TGS 2009: Body-on: Project Natal (with Space Invaders Extreme!)

We've heard it before: Natal is Microsoft's sledgehammer, swung straight into the walls that years of button pressing and circle strafing have slowly erected around traditional gaming. We've seen similar attacks from Nintendo's Wii, as well as from the massive genre of the Instrument Protagonist, but Microsoft is hoping for much more than a dent. In the wall. Do you get it? It's like a metaphor and stuff.
The bizarre problem with Natal in its early state is that it, um, works. The technology is clearly functional -- heck, it's vaguely magical -- which makes the absence of truly compelling software almost immediately disappointing. Anyone can simply hop in front of the camera, which never seems to stop and ask, "Who are you and where did you come from -- and why are you so fat compared to the last person?" You're recognized within seconds and can start playing a moment later. And then you slap flying balls.
It's a bit of an unfair demand considering the product's not due until 2010, but the impatience is testament to the convincing nature of the technology itself. In the meantime, Microsoft is exploring Natal's tricks in two existing games: Beautiful Katamari and Space Invaders Extreme.
Gallery: Space Invaders Extreme (XBLA)
Did you just briefly imagine how those two games would work with a camera? The chances are good that your ideas line up perfectly with those from Microsoft, since they're so elegant and simple. In the case of Katamari, the titular junk ball is steered by pushing its imaginary equivalent in front of you, arms outstretched and hands turning to change direction. Tsunoda dubbed it a Superman pose -- which we sincerely hope makes its way into an actual Superman game in the future.
Space Invaders Extreme was even easier to grasp, though having the simplest premise in the entire world certainly helps (reminder: shoot the aliens). In Taito's hypnotic update to the xenophobic classic, your body becomes the ship at the bottom of the screen. Moving back and forth horizontally steers the ship, while raising your arms will fire your weapon at the incoming aliens. It's up to you whether you simply hold your arms aloft and fire continuously, or do a ridiculous double-handed chopping motion when you want to fire in interrupted bursts. The latter is much more entertaining, most of all for the people watching you.

Some quick precision is lost when ditching the d-pad or analogue stick (consequently making high scores in Space Invaders Extreme more difficult to attain), but as an alternative Natal offers an effective and accessible control system. There's still a question mark over the technology's noticeable input lag -- Kudo Tsunoda assured us that the final product would aim for a more acceptable latency of 100ms -- but quick reflexes aren't really required to enjoy a game like Space Invaders casually. In other words, the intended audience isn't likely to care that much.
But what of those who do care? As Metal Gear Solid creator Hideo Kojima recently pointed out during the Xbox 360 Creator Discussion Panel, one of Natal's strengths is its peaceful coexistence with traditional controllers. The potential for hybrid control schemes, or even subtle motion-based enhancements, could yield some very unique titles in the future. The gap between potential and reality is significant, but considering how much exercise he's been getting, perhaps Kudo Tsunoda is the one to leap over it.













Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
CTC XBL-supapaypamawio PSN-ctclaw @ Sep 25th 2009 10:14AM
IDUNNOLOLOLOL
jynxycat @ Sep 25th 2009 10:15AM
Kojima hit it square on the head.
Hybrid controls that use the camera system passively, or subtly, are the games that will really push this forward.
Straight motion control games will be upgraded versions of Wii shovelware.
I'm extremely excited to see what Kojima will release.
Jonah Penne @ Sep 25th 2009 11:15AM
Agreed. It would be awesome to play with a conventional controller, but have Natal record things like facial expressions or the occasional gesture. Awesome example: A game where you control your character with the controller, but use hand signals or spoken orders to command AI teammates.
PR0F3TA (PSN - PROPHETA) @ Sep 25th 2009 11:33AM
who said Kojima is releasing a game for Natal? He did a press conference about motion control and Natal's recognition, no where did he say he was going to work on a game for it.
So far all we have seen is casual games for it, don't expect anything good and deep out of natal till at least 2011
Anthology @ Sep 25th 2009 12:52PM
Profeta is like Pachter except his predictions are baseless.
