Whitten: Xbox Live banning 'a cat and mouse game'
by Richard Mitchell 
{ Nov 20th 2009 at 10:00PM } 
Whitten went on to state his belief that Microsoft does "a really good job" of monitoring the activity on Xbox Live, specifically in terms of piracy and online harassment. He concluded that the company is "committed to making [Xbox Live] better and better."
The interview also covers the recent integration of Facebook on Xbox, the effect Modern Warfare 2 had on Live activity (hint: a big one) and whether or not we'll be playing Facebook games on our consoles anytime soon. Don't expect a straight answer on that last one though, as the closes Whitten gets is, "In the future, they will move much closer together."
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 20th 2009 10:10PM
I heard that because some retailers broke the street date of MW2 in the North Eastern United States that not all of those bannings were from people playing pirated materials. How can they tell the difference? I'd be pissed if I bought the game early at a retailer who broke street date and then got banned for playing a game I legitimately purchased.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 20th 2009 10:12PM
http://360.kombo.com/article.php?artid=17671
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/11/08/select-gamestops-in-ny-oh-and-pa-selling-modern-warfare-2-alrea/
GordoJones @ Nov 20th 2009 10:25PM
There was code in the purposefully leaked version of Modern Warfare 2 that people were downloading that flagged your console as a modded 360 playing pirated software. Absolutely zero people who purchased a retail game early have ever been banned. If your console is not modded, it is not banned. Retail games still have the security in place on the disc, so you cannot possibly be banned.
Caveman @ Nov 20th 2009 10:29PM
Johnny is spreading more FUD.
How quickly you forget August!
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/08/28/halo-3-odst-on-sale-early-in-france-ms-responds/
Same situation, quite a different result than you are making it out to be.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 20th 2009 10:54PM
I'm not spreading FUD I was asking a legitimate question ... how they could tell the difference. GordoJones gave a straight up and legitimate answer. Stop being so sensitive and sensationalist.
Tiptup300 @ Nov 20th 2009 11:34PM
They go to website "x" to download the main seeded copies of the game. They open the game find the ID of that specific copy. Then anyone who uses that exact ID gets banned since each game has it's own individual ID.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 12:24AM
Thank you tiptup for adding more relevant information to the question I posed. That makes the most sense because if multiple copies of the same unique ID coded game are all online simultaneously then it's pretty obvious that it's a piracy issue. Maybe the grumblings I heard were from pirates trying to legitimize their bannings.
Caveman @ Nov 21st 2009 1:02AM
I'm sensationalist?
You "heard" that people were being banned for legitimate copies and how pissed you would be over some fictitious rumor. FUD in its finest.
You forget August. It was the EXACT same situation and banishment did NOT happen.
It's all good though. So far it seems only illegal software users are being banned.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 1:18AM
I never said you ARE a sensationalist in the definitive sense. But, in that situation, yes you were being sensationalist. It was a legitimate question and not something I was stating as fact. For the record YES I did hear that people were getting banned that didn't do anything wrong ... which was the entire reason I posted my initial comment in the first place. I was asking 1. if it were true and 2. how MS can tell the difference. IF it were true I'd be pretty pissed if I were one of those people ... understand? You're just acting all whiny and grumpy because I inadvertently pinged your fanboy IP. You can lower the sword and shield console warrior because there is no battle to be had here.
You've got some kind of hard on for me because your always trying to start shit and be a dick over nothing. If thats how you want to be thats cool but it'd be better if you made your points without purposefully being such an asshole.
I think you're a huge douche but I'm not going out of my way to seek you out just to start shit so it'd be nice if you would reciprocate. Is that OK with you Smoke_Dawg_420?
Entourage @ Nov 20th 2009 10:20PM
I don't many innocent people were affected by this ban wave.
Entourage @ Nov 20th 2009 10:20PM
*doubt*
I shouldn't be typing from angles anymore.. shit sucks.
That Guy @ Nov 20th 2009 10:24PM
Eh bans priates and doubt afraid of anything
Entourage @ Nov 20th 2009 10:26PM
When you say pirate Obama jumps.
Awetoebawt @ Nov 20th 2009 10:33PM
Pirate Pirate Pirate Pirate Pirate Pirate
Caveman @ Nov 20th 2009 10:20PM
You have to PAY to play. Someone is working hard to bring us these wonderful products, and they won't exist if there is no profit.
Entourage @ Nov 20th 2009 10:23PM
Not every game is worth $60. I was just fine w/ the $50 price tag.
I really don't think it's the economy to blame either the company should pay the devs more by default.
