TGS 2009: Xbox 360 Creator Panel Discussion recap
by Ludwig Kietzmann 
{ Sep 24th 2009 at 3:01PM } 
It was immediately noted that no ideas or concepts -- erupting from Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid), Keiji Inafune (Mega Man, Dead Rising) and Toshihiro Nagoshi (Monkey Ball, Yakuza) -- should be considered actual, in-development concepts. Which is just as well, because it didn't take long for the trio to joke about a motion-enabled female feel-'em-up (see above gesture for context).
Keiji Inafune was the one to bring it up, noting that the evolution of controllers was "way behind the evolution of graphics." According to Inafune, "Body language is part of this important evolution. With Natal we can involve ourselves. I'm getting really excited and show it in my body or action. Instead of pressing the button, it can be truly immersive experience."
Toshihiro Nagoshi described Natal as a way of intensifying audience participation, saying, "I think Japanese performance is going to be a lot more exciting and may change the way we express ourselves. Emotion to draw me into imitating and copying what I saw on the TV screen. " Ultimately, Nagoshi expressed hope in using Natal to capture something ... a little more realistic. "I cannot reveal what I'm really thinking about," he said. "Sense of life, I hope to create a sense of life on the screen. This is my personal interest."
Natal's capabilities extend beyond our own personal interests, Kojima believes. "I think we have to go beyond entertainment," he said. "The medical field -- an operation can use this technology." Of course, things in the living room will change significantly too, he predicted. "And the muscles you'll gain!"
It's not as easy as flailing and building up the biceps, though, as all three creators agreed that transitioning between gamepads and motion controls would require a degree of elegance from creators. Nagoshi insisted that developers should "nurture" players in the midst of switching over. At the same time, both Inafune and Kojima praised Natal for its ability to still interact with traditional controllers. "We, the creators, have some reluctance in throwing away all the past," Inafune admitted. "It's an an add-on, so you don't have to do away with the old technologies and can add to the foundation."
And it's all a bit like driving a car, you see. "The steering wheel -- unless you are given the wheel-shaped wheel, you won't be able to drive," said Kojima. "If you're told to pretend you're holding a wheel in your hand, you'll be able to play the game." Of course, for all the unique ideas, the creator was adamant that he would not want to leave his hardcore gamer fans behind.
"Using Natal, I'd like to come up with a completely innovative game, but core users are my fans," Kojima explained. "I would not like to leave them behind, so I should make a car that can fly ... sticking with the metaphor." The joke was a bit lost in translation, prompting Kojima to say, "It's so quiet! Are the interpreters interpreting? We should use Natal to communicate. Natal lingo!"
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
magicianoffear @ Sep 24th 2009 3:10PM
Don't care about Natal or whos making games for it. These guys are real leaders in gaming but this all seemed a little phoned in especially from Nagoshi who has so far only supported PS3. Seems to me like MS is on damage control with Natal because the E3 hype has dies and with many calling BS on its features seems like they are rushing to show that they have support for it, but we need a Natal controlled monkey ball game like we need chop sticks for fingers.
David @ Sep 24th 2009 3:34PM
what are you talking about the hype has died? you're flat out making things up. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has seen the natal demo has had the same reaction, that this technology is amazing and most of us never even thought we'd see it in our lifetimes (creepy milo, for example). i showed this to my relatives at a family reunion, most of them people who could care less about buying a gaming system, and all of them were amazed and were immediately asking where and how they could get this.
there seems to be this reaction here on joystiq (maybe because we're all disillusioned with the Wii, maybe because some people don't want to see this succeed for certain reasons) that natal isn't at all a big deal, but i think that's seriously disconnected with the actual perception of this. as far as i can tell, lots of people are holding their breaths on this to see how it comes out. i'm not saying it's going to be good (the Wii taught us that lesson), but for you to pretend like no one is excited about this couldn't be further from the truth.
otarumx @ Sep 24th 2009 3:40PM
Err, not EVERY SINGLE PERSON, I still remain skeptical mainly because the demo was not really that interesting to me, especially the girl jumping around like she was having a seizure or something and the "target video" even though it seems cool is still to far from being real.
