BBC's 'The Big Questions' tackles Modern Warfare 2
by Ben Gilbert 
{ Nov 16th 2009 at 3:30PM }
"Joseph Goebbels said his entertainment did more for the German people, in terms of creating the psyche for war and hostility towards others, than the speeches of Adolf Hitler ... the idea this is entertainment is not justification whatsoever, " Fazan Mohammed of the British Muslim Forum told viewers. Thankfully, Future Publishing's James Binns kept a level head among knee-jerk claims (unlike that other gentleman). "We can make all entertainment for children, or we can take proper steps to try and protect children from adult entertainment."
So, whaddya say, folks? Modern Warfare 3 with major battles between adorable stuffed pandas and adorable stuffed kodiaks, and when they get shot (with hearts) they explode candy? Where do we sign up?!
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Balloonfighter99 @ Nov 16th 2009 3:37PM
I think Modern Warfare 2 should be given a good spankin and sent to bed without supper. Also it should be shot in the knees and as it crawls away , shot s'more.
Chris D.(PSN: Aggie_CEO | XBL:The Aggie CEO | Steam: Aggie_CEO @ Nov 16th 2009 3:37PM
I don't understand people sometimes.....smh....
With all this I can understand why konami dropped publishing that Fallujah game....CoD is probably the only series that can get away with a modern timed themed war selling millions while catching flack
kojo87 @ Nov 16th 2009 3:56PM
thats the part i don't get. people don't seem to get worked up over the WWII or Vietnam games out there but the second you place a war game in NOW you get this commotion. i have not played MW2 so i don't know how violent it really is but im sure there are more violent games out there.
video games tend to be violent. i thought people would kind of get used that by now but i guess not.
kal326 @ Nov 16th 2009 4:34PM
@kojo87 - Is really quite simple, try to find anybody that doesn't like killing Nazi's. That and their haven't been that many Vietnam games, certainly no where close to the number that are WWII era themed. So killing Nazi's gets WWII games a pass, while Vietnam games fly under the radar.
GuardianLegend @ Nov 16th 2009 9:10PM
99% of German forces you kill in WW2 games are not Nazis, if they are supposed to be representative of the historical reality of the Wehrmacht anyway.
Big_Lozbowski [Planeteer | Power of Shomer Shabbos] @ Nov 16th 2009 3:37PM
I agree that a LOT of movies are more graphic than the airport scene. the issue time and again is the fact the "video Games" are seen as only being played by children. Obviously this stereotype is dated but the "establishment" still has this disjointed view and see that these games are corrupting our youth.
Infinity Ward put an age restriction on the game, put a warning and gave you the option to skip the level if you like. What more can they do?!
Also Quoting Goebbels is a bit much, I'll probably get downvoted for this but the guy was very intelligent. I studied him at college and it was eye opening.
But yeah this argument will go on for ever.
LegendaryRedass @ Nov 16th 2009 4:47PM
I'm more worried about the bullshit on tv corrupting my kids than this game. They can't watch Nick anymore without some claymation hand coming out a kids ass.
Seanross @ Nov 16th 2009 5:17PM
the issue time and again is the fact the "video Games" are seen as only being played by children. Obviously this stereotype is dated but the "establishment" still has this disjointed view and see that these games are corrupting our youth.
I really wish the "establishment" would break out of this way of thinking. It will be years before it ever happens though. I was coming here to make this exact point
Dreaded Fear @ Nov 16th 2009 3:38PM
In case people still don't get it:
A(possible spoilers)
-the scene was a catalyst for the invasion of the US by the Russians, it is needed in the story or else you wouldn't have those awesome set pieces in the US
-you can skip the scene
-it is a video game, a work of fiction
-if you decide to play the scene you don't have to actually shoot any civilians
-if you are playing you can actually go into the menu and skip the scene in the middle of the level
Temidien @ Nov 16th 2009 4:02PM
This.
Steve @ Nov 16th 2009 4:27PM
Thing is though there's two problems with the scene / level:
1) It comes FAR too early in the game. You haven't had any chance to get to know your character or what the heck you're doing. There's no other missions with the terrorist group of lesser impact to let you try and skirt that moral line. There's no time to setup the history of the game world properly and show WHY it's so important that you do this (no, one cutscene isn't enough). Without that background info and attachement the scene is robbed of most of its potential impact. You pretty much go into it with the mentality that it's still a videogame rather than being fully immersed in the game world and the choice (or lack thereof) before you.
