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Reader Comments (62)

Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:09AM (Unverified) said

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SOL will not get a C&D. Stop arguing that it will, Nintendo doesn't care about fangames.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:11AM NutMan said

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We'll see.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:13AM Nytemare said

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"Nintendo doesn't care about fangames."

IIRC, Nintendo sent a cease and desist letter to makers of some fangame...
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:14AM (Unverified) said

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No, we don't need to see. Because sites like http://mfgg.net/ and http://metroidr.brpxqzme.net/ exist and Nintendo is fully aware of their existence, and have been for years.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:15AM (Unverified) said

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Its very, very, very likely, It'll happen. You are kidding yourself that Nintendo wont do anything.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:22AM The Aquacharger said

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You know companies are legally forced to sue and send C&D when their copyright materials are being infringed upon. Why do you think Lucas sues so many people? He's actually legally forced too. If he doesn't he'll lose the right to whatever is being infringed upon.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:27AM vidguy said

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@The Aquacharger,

You are thinking of trademarks. Copyright lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years (in most circumstances), whether the rightsholder sues or not. A trademark holder, on the other hand, risks having his mark go generic (think kleenex or xerox) or get diluted if he doesn't sue.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:29AM Shay Guy said

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No he won't.

And the question stands -- how is this different from a fan fiction continuation of a novel or novel series?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:34AM The Aquacharger said

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@Vidguy
Sorry, the two can be easily mixxed up. My bad.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:36AM vidguy said

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Just trying to help ;)
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 3:55AM DeepFriedSushi said

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if they simply change up the ship/character models it would be legal?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:09PM ch3burashka said

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Why are you so sure? Do you have some inside intel or what???
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:27PM (Unverified) said

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While it isn't directly from Nintendo of America,

Dylan Cuthbert, who LEGALLY worked on several Star Fox Games (Including Star Fox: Command) was asked about Shadows of Lylat and has responded with this:

"Well, as long as they don’t try to make money from it, it is “fan-art” and ok as far as I’m aware.

I think I saw a video of this on youtube a while back and it looked interesting in a hard core kind of way, but I haven’t seen any recent revisions.

Interesting comment? Hmm.. Best of luck to them - I know personally how tough it is to make a Star Fox game (having made 3 of them), and it’s not as easy as it looks."

(Source: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2007/01/10/dylan-cuthbert-on-shadows-of-lylat/)
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:15AM TheDarkWayne said

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I just need Left 4 Winchester and the KOTOR 2 revival project to come out. Nothing else matters
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 2:08AM (Unverified) said

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Left 4 Winchester will probably happen Valve has never had a problem with a fan mod.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:34AM (Unverified) said

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Though Shadows of Lylat looks badass,

Left 4 Winchester will be the uhh... "mod" of the year.

+1
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 3:35AM TheDarkWayne said

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it's not valve thats the problem its the studio that distributed and produced shaun of the dead
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 3:44AM TheDarkWayne said

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valve isnt the problem its shaun of the deads production studio that'll stop it
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:20AM StarFoxA said

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I think Square shutting down a freaking ROM HACK is a little ridiculous, but I can completely understand them wanting to stop ambitious complete 3D remakes of stuff like Chrono Trigger.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:29AM (Unverified) said

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Chrono Resurrection looked like a treat Too bad, eh?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:59AM RyogaVee said

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Just wait till Square kills "Dead Fantasy"
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:22AM Kattleox said

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this reminds me of Kings Quest Nine. Fans around the world banded together to make a conclusive Kings Quest title (something the mediocre KqVIII wasnt) and were quickly shot down by Vivendi. Now they are making a game similar to and based on the events of KQ but they arent allowed to actually use the property. Too bad LucasArts cant get any competition these days, unless you call Leisure Suit Larry "competition". He's far from competitive anymore.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:25AM vidguy said

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While I find it incredibly unlikely that a fan sequel could ever constitute a fair use - even though it does add to the "useful Arts" as copyright desires, it completely free rides on the developer's potential market for a sequel - I do find it interesting that a parody work stands a better chance at the claim.

See Suntrust v. Houghton Mifflin Co., 252 F.3d 1165 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suntrust_v._Houghton_Mifflin) and Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v._Acuff-Rose_Music,_Inc.)