[ArchiGamer] [Painstakingly Written Before A Live Audience] @ Sep 24th 2009 3:40PM
Its not lack of excitement, its more speculation on what Natal can -actually- do. We have only seen a video of Natal opposed to something more tangible and presumably, believable. The only way all this excitement for Natal that we all had at E3 to come back, is only possible when we actually see projects implemented for Natal.
shadowhowl1900 @ Sep 24th 2009 3:44PM
the technology is amazing but the video they showed to promote it, the ad, was like the most stupidest thing ive seen.
PR0F3TA (PSN - PROPHETA) @ Sep 24th 2009 3:44PM
LMAO with a comment like David's you can bet Natal will never be out of hype...
"his technology is amazing and most of us never even thought we'd see it in our lifetimes"
you hear that, nobody would have thought we would be talking back to a 12 y.o. on a TV screen in our lifetime
"and all of them were amazed and were immediately asking where and how they could get this."
OMG TEH CASUALS!!
"lots of people are holding their breaths on this to see how it comes out"
when you are playing doge-the-ball and Paint-an-elephant then maybe you could take that breath you been holding in buddy
David @ Sep 24th 2009 3:50PM
in case you didn't notice when i said it, Profeta, i'm waiting just as much as anyone to see if this will actually be good or not. i think that both natal and the motion wand have tremendous potential to fail miserably or succeed in ways the wii never could have.
and when i said every single person, i meant of people who i know who have seen the demo, i should have included that, my fault.
i'm just as skeptical as you are, and you can bet your ass i'm going to wait several months when natal/motion want are released to see if its actually any good or not. but for someone to try to act like no one's excited about it is retarded, because people definitely are.
Anthology @ Sep 24th 2009 3:51PM
@Pr0f3ta:
u mad brah?
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 3:54PM
I think he just means that people aren't as crazy over Natal because we haven't been shown anything that worked well and for the most part everything they did show at E3 was little more than fake footage. The stuff they have shown hasn't been very precise or accurate. Just because your relatives were in awe doesn't mean that represents the rest of the populus either. It seems that MS is trying to reinvigorate people to the idea by announcing all this publisher support. We've seen the PS3 motion controller in action multiple times in live demonstrations with practical applications which seems more plausible than Natal which is little more than smoke and mirrors at this point. Also, Natal hasn't shown anything in real time that new or hasn't/couldn't of already been done with the eye toy. Once people see cool applications then they will give a crap. As it stands it's the same as Manbearpig, santa, tooth-fairy, etc i.e. not real.
David @ Sep 24th 2009 3:57PM
that's a good point johnny, MS definitely hasn't done enough to showcase the technology in real life (although the burnout paradise demo on Jimmy Fallon was pretty sweet, i'd buy that in a heartbeat). like i said, it comes down to when it comes out.....will they ACTUALLY back up their claims, or will it just become a wii-clone with mini-games?
some of us are hopeful, some of us are skeptical. i'm a mix of both.
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 4:03PM
David
Now you are twisting his words around and flat out making shit up your own damn self.
"but for someone to try to act like no one's excited about it is retarded, because people definitely are."
He wasn't acting like anything. He was giving his hypothesis as to why we all of a sudden have an avalanche of MS trotting out developers saying how great natal is.
His exact quote was: "Seems to me like MS is on damage control with Natal because the E3 hype has dies and with many calling BS on its features seems like they are rushing to show that they have support for it"
See the part where he says "seems to me ..." He is expressing his opinion rather than making some glittering generality.
Don't be such a whiny little defensive bitch. Big deal that your 7 year old cousin, 13 year old retarded little brother and 47 year old casual auntie care about Natal. They aren't the rest of the world. I'd bet most people don't know what the hell Natal is or what its supposed to do in the least bit. Aneceotal evidence FTL.
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 4:07PM
David
My last post was harsh and I apologize for the tone and derogatory language. It's just annoying to see you twisting and spinning his words like that.