2) As a catalyst it makes no sense whatsoever. Your character has NO other distinguishing feature or affiliation than being American. Are we SERIOUSLY supposed to buy that such a flimsy reason would be enough to push an entire country to wage war against the most advanced army in the world? For that matter how does that country wage that war? It seems to be mainly by air so they have very limited troop numbers and decide to drop them in... suburbia?
I've actually traded in MW2 already because the storyline is so ridiculous and so badly presented to the player it failed to hold my interest. And yet it's being presented as this great feat of storytelling and emotional impact but, sorry, judged as a narative it's nowhere near that level.
RKN (Steam ID: nerdydesi) @ Nov 16th 2009 4:42PM
Russia is closer to the West Coast than the East Coast, why attack the latter? Is it because of symbolism of attacking D.C?
El Punisher @ Nov 16th 2009 4:57PM
I saw it as a modern day Cold War fear.
JXCgunrunna @ Nov 16th 2009 5:09PM
SPOILER
1. When did you want to see what caused the war? At the end? Or maybe they should have had the events in Call of Duty 4 take place in MW3.
2. The U.S. attacked 2 countries because of the terrorist attacks on 9/11 so why would one of the most powerful nations with one of the largest populations not attack the US? I mean in real life Russia just pushed into Georgia without even being provoked.
I do not even think you played the campaign because it was not in "suburbia". Those houses were million dollar houses that VIP's lived in and one mission was to find one of the VIP
Sly @ Nov 16th 2009 5:34PM
steve, there's no way you played. they dropped in important parts of virginia, not suburban areas. and they definitely didn't have limited troop numbers. they said they had over 100 troop transport planes. for an invasion of virginia. think about it.
also, you say you don't get to know the character. THAT'S THE POINT. he gets killed off within the first few levels. you find out all you need to know about him before the mission.
and you say there was no time to set up the history of the game world? are you retarded? COD4 did that. this is the SEQUEL TO COD4. if you're playing the campaign, you should already KNOW what the history is.
and lastly, it wasn't the ONLY reason russia decided to attack. didn't you see at the beginning where zakhaev was turned from a killed villain into a russian martyr? and how makarov was using that to get russia mad at the US? makarov orchestrated the whole airport scene (including leaving behind the dead american operative) so that russia would have no choice but to go to war.
Steve @ Nov 16th 2009 5:41PM
@JKC: 1) Okay, I have no idea what you're saying there. What I'm saying is that good storytelling requires you to invest in a character to have an emotional response. This is actually easier in a game because you can both be told a story and take part in it. In order to acomplish this in MW2 with that particular scene they needed another few missions before it to increase the impact of that horrible moment when you realise you have no way out of this AND to better explain why you can't just spray all of your terrorists buddies while you're standing behind them with a full auto. Coincidentaly this would have also extended the single player campaign to a better length than about 6 hours.
2) The US attacked two countries yes, well done, glad you're paying attention. But the first was directly linked to the organisation behind the attacks and the second was presented as being a direct threat. Of those that committed the acts precisely ZERO were from Afghanistan and ZERO were from Iraq. If you want to know one was Egyptian, one Lebanese, Two from the UAE and FIFTEEN from Saudi Arabia. Did the US and its allies go after Saudi Arabia? No. Why? Because it would have been pants-on-head retarded! The explanation offered in game of a few thousands deaths being blamed on America because ONE American was found dead at the scene after taking part in the attacks is stupid beyond belief.
3) To me a couple of restaurauts and a Burger Time = suburbia (and while I was a litle busy running like hell away from and then around big ass armoured vehicles with the aid of smoke grenades I could have sworn those didn't look like million dollar houses to me....) but regardless the point still stands. Why, in the name of all that's holy, do you send your FIRST wave of troops when you have the tactical advantage into a residential area? It doesn't make any sense. If you want a couple more how come the Russians are invading on the EAST coast? How have they got helicopters operating so far from home without a friendly landing strip for refuel and rearm? They took out the American electronic warning systems but what happened to human intel? What about other countries noticing the spinning up of LARGE parts of the Russian airforce and navy. How did they mobilise for a strike on THAT level as quickly as the game suggests? For that mater how did they manage to keep a deployment that large a secret? What's protecting their own borders while they do this because the rest of the world wouldn't be too happy about Russia going off the deep end and at the very least NATO would get involved in a big way. I can go on if you want...