The whole realm of parody is an interesting one in US copyright law. Whereas you normally cannot appropriate the expressive content of a copyrighted work (characters, scenes, etc), a parodist is allowed to copy what is necessary to conjure up the original work in the audiences' mind. So while you couldn't write a new book about Harry Potter (an infringement on the rightsholder's derivative works right), you could, in certain circumstances, write a book about Barry Clotter, the teen wizard who goes to a school named Pigfarts, yadda yadda.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:42AM Wiizer said

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So, essentially, all avatars and works that everyone uses in said avatars can be 'restricted'?

It seems that you can't police everyone if this is the law... So, are we getting around copyright laws in the sense that everyone is 'speeding on the highway' and we all can't be told to slow down?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:53AM vidguy said

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In many respects, yes. Obviously the rightsholder is going to chose his battles carefully, not only to control legal costs but also to prevent alienating his consumers. While an avatar is a technical infringement of copyright law (a copy "capable of being perceived in a tangible form"), it is a small one that does no real monetary damage - unless they want to argue that, for example, Nintendo should be selling Mario avatars, which would likely be a claim in that kind of suit.

That's one of the problems with fan works. The author/developer/publisher hates to go after the people who do these things because they are the most die-hard fans, the ones that make them money. But some things are just to be to let go. Read up on the recent Harry Potter Lexicon legal troubles to see a good example of this dilemma.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:54AM evan742 said

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Wouldn't there be some instances where, as parody, you could actually write a book about Harry Potter? I mean, if SNL decides to do an Harry Potter sketch, they're just as likely to call the character Harry Potter as to make up a similar name. And that would be pretty obviously parody.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:54AM vidguy said

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"just *too big* to let go"
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:57AM vidguy said

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@evan, you're right. You don't need to change names for a parody. In that Suntrust case I linked, the defendant pretty much copied the entire set of characters, scenes, and plot from "Gone With the Wind," but did so in such a parodic way as to constitute fair use. Also note that the defendant made money off her parody book; a commercial use does not automatically prevent a claim of fair use, though it does weaken it.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:42AM NickNameless said

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"So, does this mean I think everyone should abandon all of their fan projects? No, I just think those participating need to have realistic expectations with regard to their work and be doing it for the fun of it." - Mark Methenitis

I think that most succinctly describes the work ethic that folks involved in fan-based projects should take. I think the Mother3 fan translation team probably serves as the best example; they worked on the project for the love of the series, but were always willing to drop it at any sign of an official translation coming down the pipeline.

Working hard on a project and then bickering about it when a cease and desist comes your way seems unproductive and foolish unless you first attempt to change the laws that make such things inevitable. Unless you seek to stop the tide, don't go about making your sand castles by the rising waters.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:46AM Fo0dNippl3 said

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Even though it would be hard to keep a secret, I think everyone working on fan projects like this should keep it hidden until the day of release. That way, even if you are serves a C&D, it'll already be out in the world for everyone to enjoy!
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 9:25AM xxxsam said

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This. Well, you can't keep it entirely secret otherwise how would you get contributors - but seriously, this is the internet, why are people being stopped by C&Ds? Answer: Because they used real or identifiable names, ran their own domains, etc...

If you're doing something like a fan-game which is illegal and takes a lot of effort over a long period of time, you absolutely need to organise like a hacking/cracking/etc crew and not pretend like you're all totally above board. that means identities are kept secret with only handles used, information about the project is placed on other people's websites and not on anything associated with anyone to do with the project, etc. It's not rocket science.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 9:29AM xxxsam said

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Oh, another tip - separate the 'fangame' nature from the development. For instance, build the game so that the illegal bit (any stolen graphics, any text including character names etc) lives in a separate layer. Then the illegal part is a much smaller deal, easier to manage, and can be released independently without association with the public project. So you have a massive and publicly visible effort on 'Fan Game 37' with the characters 'Bob' and 'Mary' both of whom are different-coloured Pac-man sprites, but when installing the special illegal layer, the names and graphics are changed and suddenly it's Final Fantasy 15 or whatever.
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Posted: Jul 28th 2009 1:12PM Bolts said

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I think you've been watching too much of "The Wire"
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:52AM (Unverified) said

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I'm glad Pier Solar is exempt from these things, as it's an original work. TSLRP is also important to me...IF its ever released.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 12:55AM Premature ejaculation man said

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Halogen would have been the best Generals mod. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:05AM Pinto said

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I don't understand why Nintendo would ever release a C&D on something like SoL or even mario kart source. They would be pushing away their core fans without any positive effect.