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 4:20PM
What was so great about the Jimmy Fallon video? It looked clunky and unresponsive which is the exact charge people are leveling against Microsoft. SImply put, Natal's E3 hype hasn't met it's execution.
Watch the execution (it's AWFUL)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX7TyAKQE74&feature=related
http://www.hulu.com/watch/77038/late-night-with-jimmy-fallon-project-natal-demo
Compare the real world execution to the smoke and mirros from E3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_txF7iETX0
Nothing they have shown has worked anywhere near as good as a regular controller.
Watch Jimmy Fallon control the car ... he can barely keep it going straight.
Kodros @ Sep 24th 2009 5:31PM
"although the burnout paradise demo on Jimmy Fallon was pretty sweet"
No, it really, really wasn't sweet.
David @ Sep 24th 2009 7:08PM
Johnny:
right so because jimmy fallon sucks at burnout paradise, i can automatically assume that project natal sucks? great logic there buddy. i play burnout paradise quite a bit and even i'd expect that as a FIRST TIME PLAYER of a COMPLETELY NEW TECHNOLOGY i would suck at the thing for 30 or so seconds. there's a natural calibration that anyone would have to adjust to, i'm sure we all experienced this the first time we played wii.
and the first commenter said "the hype has died." i was responding specifically to that, there's no twisting of anything.
but whatever, i'd put in a more long-winded and coherent argument here, but you're such an asshole that it's not even worth it. seriously, insulting someone's family for no reason? i mean, i realize it's the internet and all, but c'mon. i'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you have a lot of trouble making friends.
Cody @ Sep 24th 2009 3:12PM
"noting that the evolution of controllers was "way behind the evolution of graphics."
Exactly the issue Nintendo attacked in '06 and why the Wii has been so successful.
And why Micorosoft and Sony are scrambling to play catch up with their also-ran efforts.
PR0F3TA (PSN - PROPHETA) @ Sep 24th 2009 3:35PM
oh really? because last time i checked i will be playing Modern Warfare 2, Final Fantasy XIII, Borderlands, Uncharted 2, and God of War 3.
Sony/MS are trying to play catch up with the casuals, not advanced controls you jackass. A touch screen is more advanced and look how horrible that is for gaming.
Nintendo should have played catch up on making a next gen system, with the basics at least
Cody @ Sep 24th 2009 5:54PM
I wasn't referring to their software, but rather their 2009 motion enabled hardware efforts.
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 3:15PM
The more motion controllers proliferate the more I'm convinced games are not art.
[ArchiGamer] [Painstakingly Written Before A Live Audience] @ Sep 24th 2009 3:32PM
Unless we count them as interactive art...
David @ Sep 24th 2009 3:36PM
the biggest sin of the art gallery: convincing us that art can't be interactive.
and the biggest barrier to recognizing games as art isn't motion control, it's the people making video games. most people who make video games don't consider themselves artists, and as long as those games sell, there's even less incentive to change the lens with which developers view their products.
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 3:44PM
I guess you could argue that a physical experience is a specific kind of art experience. However I think the more personal and introspective the experience is the more likely your going to take something with you from it other than, "Derp, my arms/ass/face is sore".
There's a huge difference between a movie and a workout video.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 4:03PM
What on earth is your rationale in saying that the controller, or the control method, dictates whether it's art or not?
That's as ridiculous as trying to state that games were no longer capable of being art when the industry moved from a simple dpad to analog sticks.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 4:06PM
I mean I know you're of the 'derp Nintendo is ruining the industry' ilk, but honestly this is one of the most ludicrous and indefensible opinions I've ever seen out of you.
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 4:12PM
Usually art is an experience of the Psyche, it's personal, internal and emotional.
A controller that makes you interact physically is simply distracting from the actual experience the game is trying to convey. Unless of course like I said before your intention is to make a workout video.
In the case of motion controls, the control experience overrides the artistic experience of playing the game and the games mental effect on you takes a back seat to the mechanical and physical exertions of manipulating the game world.
In closing this is why motion controls suck and also why there is a game that you can control with your ass.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 4:16PM
Okami on PS2 - Use a clunky analog stick to simulate a paint brush to draw a symbol.