This is the problem with setting a game in the current age and not presenting your story well, it's far too easy to pick holes in it. Do I care about plot holes when playing Halo 3, or even Killzone 2? Nope, because they're Sci-Fi and can be (fairly) safely ignored so long as the story holds together. In the real world games though it's not so easy, especially when you're pitching the strength of the narrative as a big selling point.
As for not playing the campaign... *sigh*, yes I'm going to criticise a game I haven't played or bought because... actually, I can't think why you'd do that. But: screwed up dodging the truck on its return journey on the arctic level (that thing did a handbrake turn or something) and had to run and gun my way out of trouble. Didn't realise I had control at the start of the first Brazil level while sitting in the car and was happily waiting for the computer to duck before my brains sprayed over the dashboard. And had to laugh out loud when the massive explosion that damange the restaurant conveniently left the access ladder and stock of Stinger missiles undamaged to let me kill the helicopter gunship that came looking. Enough for you?
willooi (XBL & PSN: willooi) @ Nov 16th 2009 6:10PM
I totally agree with Steve's comments. And sorry to do this but rather than write a massive comment of my own here, here is a link to something I've written about this topic earlier- http://www.willooi.com/2009/11/modern-warfare-2-a-post-completion-discussion/
All in all I think MW2 is a superb game, I especially loved the sense of awe with the NPCs in the game, but as a narrative it missed a good chance to fully promote gaming as a serious storytelling medium. The airport scene wasn't as shocking as it could or should have been, and it all just happened too quickly for it to make sense.
Bronx514 @ Nov 17th 2009 10:27PM
No mention of the "No Russian" mission. They must have selected the "I'm easily offended" option. Fucking pussies..
Dalrint @ Nov 16th 2009 3:40PM
Until these people realize that it's possible to make video games that aren't for children, this is going to keep hanneing every time a game comes out that isn't for children!
But it's not going to happen. Not until they're dead and gone. My father is 70, he loves watching the Survival Horror games, but almost always says at least once 'I can't believe they make these games for kids.' And it doesn't matter how many times I explain.
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 3:48PM
Thomas Jefferson said the US would have to wait for older generations to die out for slavery to end. And while im certainly not comparing games to slavery, that's pretty much been true for every social issue ever.
Freedom Town @ Nov 16th 2009 4:00PM
@ Dark :
I'm afraid every generation thinks that the older generation needs to go so they can make the World the magical place they think they can. Until they get older, and in turn, become what they said they wouldn't.
Every generation has people who think their idea of how things should be....is how things should be, for everyone. As if their idea of right/wrong is somehow relevant. The next generation will be no better....
Actually, looking at the generation which is now currently in HighSchool/College, I fear it will be worse.
Darth Bradwart, The Dark Lord of the Sith-ATDF Co-Founder @ Nov 16th 2009 4:03PM
Well, if I had anything to say about it, there'd be some serious changes.
bongoes Sector 2814 @ Nov 16th 2009 5:44PM
"Actually, looking at the generation which is now currently in HighSchool/College, I fear it will be worse."
Being in the generation that is now in High School/College, I agree.
Monica Dickey @ Nov 16th 2009 7:42PM
Pretty much. It will just take the generation who grew up with video games as a fact of life to become adults that a new norm will be established here.
I haven't read about it lately but video game ratings are pretty well followed in selling games to age appropriate customers so it's pretty much a non issue, not to mention few very kids can actually pay for their own games and use their folks money anyway. Blah blah we all know the arguments anyways hehe
bumblo @ Nov 16th 2009 3:43PM
But you promised that there wouldn't be anymore MW2 articles for a while Joystiq! You promised!
Ashkental @ Nov 16th 2009 3:58PM
Joystiq: The Blog that never compromises. ever.
yincrash @ Nov 16th 2009 3:44PM
“If you are in that role, which is a terrorist in a game killing other people with massive violence coming back at you on the screen, and [you’re getting a] thrill from that, I think that’s actually sick. We need to sort that out."
It's pretty apparent that none of them has played it. I'm pretty sure that the whole point of being first person in that mission is to see how fucked up geopolitics can be as well as terrorism in general, that they are willing to mow down so many people just to play with chess pieces.
kojo87 @ Nov 16th 2009 4:03PM
people will never think video games have any substance as you are suggesting. they see them as pure mindless entertainment. a movie can have some of the most graphic violence you've ever seen but if it proves a point its ok. (Natural Born Killers comes to mind, mostly because i watched it last week) why can't the same apply to video games?
