". If anything, Guitar Hero and Rock Band introduce kids to types of music they'd never have heard had it not been for the game, and makes them want to learn a real instrument.
My real instrument playing ability consists of being able to play 4 or so chords on the guitar, a few songs on the piano, and Mary Had a Little Lamb on the Sax. My ability as a kid to stick with any one instrument for more than a month (guitar especially. Strings raped my fingers) wasn't very good. A game like Guitar Hero may have given me that extra push I needed to stick with it, but since no game of the sort existed, I gave up music and dedicated my school years to sports (which turned out poorly, as it does in 90% of cases)
Hopefully Guitar Hero has been teaching kids that if you want to be good at something, you've got to stick with it for years. I know that people didn't become experts at the game over night.
Carson72 @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:40PM
Kid's like that would be great at guitar. I picked up a guitar after playing guitar hero. Despite the learning curve those kids that can hit every note on expert would have the perseverance to try and play those songs perfectly on a real guitar too. I was never the best at guitar hero but now i play some Rock Band and Guitar Hero songs on a real guitar than in the game.
rubAdub72 @ Jun 23rd 2009 12:43PM
This is the most common misconception this music games bring, playing music "for real" takes far more dedication and skill than the hardest song on expert mode ever will.
The sucess of these games is allowing people to live the FANTASY of playing an instrument and being in a band, which is a common thing for many who lack the skill to play the real thing. Like me.
and what's wrong with learning music from a new media? who cares where was the first place anyone heard a song, if they like the song and get interested and the artist's body of work, everybody wins.