Okami on Wii - Use a more fluid controller to actually 'draw' what you're supposed to be painting.
Which one of these is more counter-intuitive, and likely to draw you away from the experience? Your bias is reaallllly making you stretch on this one, and it's not working.
"A controller that makes you interact physically is simply distracting from the actual experience the game is trying to convey" - You're physically interacting with a controller regardless of console or controller scheme.
"In the case of motion controls, the control experience overrides the artistic experience of playing the game and the games mental effect on you takes a back seat to the mechanical and physical exertions of manipulating the game world." - Makes just as much sense to say pressing 4 labeled buttons and using a control stick does the same thing.
Really, really flimsy dude.
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 4:22PM
I should also remind you that what your talking about is simulation Markez and by its very definition simulation is absolutely not art.
Simulating the way you would do something in real life may be convenient but it doesn't make it more artistic.
In fact I would argue you make things more mundane the closer you get to simulating life 1:1.
Tell me would The Godfather be a better movie if you had to mimic the camera movements while you were watching it, or would it ditract you from the purpose of the film?
Additionally your arguing that the idea of drawing a symbol on the screen was a good mechanic for controllers to begin with. I'm not going to take an example of an ill-conceived controller scheme that happens to translate better on another device as an example that the tech is better suited all around, but then I'm not a Wii fanboy.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 4:31PM
"I should also remind you that what your talking about is simulation Markez and by its very definition simulation is absolutely not art." - which does nothing whatsoever to aid your argument that somehow motion controls affect videogames ability to be art.
"I'm not going to take an example of an ill-conceived controller scheme that happens to translate better on another device as an example that the tech is better suited all around, but then I'm not a Wii fanboy." I certainly never claimed that one was better than the other, you were.
The Godfather example is pretty silly, we're talking about videogames, not movies. Camera movement is another example of something that can detract from an involved gaming experience, regardless of controller.
Of course you're not a Wii fanboy, you just really, really hate it which is why you're going to such silly lengths to try and make a lousy argument.
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 4:36PM
Look if you don't get art then you probably bought the right console.
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 4:42PM
What Shag is saying is that motion controls themselves remove part of the introspection equation by making it more about the act of the movement than the representation of the movement in the fictional game world. When you turn it into shake this way, swing that way, rotate here etc it becomes less about the world and events and more about the movement outside of the fictional world. I think that type of movement will only give better immersion if you are actually in a virtual reality world with those movements. That way it would feel real and make sense. Otherwise, it's little more than an unnecessary exercise routine. I think being forced to move you body is a step back from a streamlined control pad that gives you more control and less flexibility. The power of the mind working in tandem with the hands is more tactical and expressive than flailing around pretending to be performing the actions.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 4:50PM
The argument fails utterly because of his insistence upon absolutes. Control implementation, regardless of traditional versus motion, vary greatly by game, by developer, etc. Whether it works, whether it doesn't, isn't uniform across all games simply because of the controller used. It's just an asinine argument. Not everything is a flailing wagglefest, and not everything on a DS3 or 360 contoller is a perfectly tuned control experience.
And saying that perhaps I just don't get art because one of the consoles I own is a Wii to me means little more than you're giving up on trying to be sensible about it.
johnnynumber5 @ Sep 24th 2009 5:02PM
The very purpose of motion controls is translating real world movement into a movement in the virtual space. It's more "primitive" and is supposed to give a more realistic portrayl of said movement. Why sit on the couch and hardly move your wrists if motion control is important? The entire purpose of a motion control is to get people moving around. A possible by-product of said "organic" controls is the removal introspection because one is focusing more on the movement than the meaning of what they are experiencing. I agree wit the Wii thing - thats a cop out on a man who is conceding defeat. For the record, I'm not saying I agree with either of you I'm just trying to give my interpretation on the situation ... you dig?
Shagittarius @ Sep 24th 2009 5:14PM
I don't feel the need to defend my comments however picking on me for finally leveling a low blow at markez after he tried to insult me in everyone of his previous comments is pretty weak.