Caveman @ Nov 20th 2009 10:26PM
Just because you don't want to pay $60 doesn't mean anyone is entitled to steal the game. Where is the logic in that?
They should be able to charge whatever amount they deem necessary.
You can vote by not paying the $60 price. Buy it used or in the discount bin 6 months from now.
There were 7 million people that gladly shelled out $60 for MW2, games that tank go to the discount bin real quick.
Entourage @ Nov 20th 2009 10:30PM
You're right it's no justification to steel which is why I don't do it. But it remains to be said we're already taxed to the neck for everything, it makes it hard for consumers to digest and take a load off while you're spending allot of money.
Caveman @ Nov 20th 2009 10:34PM
I know what you mean Entourage!
Ken Kutaragi says:
"[PS3 is] for consumers to think to themselves 'I will work more hours to buy one'. We want people to feel that they want it, irrespective of anything else."
RKN (Steam ID: nerdydesi) @ Nov 20th 2009 10:45PM
Of course not every game is worth $60. I was so excited when I heard in 2007 there would be a new Soldier of Fortune game coming out, despite it being developed by a budget studio that made deer hunting games. The game in the end turned out to be utter garbage, it even was categorized into Activision's "Value" brand but yet they charged $60 for it at launch for consoles and $50 for PC. They had a very low budget for the game but charged the same as a full priced game.
Just another reason why Activision is so evil.
el serpiente @ Nov 20th 2009 11:02PM
It never takes long for caveman to lift up his skirt and show us his fangirl panties!
Caveman @ Nov 20th 2009 11:40PM
@ el serpiente,
LOL, too true!
Calling me a fangirl? Takes one to know one!
Pot meet Kettle.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 12:35AM
Ok so the guy in the article said it wasn't 1 MIL people banned but for conversations sake let's say that it's 1/4 of that and 250,000 peoples accounts were banned ... whats stopping those people from trading a banned console in at Gamestop or selling it on e-bay? Then, there would be a huge batch of 360's on the second hand market that would never be able to connect online. You'd also inevitably have some of those people going out and buying a new 360 and potentially another live subscription. Pretty fascinating to look at the situation from those two very distinct perspectives and how it can have an effect on the new and resale market.
In actuality the only console thats not easy to pirate on is the PS3. But, in a sense it can be pirated as well with people "game sharing" even though it's a little different scenario than pirating retail games themselves. Everyone knows the stories of the PSP & DS being a cesspool for piracy and it's becoming more apparent that the 360 & especially the Wii have also succomb to rampant piracy. I guess the fact that the PS3 uses Blu-Ray instead of DVD is really the only reason it hasn't been abused by pirates. The burners & discs are expensive to reproduce unlike DVDs. So, I wouldn't say it's an inherent security feature in BD it's just newer and a little more rare.
Whats the point of saying all that? It's going to go further in ushering an all digital future for gaming that requires an internet connection and authentication to play anything.
Caveman @ Nov 21st 2009 1:10AM
@ Johnny
I recently purchased a LG Super Multi Blu-Ray burner for $200 from Buy.com. It plays both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. They're really not that expensive.
The discs are down to about $5 if you buy them in bulk and online.
I only purchased it because I filmed my friends wedding with my HD Camcorder.
I think AnyDVD can copy Blu-Rays for playback in a file format. http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html
I have not bothered to use this software as I have a very small catalog of Blu-ray movies.
I am surprised there isn't more piracy on the PS3 especially with being able to put in your own HDD. You think that pirated games could be played directly from the HDD of the PS3.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 1:43AM
Yeah thats not that expensive but I think because PS3 has a smaller install base world wide is another reason piracy isn't as big of an issue. I'm not sure if BD can be directly ripped like DVDs (probably) but even so you are talking about at least 25 GB's of data ... in some cases twice that amount. Thats probably one of the main reason why people aren't dumping games to the HDD. For one or two games it doesn't seem like a huge deal but if your talking 5-10 games thats a massive amount of data especially with all the redundancy of data on PS3 games for streaming because of the slower read/seek times. How many do you have to buy in bulk to get the for $5? From what I've seen single discs retail for $20 and packs of 10 BD's go for $140 and it goes up from there.
I think the main factors the PS3 isn't pirated as much as the others is because:
1. lowest install base
2. blu-ray
3. frequent ps3 security updates
4. bd profile revisions / copy protection / drm
Maybe it's also partly the different architecture and the way the system is built but from what I've been able to tell there isn't a consistent method to pirate every game. Some older games can be pirated and burned and some can't.