LaughingMan @ Nov 16th 2009 3:44PM
This is the most idiotic response from that discussion :
TV agony aunt Jennifer Trent-Hughes said that witnessing a video of the airport section made her cry.
“I felt sick to my stomach and I was frightened,” she said. “People are screaming, there’s blood splattering all over the screen. It is absolutely awful. I sat there with my son, who’s 15, and he was like [covers eyes].”
The game clearly is labeled either MA or 18 and above only on the box. Why did she let her son watch a clip from it? Because she assumed that all video games are for kids?
People need to stop treating every video game like a childrens' toy.
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 3:46PM
blood would only splatter on the screen if you got shot! What a noob!
Prof. Von Manifest (aka the caterpillar in your buttermilk) [PSN: Manifest37] @ Nov 16th 2009 3:49PM
What an idiot. It's labeled 17+ & here she goes thinking the game's filled with rainbows & lollipops.
Hyams @ Nov 16th 2009 3:50PM
Gotta love that. Woman shows an 18 rated game to her 15 year old son, then complains that children under the age of 18 have access to 18 rated games.
fred @ Nov 16th 2009 3:46PM
So, whaddya say, folks? Modern Warfare 3 with major battles between adorable stuffed pandas and adorable stuffed kodiaks, and when they get shot (with hearts) they explode candy? Where do we sign up?!
we have halo 3, don't we?
Darth Bradwart, The Dark Lord of the Sith-ATDF Co-Founder @ Nov 16th 2009 3:48PM
Don't even go there. Now you're trolling.
charlie b. @ Nov 16th 2009 5:20PM
I'm of the opinion that you're both trolling.
The discussion here isn't whether you like Halo or not. The discussion is the general public's perception of video games and gamers.
But when so many gamers act like fanboy children the way you do, can you really blame the general public for their skepticism?
Lov3 @ Nov 16th 2009 9:31PM
To be fair, there is that perk in halo 3 where shooting grunts in the head makes confetti fly out everywhere. A bunch of kids even shout 'hooray!' I always switch that one on.
Tucker @ Nov 16th 2009 3:46PM
"We can make all entertainment for children, or we can take proper steps to try and protect children from adult entertainment."
Can we please put this on T-shirts and billboards?
Rudy van DiSarzio, Jazz fusion guitarist. (I go by many names...) @ Nov 16th 2009 3:46PM
Religious leaders should shut the fuck up.
manyquestions @ Nov 16th 2009 4:12PM
So should idiots.
AvA (ice~) @ Nov 16th 2009 3:47PM
It's getting ridiculous with the stereotypes video games are garnering now. The media clearly can't respect them as an art form like they do to movies. They still think they're for children and not for adults. Not many movies get flak for stuff that's 10 times worse than the airport scene. In fact, Infinity Ward gave us the option not to do it...
it was in there for storytelling purposes and it instilled a reaction in me that not many games have, and kind of got me into the story (not saying the story was that great...it was pretty lacking) but all in all it served a purpose. the game is also not available to anyone UNDER 17, SO the parents are at fault if their children under 17 are playing them...
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 3:53PM
the problem is that games arent an art form yet. Not just they aren't considered it, they just aren't yet. I mean somethings are, Okami, Bioshock, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. But come on, in this same game with the airport shooting, there are weed jokes and pictures of scantily clad women, you can't have both. Even some of this generations greatest games that could be considered art are just barely scratching the ceiling. For example, Dragon Age is almost exactly like the book series a song of ice and fire, while Mass Effect is similar to Isaac Asimov's foundation series. We always complain about games not getting the respect they deserve, but when you're playing MW2 and you get killed by xxSmokesMadBluntsxx with his emblem as "Blunt Trauma" or "Joint Strike", think if that really deserves to be called art
Dreaded Fear @ Nov 16th 2009 3:57PM
Wow, Dark Wayne why do you keep bringing up Call signs. They are for FUN. It is in the multiplayer which is completely separate. It is a fun play on word choice. Did you get offended in GTA 4 with all the drugs that were involved as well? Or the multiplayer modes? Do you always just copy whatever people on podcasts say?
It is quite a stretch to bring multiplayer modes that are completely laid back compared to the single player.
Freedom Town @ Nov 16th 2009 4:06PM
Did you just say the multiplayer was 'completely laid back' ?