LEWI5777 @ Oct 2nd 2009 11:18PM
On a different note, who is your avatar?
mattF @ Sep 25th 2009 10:17AM
100ms latency is huge...I would think that an acceptable maximum would be more like 10-20.
SoulBlade @ Sep 25th 2009 10:28AM
wow i didn't catch that bit.. that's already a 3 frame lag...
definitely not for the core experiences..
xtremeholymuffin @ Sep 25th 2009 10:31AM
actually, 50ms is the fastest that a game running at 60fps can possibly reach, and few games reach that. So no, 100ms is not a lot.
Enosoma @ Sep 25th 2009 10:32AM
You realize we're talking about Space Invaders, right?
xtremeholymuffin @ Sep 25th 2009 10:35AM
also, 100ms is the fastest that a game running at 30fps can reach, GTAIV, for example, has a 133ms latency.
SoulBlade @ Sep 25th 2009 10:47AM
xtreme - how are you getting your numbers?
SoulBlade @ Sep 25th 2009 11:11AM
nevermind - read some links and googled around...
jynxycat @ Sep 25th 2009 11:20AM
100ms is normal for any controller, for a game running at 30fps.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Sep 25th 2009 11:39AM
Yes, 100ms is a huge amount of input lag. xtreme is full of it.
As to this latency article, the article is measuring total input, processing and output lag, including your TVs display lag (which rarely will be less than 1 frame). The designers of Natal are talking about trying to reach 100ms just for the input recognition and deliver time, which is just the input lag portion.
I don't see how 3 frames is the minimum round trip time, even including 1 frame of lag for your TV. If I press the button just before the end of a frame, then I only have the tail of that frame delay before the button is read and forwaded, we'll assume 0ms there, since I got lucky on the timing. Then the game will start rendering a new frame with my input taken into account, while this is done, a previous frame, which was already rendered is being displayed (as the game is double buffered), so that's an entire frame of lag. But after that 1 frame lag, the new frame is displayed. So if I have a CRT, that's 1 frame of lag. If I have an LCD or such (I do), it'll be another frame before that comes out, 2 frames of lag.
That should mean the minimum round-trip latency is 33ms for a 60fps game that is double buffered. Now, the average lag under that setup would be 42ms, since I'm not going to get lucky and push the button right at the end of a frame every time, so I have to add another half frame, an average of 0-1 frame time of delay time between my press and when it is even read.
If a game is triple buffered, it could mean the minimum latency is 3 frames, if the game does its processing in the most straightforward manner. But not all games are triple buffered and you don't have to do your input processing in the most straightforward manner (guitar games sure don't!).
Another note: The 2405FPW doesn't have a 3 frame lag, it was the 2408FPW that had huge lag, but Dell fixed it later.
Either way, no matter what the round trip latency is for the game processing, adding another 100ms input lag on top will make the total latency noticeably higher. It would at least double the latency.
R (Planeteers | Power of Penile Pulse) @ Sep 25th 2009 1:28PM
100ms is the length of the average blink, lol.
arrrgh @ Sep 25th 2009 5:27PM
How do you know he didn't mean they were shooting for a total round-trip lag of 100ms? Lots can be lost in translation from foreign press conference to internet blog comments
why not the LS2LS7? @ Sep 26th 2009 3:47AM
Natal doesn't have any control over any part of the total round-trip latency other than the input portion.
Why do you think they'd count the lag generated by the LCD TV, when changing to another TV would change it? Why do you think they'd count the lag in the game when that's up to the game programmers?
copa @ Sep 25th 2009 10:18AM
"Moving back and forth horizontally steers the ship, while raising your arms will fire your weapon at the incoming aliens."
That sounds annoying as shit after about two minutes.
Enosoma @ Sep 25th 2009 10:34AM
I bet every amputee who was excited about not needing a controller to play with Natal is disappointed with the concept of using your arms to fire a weapon.
Chris D.(PSN: Aggie_CEO | XBL:The Aggie CEO | Steam: Aggie_CEO @ Sep 25th 2009 11:21AM
I have to agree....I mean I know there will be better games than this...but this damn sure doesnt make me want "NATAL" at all
maveric101 @ Sep 25th 2009 11:32AM
the image in my head literally made me lol. seeing a person scuttering back and forth with their hand up like a crab...