I'm sure as the PS3 gains more market share and gets more popular it will be something that starts to come up more often. As the guy from MS said it's a constant cat and mouse game. Thats why in the future physical media will be a thing of the past. I'm sure 95% of the people play by the rules but that small percentage that don't take a huge amount of money from the publishers mouth when it's already hard enough to have a profitable game.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 1:45AM
Just to follow up I'm not sure that an actual working mod chip has ever been released. As far as I know you can't simply copy a game and play it in most circumstances.
mahouneko @ Nov 21st 2009 7:16AM
@johnny:
There is a modchip for the PS3 that puts it into service mode. But beyond that, the modchip is essentially useless. A quick Google search of the terms "PS3" and "modchip" gives a list of hits/links to the same story about this new "Belzar" modchip for the PS3. Thing is, with retail PS3 games in the range of 25 GB and up, it's pretty pointless to try to pirate PS3 games.
Not that I'm supporting piracy in any way (I'm against piracy), it's just that Sony has essentially removed the region-lock on PS3 games so there's really no reason for me to mod my PS3 when I can import and play my games without any hassle. Also, you guys are totally missing out on Yakuza 3.
johnnynumber5 @ Nov 21st 2009 2:03PM
@Mah
Dude I've been foaming at the mouth for Yakuza 3 since I downloaded the demo and I've played the first two games. I damn near imported it a few times but after Sega came out and said they were localizing it to release on the North American PSN I decided to hold out. I have played import copies of White Knight Chronicles and Demons Souls in the past. I'll probably import FF13 as well next month.
Pikahunter @ Nov 20th 2009 10:52PM
Some people like to protect their investments. Granted, it's only $60, but with some 360 drive grooving discs making them unplayable, people with kids who, even though we keep do our best to keep it out of reach, still manage to eff up a disc when we're not looking for a second.
And yes, I've had my 360 groove several games to a point where, even with the best disc scratch removal service, rendered it unplayable. Here's another $60 for ya!
How about when games are loaned out to friends. You trust them, yet they either manage to 1. Eff up your game in the same manner as a 9 year old with A.D.H.D would or 2. Trade it in for another game? Yep, happened to me. I had to go get another Halo 3: ODST while my so-called friend was enjoying his newly purchased Tekken 6 with trade ins. He did eventually get another copy for me.
You're right, piracy is bad. But some of us hard-working folk, who go out and buy our games also, would like to protect our investment. Don't call all of us pirates. I worked hard to get MW2, and I'll be dammed if my 360 fux it up again.
Tiptup300 @ Nov 20th 2009 11:37PM
What the hell, wait no, what the fuck are you talking about?
Okay, here's the facts.
You ARE allowed to create a copy of YOUR copy of the game.
You ARE NOT allowed to download another copy of a game even if you own it.
You ARE NOT allowed to play the cloned copy while someone else is using it, (not enforceable, but still a part of the law)
You ARE NOT by the rules of the EULA allowed to play on XBOX LIVE with a modified console.
This is very clear & simple.
Morgon @ Nov 21st 2009 1:02AM
If scratched discs are your only issue, use your favorite search engine to find 'dvd scratch protection' solutions. These things have been around for ages.
Poddie @ Nov 21st 2009 5:13AM
Pikahunter, the software companies cannot be held responsible for your irresponsible children and idiot friend. YOU are supposed to hold them responsible... if they mess it up, they buy it. And if your children are too young to teach that then it's your responsibility to make sure they can't get at the discs.
Tiptup300, it might be that clear and simple if it weren't for DMCA. Look it up... you have much less understanding of your rights than you think.
Tiptup300 @ Nov 21st 2009 2:12PM
No, all these are true rules BASED on the DMCA.
Poddie @ Dec 18th 2009 7:49PM
Tiptup, DMCA prevents you from breaking the encryption on the disc, as well as creating a copy of the disc without this encryption.
What method of backing up the disc do you believe can be used without doing either of these things?
Yeah, I thought so... none. Nice job on your misinformation campaign.
Tiptup300 @ Nov 22nd 2009 1:30AM
The DMCA is not so cut and dry to say that breaking encryption is illegal. Certain methods of breaking the encryption are illegal.
Trey @ Nov 20th 2009 10:55PM
"You people..."?!
HighFiveJesus @ Nov 20th 2009 11:00PM
Did I hear that right, did i hear you sayin, you're gonna make a copy of a game without payin!? Come on GUYS! I thought you knew better.. don't copy that floppy.
fresh new xbox live error message
http://freshxbox.ytmnd.com/
t_m @ Nov 20th 2009 11:13PM
Banning people who pirate games and are abusive = good.