If the big N eventually made a good star fox wii game, we would still buy it regardless of having SoL right? I don't see any loss of profits because of these fan projects.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:18AM Roto13 said

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There have been a LOT of Nintendo fangames. I don't remember ever hearing of them issuing a C&D for any of them.

Square Enix, on the other hand....
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:49AM PyrosNine said

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I always hope they'll take this game they've spent their time working on for months and years before a C & D, and just remake it into something original. They built the engine, drew the graphics, made music, a graphical overhaul and a few tweaks and it's an original game.

The CT fan game could have been the most awesome fan-made rpg ever.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 2:15AM The Nth Doctor said

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What I don't understand is why the people who make these awesome fan-games don't just make them spiritual successors instead of actual sequels.

If SoL had the gameplay of Star Fox, with an art style, characters, and plot that all also evoked Star Fox, without actually using anything copyrighted, we would all essentially be getting an awesome Star Fox game without any legal issues.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 2:29AM chuckrich81 said

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Agreed. It's essentially what they've done with Shadow Complex.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 10:18AM vidguy said

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Exactly. What you describe is known as the idea-expression distinction in US copyright law. Essentially, copyright does not protect the /idea/ of a work (animals piloting space fighters), only the expressive content (names, recognizable sprites, etc). So if a fan-sequel was carefully designed, it would be completely legal.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 10:14AM (Unverified) said

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where do re-creations fall into this? whether it is full-on, to-the-t remake or a fan made update. a perfect example is Goldeneye Source www.goldeneyesource.net.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 2:48AM (Unverified) said

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And I suppose I'll make the obligatory post pointing out that Japan is way ahead of us in this regard. On one hand it's a legal gray area where they could, in theory, go after these authors, but choose to sort of look the other way while dispatching agents to study the trends of what is and isn't popular. But the benefits of the current landscape of what can be produced as 同人 (fanmade) works has given rise to a thriving community and allows artists, musicians, and programmers budding and professional alike, an outlet to stretch their wings and refine themselves. Many comic artists in recent years have gotten their start selling fan-comics at the Summer and Winter Comic Market, a huge event held at Tokyo Big Sight that draws in excess of half a million people.

There's also a really neat collaboration concept of "circles," loose groups of individuals that collaborate with one another under the same banner. It's similar in some ways to a company, but is largely absent of the stigma attached to working for a couple different companies in the same field at the same time. It's a much better environment if you look at it from the standpoint of how enabled the people are to collaborative creativity.

It would be pretty awesome if we could get similar movements going in places that aren't an archipelago nation.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 3:45AM TheDarkWayne said

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wtf @archipelago part
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 4:03AM (Unverified) said

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I lol'd hard at people downrating my comment because they don't know what they're talking about.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 1:28PM RyanLN said

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They failed to realize that the Dark Yoshi is a member of the board of directors of a multibillion dollar, multinational company with fingers in so many pies that it had to borrow fingers from India and China. They didn't understand that the Dark Yoshi has an intimate understanding of the vagaries of copyright enforcement, corporate entropy and legal obligations to shareholders. Clearly they are mistaken when they believe that there comes a tipping point where an infringement is so large or egregious that a company HAS to do something. Knowing all of that, I "lol'd" too. At you.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 5:06PM (Unverified) said

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The difference is you're the one who has no idea what he's talking about.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 4:16AM drunkenpandaren said

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More importantly, does this apply to Beyond the Red Line?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 9:23AM rowie4life said

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"But more importantly, these fan sequels can hurt the market for the developer's sequel, or even hurt the original game if the quality is poor or the substance is horribly offensive to the majority of the fanbase."

What bullshit. The people that download these fan made games know it fan made, and as a result will judge the people that made it. If anything it could help the franchise, by keeping it in the minds of gamer.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 11:27AM FredFredrickson said

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But if the fan-made sequel turns out to be as good as, or better than any "official" sequels, then it could hurt business because people aren't going to pay for something they can get for free.
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