I only said that because he had it coming.
Bubbameister33 @ Sep 24th 2009 5:59PM
I wonder how a blind person defines art, if they cannot see what we call art?
mahouneko @ Sep 24th 2009 7:08PM
@Markez:
Okami on the Wii was "fluid"? That sounds like utter bullshit and you know it.
Markez @ Sep 24th 2009 8:08PM
I haven't played Okami on the Wii, however, idea-wise, doing those symbols with a wiimote makes significantly more sense 'immersion' wise than it does with a dual analog controller.
Regardless, trying to claim that the controller being used dictates a games ability to be art or not is absolute lunacy. Formal logic is lost on most here, but following from Shag's points that trying to say that videogames lose ability to be art simply because they're no longer using keyboard+mouse or dual-analog is again, simply stated, idiocy.
Halo Pony @ Sep 24th 2009 3:20PM
Microsoft showing up at TGS kind of makes me think of a Tofu company setting up a booth at a chocolate convention.
You're just trying way too hard at a place where nobody is really that interested in what you have to offer.
Jack Tretton @ Sep 24th 2009 3:34PM
"You're just trying way too hard at a place where nobody is really that interested in what you have to offer."
Funny, I was just about to make the same remark about you.
Babel @ Sep 24th 2009 4:47PM
The word 'owned' is tossed around a lot these days...
abelpc @ Sep 24th 2009 6:31PM
I "Owned" a Wii and I sold it for a second PS3.
Grendizer @ Sep 24th 2009 3:23PM
Kojima-san : "You will be able to fondle breasts like that..."
Inafune-san : "Or like that if they're huge"
And you can see from Nagoshi-san's face that he rikes it.
CJLopez @ Sep 24th 2009 3:24PM
are you my twin?
CJLopez @ Sep 24th 2009 3:23PM
Kojima: "With Natal, imaginary bobbies aint that farfetched"
Guy on the right: "I rather have maginary buttocks!!!!"
New, from Ubisoft:
Imaginez! Sexual Harrasment. Now Milo enabled!!!!!! Only for X-Box 360
dAnixx @ Sep 24th 2009 3:36PM
THIS ^
Dirty @ Sep 24th 2009 4:43PM
If only Michael Jackson had lived to see the day.
Oh no, that silly Michael Jackson Troll has infected my brain!!!
xxhonkeyxx @ Sep 24th 2009 8:02PM
"I'm getting really excited and show it in my body or action. Instead of pressing the button, it can be truly immersive experience."
..... IN BED!!!
Doug @ Sep 24th 2009 3:34PM
Hmm...Can't the Playstation Eye already do what Natal WILL do? I'm pretty interested in what Natal is bringing to the table, but from what I've read, and from what I understand, The Playstation Eye can already do all those things. Just, no developers have given it a shot, yet. Am I correct?
David @ Sep 24th 2009 3:44PM
yes and no. the eye toy has motion sensing, but as far as i know it doesn't map the skeleton like the natal does, which i think is why sony is using a wand for motion tracking. the biggest difference, though, is that natal has it's own separate processor, so that when it comes to (hopefully) making intricate, "core" games, it'll have a lot of extra muscle when it has to simultaneously track and incorporate a player's actions while running a game.
i think they both have their strengths and weakness. in the end, it comes down to who implements theirs better.
Badboy1979 @ Sep 24th 2009 3:45PM
Unfortunately, no.... on paper, Natal is suppose to do FULL body 3d/depth tracking down to even your fingers (it also can track in low light levels). The Eye hasn't been shown to the do that yet and with the new PS motion controller it will track hands only.
It would be interesting to see if a dev could write out a underlying firmware upgrade that would enable the PSEye to track as much as Natal will but the BIG problem would be system resources. Natal has it's own processor on board to do the "math" so the strain on the 360's resources is limited where as the PS3 would be doing all the work to do the tracking PLUS handling whatever game code is running.
otarumx @ Sep 24th 2009 3:36PM
So from what I get it was a bunch of people gushing over technology yet unproven excited about the posibilities of something that they don't know what to do with yet?