Kenoji (aka Neo Asuma) @ Oct 2nd 2009 11:24PM
I agree with Chris. I don't know about you, but I'd rather press a button than hold my arms up or wave them up and down.
That's ridiculous.
Kizzle @ Sep 25th 2009 10:30AM
I like how the press is generally saying this thing actually works and can be very fun, but we still will get a bunch of drooling 'tards who've never used it showing up to say it sucks and nobody needs this.
Duke @ Sep 25th 2009 10:35AM
Well, I don't like the idea of it being used all the time, but I like the idea of it being used in a more passive sense. Some of the people just don't like motion controls as the means to play their games. I don't think that makes them "tards".
TwEE @ Sep 25th 2009 11:02AM
I'm very skeptical of anything involving Microsoft or the press. Must feel good to have faith.
xtremeholymuffin @ Sep 25th 2009 10:30AM
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/xtremeholymuffin/1245019162596.jpg
Mr Khan @ Sep 25th 2009 10:36AM
I still find the whole approach of "but you can use a traditional controller with it," to be rather confusing. The point of Natal is to replace a controller, if you have to have a controller with it, you might as well drop the pretense and just use the damn controller
I quite realize that subtler motion control has often been better for older game-types (except for anything that can use pointing functionality to great effect), but why can't Natal itself do the subtler things? This is the problem that Microsoft engineers should overcome within the product itself.
Cody @ Sep 25th 2009 10:59AM
"I still find the whole approach of "but you can use a traditional controller with it," to be rather confusing. The point of Natal is to replace a controller, if you have to have a controller with it, you might as well drop the pretense and just use the damn controller"
Exactly. This thing will not reach a 3rd of the success levels as Wii.
At least Sony is taking a decent path of their own.
dood @ Sep 25th 2009 11:05AM
maybe something like strafing by moving your upper body while sitting on a couch, point weapon with your finger(s), while the other hand, makes simple gestures, maybe show backhand or palm to shoot, holding palm side ways to the camera stops the shooting. Then you hit these huge buttons on screen like you do on the iphone to move forwards or backwards lol.
JXCgunrunna @ Sep 25th 2009 11:23AM
I hope to god this doesnt make it into every shooter out there. Some might be able to work in small things but without an IR pointer a shooter can not have the precision needed to be competitive.
I think this would work best with RTS games like Endwar where you can use voice to issue commands and ur hands to move around the map.
Duke @ Sep 25th 2009 11:41AM
We got it already Cody, you slam anything MS does. We got it.
Cody @ Sep 25th 2009 1:01PM
I got it Duke, you stalk and slam every post I put up that rubs you the wrong way because you have a hidden distain for my Pro Nintendo views, I got it.
Duke @ Sep 25th 2009 1:10PM
I really don't slam you that often, but if you need to feel you're that important then go right ahead. You being pro-Nintendo has little to do with pissing on every MS related issue.
Cody @ Sep 25th 2009 6:42PM
I'm sorry were you saying something?
antcoh1791 @ Sep 25th 2009 10:46AM
My thoughts for a third person melee game controls:
Movement:
Step right foot forward - Move forward
Step right foot or left foot back - move backwards
Turn Hips - Turn
Stomp right foot - Stop Movement
Melee:
Left arm = Shield
Right Arm = Sword
Look Around/Camera:
Head Movement = Look Around
Options/Inventory:
Stomp right foot twice - open inventory *Usage of controller or hand gestures like pointing
Stomp left foot - back out option
I think if they make the lower half of the body static and the upper body free movement, we can really get some awesome semi virtual reality experience. What you guys think?
SoulBlade @ Sep 25th 2009 10:49AM
how do you crouch or jump? FPS games require teabagging now.
mr nimblewick @ Sep 25th 2009 10:58AM
I hope you weren't one of the people complaining about looking stupid while playing the Wii.
GiggMan @ Sep 25th 2009 11:09AM
There's going to be some furniture moving going on in Antcoh's house!
Damian @ Sep 25th 2009 11:10AM
If you turn your head, how do you see the tv?
Vcize @ Sep 25th 2009 11:17AM
"how do you crouch or jump?"