Banning people just for modding the console = not good.
I don't know how well they can tell them apart. Also, are bans per user or per console? Because banning someonw who can just make a new user name isn't very effective (see: Joystiq comments).
Daniel @ Nov 20th 2009 11:32PM
The console is "bricked", while the XBL account remains active in case the person wants to buy a new xbox and keep their achievements and DLC.
Tiptup300 @ Nov 20th 2009 11:38PM
Wrong, the console is not bricked. It just can't connect to xbox live. It pretty much the equivilent of MS tearing the ethernet cord out of your router.
HighFiveJesus @ Nov 20th 2009 11:43PM
people are using a device improperly as the factory settings were not good enough for the individual. Then THE COMPANY decides you no longer have the right to use it and essentially breaks it for you, at your expense.
WHO is really that fucking stupid that they go right out and buy the product AGAIN??? You would think they'd realize that giving Microsoft money for the privilidge to use their xbox once more is not in their best interest. Sell the games, (well, if they paid for them) and try the computer for your modding and pirating.
HighFiveJesus @ Nov 20th 2009 11:44PM
@ tiptup
I hope that's the case, as my assumption sounds like a nightmare.
Morgon @ Nov 21st 2009 1:11AM
To reiterate, bans (of this nature) are per-console. Only that console cannot connect to the Xbox Live service. If you take your HDD/MU with your profile and content and stick it into an unaltered console, your profile will work. Your Xbox Live subscription is still active.
You may need to re-download content to re-auth it on the new machine (DRM - a separate argument, mind you), but none of your data is actually affected.
The point many people are missing (including HighFiveJesus above) is that Xbox Live is *not* the Xbox 360. It's a separate, additional service that Microsoft manages and has every right to control access to. These bans cover features that require Xbox Live in order to function, and therefore make sense that you can't use them on a now-unauthorized console. This does not affect your ability to play discs just like you did in 2005 when the console first launched.
iamnotafish @ Nov 21st 2009 11:31AM
Yup - you can still use the console just fine. For myself, who just used live for updates and once to get the import code for RB1, it really doesn't make a difference. I prefer single player games rather than multiplayer ones. However, for those using Live to play online, it is a whole other kettle of fish.
samfish [don't use jelly, he uses vaseline] @ Nov 20th 2009 11:45PM
Richard Mitchell, your Photoshop abilities are unmatched.
filbertish @ Nov 21st 2009 1:22AM
"[The Pirates] and me have been involved in a delicate game of cat and also cat for years."
Adam @ Nov 21st 2009 2:04AM
"Microsoft does "a really good job" of monitoring the activity on Xbox Live, specifically in terms ... online harassment."
That I don't believe ... the misogynistic and racist comments on most xbox live games are nearly unbearable. If you've ever played when a woman was on you'll know what I mean.
(for anyone who decides to comment, 'then don't play online' ... i don't.)
bluetev @ Nov 21st 2009 7:24AM
You know what, playing on PSN, you realise how much better it would be for mankind if they could just keep their mouths shut if you have nothing useful to say. Most of the time, nobody has mics, and its works pretty well, people do work as a team. But when someone with a mic comes on it often gets pretty annoying, there was one guy on Uncharted 2 coop who kept slagging off a lady player - well guess who had the highest score among the three of us and saved our asses in the last part?
captain underpants and the bringdown gang @ Nov 21st 2009 2:24AM
I know for a fact that Microsoft still bans people who have legitimate software on their modded 360s my friend, had a modded 360, and he bought Modern Warfare 2 (I saw the actual game+ case+ receipt) the day it came out. and was subsequently banned a couple of days later. unfortunately for him his xbox was soft modded (it had legit innards and hard drive)and instead of just banning his gamertag, they banned his console, and his hard drive. so now anytime he saves, his save will be corrupted. it seems like to me that microsoft went too far with his banning. if anything they should have just banned his user name until he proved that he was no longer using modded software.
Poddie @ Nov 21st 2009 5:21AM
Your post makes even less sense than your username, and that's saying something.
AFAIK, they ALWAYS ban the console, not the user. The ban the console because it has been messed with (hardware or software, they may not know and probably don't care). They assume that once it's been messed with, it will always be questionable, even if your friend did happen to mistakenly make an honest purchase of a game for once (my guess is somebody bought it for him not understanding that he typically steals his entertainment).
I have no idea why you would think they are corrupting his save files... I have never heard of them banning a hard drive. I believe you have your "facts" messed up.