If there is anything I wouldn't let my future son/daughter play, it is the multiplayer. Well perhaps if I forced them somehow to auto-mute every single person on it.
If you want to see the downfall of the civilized world, personified, join a MW2 multiplayer match. The amount of degenerates, low lifes, and mentally unstable dirtbags that play online FPS/Madden games is frightening.
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 4:06PM
No, they aren't completely separate. They are on the same disc, from the same company and the same gameplay. Sure they might be fun, they might be entertaining, but if people are gonna bitch about games not being recognized as art, you can't have that kind of shit. You can't have your cake and make weed jokes about it too. And to answer your question, no i didnt get offended about drugs in GTA, why? Because the game was ABOUT crime. No one gets pissy about Scarface or the Departed having shitloads of coke and murder, because those films, like GTA, are about the criminal lifestyle and that's part of the subject matter. If GTA had then had a scene about, i dont know, love the earth, be environmentally friendly, that would be just as bad as the call signs because it's completely unrelated and stupid.
WiredKnight: Keeper of Threads @ Nov 16th 2009 4:07PM
Dark Wayne you're missing the point of what makes games art. It has little to do with content. It's about making the whole experience fun/enjoyable. Just that is an art in itself.
And to counter your point about the weed jokes and "scantily clad women." I only need one example, though there are many readily available: Family Guy. Animation is art, you can't deny that. Yes, Family Guy is a comedy, but it has it's serious moments as well. It's a perfect example of exactly why you CAN have both. There are no rules.
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 4:08PM
FreedomTown makes a good point. Artists, authors, critically acclaimed film makers, are usually civilized and educated individuals. When both the audience, and with the arrogance of IW the developers as well, are total shit bags obsessed with hating black people, weed, and tits, it does not make a good case for the art if you hate the artist
The Dark Wayne [Planeteer: Power of the Batusi] ATDFs Financier and Batman @ Nov 16th 2009 4:11PM
@Wired Let's not get into a debate about what makes art,for games or otherwise, because that'll cause a total shitstorm. Suffice to say that while family guy IS art, no one gave the episode where Brian becomes a coke fiend a second thought, they might have tried to be serious but that doesnt mean they were successful
Storm Eagle [Resident Capcom Megafan] @ Nov 16th 2009 4:17PM
I have to go with Bats on this one. I "understand" the Callsigns in the game because I play online and that's the demographic of people who play the game.
"One sec, I gotta smoke this blunt real quick" (Like I give a flying fuck)
But they don't make sense in terms of the game itself. This is a military shooter. Why does my call sign need half naked women or Marijuana Leaves on it? For that matter, why are there race cars? None of it makes any sense.
But like I said, it's catered to that group of people who play the game, and it makes sense only in that context, but does not help the game in terms of presentation.
Dreaded Fear @ Nov 16th 2009 4:29PM
You guys are idiots. Multi-player has no story elements. Single player does. What happens in multiplayer is much different than in single player. I see people tea bagging each other online, I don't see that in singleplayer
In single player they try to make it serious because they have control. If you take multiplayer seriously you need to get outside more. Call signs are for customization, and personalization of the multiplayer, to make you stand out more as a player. In single player you do not need that since you are the only person.
Because you are killing other spartans in Halo means that it ruins or changes anything to do with the single player? No, you are all getting offended for no reason. GTA 4 was a "dramatic" game, in multiplayer you see anything but that.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 16th 2009 4:36PM
I'm with Bats on this one ...
Cinema, literary works, paintings, sculptures etc have been around since antiquity where as gaming is still in a burgeoning stage of development. It's going to take some time before it starts getting acceptance but games like Modern Warfare 2 aren't helping the cause. I say this because what could have been an engaging and moving game about the travesty of war and what it means to civilization gets dilluted when you throw in the drugs, objectifying women and the other over the top situations.
How can you ask others to take you seriously when you don't take yourself seriously? The airport scene could have been a very power and memorable scene of the greater experience but it feels convoluted when you throw in the stuff to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
We don't many games that take themselves seriously. When we do it's extremely refreshing especially when they make you look at the world and yourself differently. Not evert game has to be that way just like not every movie has to be Gone With The Wind, The Wizard Of Oz or Casablanca ... for everyone movie like that there is a Paul Blart Mall Cop. However, in gaming, we have 10 Paul Blart mall cops for every one Casablanca.