By crouching and jumping maybe?
Shagittarius @ Sep 25th 2009 1:08PM
If only they could come up with a controller that was more responsive and less work to use, then they'd be on to something!
Kodros @ Sep 25th 2009 2:06PM
"What you guys think? "
I'll be blunt. I think it sucks. I'm want to play a video game, not Twister.
Mr.U2 @ Sep 25th 2009 10:54AM
I heard that THQ owns a lot of Instrument Protagonists.
Pip @ Sep 25th 2009 11:03AM
Is anyone actually looking forward to this or think it will be something they really want to use?
I'm going to be completely honest here and say I am absolutely not excited about this in any sort of way. I think Microsoft is late to the boat, and the novelty of raising your arms to shoot stuff died out after the first week of owning a Wii. The whole waggle idea and concept is perfectly fine in moderation, but entire games it is just too annoying.
I guess I agree with what Kojima is saying. Use it sparingly.
And with that said, no one will want to spend a penny of a device that is rarely used.
It's a no win situation and I think Microsoft should be putting more efforts into their next console instead of this junk.
catfish24 @ Sep 25th 2009 11:43AM
Yeah, I agree with you.
That's the main reason I'm probably going to end up passing on this if I ever get a 360. Why pay for something that's probably going to cost $150 (MS already charges $100 for a wifi adapter lol) when it's either going to only be used for subtle movements or be used to a point where it's not fun anymore (I'm lazy and I don't want to hold my hands up like I'm gripping a steering wheel for the entirety of a race).
I was really looking forward to motion control games, and while I enjoy my Nintendo Wii occasionally, it's not as great as I expected. It seems there are always going to be a few issues with functionality with motion controls (Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft's motion systems), so maybe the next few years will offer advancement in the technology until the inevitable "next big thing,": Mind Controlled games.
killr0y @ Sep 25th 2009 11:28AM
I love how the haters all try to lock Natal down to one form or another. It never crosses their mind that Natal can be used in purely "party game" fashion for some games, as a passive system for others (imagine playing Forza 3 in cockpit view with a wheel and Natal picking up that your eyes shift up and right, automatically scrolling the cockpit view to the rearview mirror). Or using Natal just for voice commands in a squad-based FPS, etc. Oh no, the hater-ade drinking 'tards automatically jump to the conclusion that Natal will turn everything into Mario Party, because they lack the comprehension necessary to understand a gaming world beyond a pair of analog sticks.
Iridium @ Sep 25th 2009 12:19PM
Natal will not have the resolution reguired to pick up on eye movements to control a camera. If you think that you must be high.
The resolution of Natal's camera will be in the 2-3" range, not the submilimeter range.
Issuing voice commands doesn't need a camera, it's called a microphone. A whole lot of games already use one.
I can imagine a game controller that is directly connected to my brain where I don't need any controller or camera at all. I think it and it happens. Matel made a toy coming out this Christmas where you can move a ball up and down with your mind.
Matel could have made a product vision video like Microsoft showing you controlling your dog with your mind. Hell it's a product vision, not reality.
In reality you can move a ball slightly while concentrating very hard. It is cool but really just a gimmick. You can imagine the future posibilites but the reality is far different. Exactly the same as Natal.
Shagittarius @ Sep 25th 2009 1:10PM
This talk reminds me of my friends talking about the power glove when I was a kid. Don't let your imagination run wild, its not that good.
GiggMan @ Sep 25th 2009 11:06AM
I'm not convinced yet. I like the idea but I wonder what will happen in certain situations. Like I'm 6'4, if I have to get my whole body on the screen I'm going to need to buy another house or stand in the hallway. Every time Natal has been demonstrated that I know of it has been on a big TV set or on a stage not in a living room.
Also I may be wrong again but I haven't seen anything with more than one player at a time. Everyone always takes turns. Could me and my son who is 7 and naturally shorter than me play a game at the same time where both of our bodies have to be scanned (or whatever it does).
These are the type of questions that I hope would get answered soon. (I know there is plenty of time but still... inquiring minds would like to know.) Sony's team seems to demonstrate and address these types or concerns more openly and I hope the Natal camp will do the same.