Two Swiss humanitarian organizations recently examined 20 shooting-centric video games to determine whether they allowed players to break the wartime guidelines laid out by the Geneva Convention -- rules which prohibit torture, destroying "protected objects" (such as churches or mosques), or, say, shooting a bunch of people who are waiting to catch a plane. The games observed, which include 24: The Game, Call of Duty 4 and 5 (we assume they meant Modern Warfare 2) and Metal Gear Solid, were largely panned for allowing the player to simply ignore the Geneva Convention's statutes.
According to a BBC report on the study, the two groups explained that while players of these titles may never become soldiers, these war crime violations could "influence what people believe war is like and how soldiers conduct themselves in the real world."
In short, you should feel bad about your recent airport murder spree in Modern Warfare 2. Not for the moral implications of killing dozens and dozens of innocent people, mind you -- but because it was against the rules.
Reader Comments (142)
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 12:59PM whylekat said
wow.. There's a 24: The Game video game?!
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 12:59PM aristokrat said
I hate the reasoning that because something is against the rules/law it is wrong. That is putting the cart in front of the horse. If something is generally agreed as wrong, then society makes laws to enforce that idea so that punishment can be meted out in a consistent fashion for the things people have agreed that they don't want to see. If the law is the only thing keeping you in line, then you have some real problems.
The same is true of the Geneva Convention: it was drafted so that international tribunals could act on atrocious acts that occurred during the war. Most people automatically will recoil from things that the Geneva Convention lists as wrong, so it's dumb to say that video games are normalizing them. In the games mentioned (the CoD's and MGS, at least), there are strong statements about normalization of war, manipulation of populations towards war, etc. I'd bet if the study looked for a correlation between admonishment of pro-war attitudes and Geneva violations, they'd find a strong one, but of course that's not what they were looking for. The kind of people who have no problem with the actions in the Convention also don't care at all about the Convention itself and will do whatever they want in order to get what they want.
The same is true of the Geneva Convention: it was drafted so that international tribunals could act on atrocious acts that occurred during the war. Most people automatically will recoil from things that the Geneva Convention lists as wrong, so it's dumb to say that video games are normalizing them. In the games mentioned (the CoD's and MGS, at least), there are strong statements about normalization of war, manipulation of populations towards war, etc. I'd bet if the study looked for a correlation between admonishment of pro-war attitudes and Geneva violations, they'd find a strong one, but of course that's not what they were looking for. The kind of people who have no problem with the actions in the Convention also don't care at all about the Convention itself and will do whatever they want in order to get what they want.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:28PM Dr Perry Ulysses Cox said
It's reminiscent of Uncontrol trying to hijack this thread with his anti-religious inanities...wait a second! It's not like that at all!
Reply
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:00PM Rocketboy said
Hell ya there's a lot of war crimes...
Doubly so when I'm playing...
Doubly so when I'm playing...
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:02PM (Unverified) said
If the President of the United States can violate the Geneva Convention with reckless abandon and not get put in his place I don't think chastising videogames for doing the same is a good use of time.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:06PM Liekos said
I'd be more concerned with the COUNTRIES that violated the Geneva Convention in nearly every war so far than the video games created therein.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:06PM (Unverified) said
Whatever. They obviously missed the part of MW2 right before the airport level where the rangers discuss the rules of engagement and actually pass by some militants they KNOW are going to attack them.
And part of the point of many of these games is that there really are no rules when things become this dire. In a way, these games aren't about warfare. They're about fighting for your life. Those two things are a bit different, and I think gamers definitely get that. At the very least, I'm sure gamers get that they're just playing a game.
And part of the point of many of these games is that there really are no rules when things become this dire. In a way, these games aren't about warfare. They're about fighting for your life. Those two things are a bit different, and I think gamers definitely get that. At the very least, I'm sure gamers get that they're just playing a game.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:37PM kmcroc said
I thought only the military of countries had to obey the rules of the geneva convention,since when did killing fictional peoplein my living room fall under the rules of the geneva act.so sad instead of working on something like try to prevent global warming or some shit ,they are worried about the effect the killing of fictional people will impact those that may never serve a day in any branch of any military or agency.talk about throwing money out the window.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:07PM (Unverified) said
War has changed.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:32PM context said
Seriously joystiq get some journalistic integrity, instead of assuming things.
The research was published in October 2009 and in the research it states: Call of Duty 5 (World at War). Most likely BBC picked up this research because of the recent controversy of modern warfare 2 but it was most certainly not meant in the article.
Here is the pdf of the research:
http://trial-ch.org/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/Evenements_et_manifestations/Playing_by_the_Rule.pdf
The research was published in October 2009 and in the research it states: Call of Duty 5 (World at War). Most likely BBC picked up this research because of the recent controversy of modern warfare 2 but it was most certainly not meant in the article.
Here is the pdf of the research:
http://trial-ch.org/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/Evenements_et_manifestations/Playing_by_the_Rule.pdf
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 3:28PM TheDarkWayne said
they lost integrity because they said the report was from the BBC? Geez asshole, they didnt accept a bribe from the BBC to run the story. I dont think you even know what integrity means
Reply
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:37PM Haggard said
How much did this study cost? How many man hours did it take? Pretty sure they could have actually done some real humanitarian work with it instead..
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:40PM Balindos said
You know I have always defended that it is only a game but MW2 has pushed the envelope a too far. I would defend the game but they are making the game based on current events which I do not agree with at all. I am returning the game based on that and every do as you will but to put something out like that just shows no shame whats so ever. The game portrays a lot of bad things that I could go on about but if you played the game then you should know. The game is too real compared to current events.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:42PM Nook said
Feel that? That's claustrophobia closing in around you. In the not so distant future we'll all be 'permitted' to download UN/ World Government/ Local Union (EU/NAU) approved games, this permission will of course be tied to how many social credits you have ammassed, you know - for doing stuff like conscription (youth brigades), spying on your neighbor and prtomoting the homogenized manner of thinking.
And you'll LOVE it, because the internet will have by then gone to a sub based format like your cable TV - allowing you to only view 'approved' sites (much like China!!! Horray for Dictatorship!!!).
All in the name of promoting equality, justice and freedom for all. Eye of the beholder, do you see what I see?
Moar on topic - they should make some 'terrorists' torture scenes as 'unlockables' - then we can do what they do - and deny it too!!!
when's that truck of soilent green coming again? I'sa hungry!
And you'll LOVE it, because the internet will have by then gone to a sub based format like your cable TV - allowing you to only view 'approved' sites (much like China!!! Horray for Dictatorship!!!).
All in the name of promoting equality, justice and freedom for all. Eye of the beholder, do you see what I see?
Moar on topic - they should make some 'terrorists' torture scenes as 'unlockables' - then we can do what they do - and deny it too!!!
when's that truck of soilent green coming again? I'sa hungry!
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 5:54PM Nook said
That's cool. The Hague is not real. The call to replace the dollar as the world reserve currency isn't real, neither are the implications of that happening. Cheney getting called out to stage a false flag against Iran, not real. The SPP? Not real. MIAC report - not real. DHS; right Wing Extremism...not real either. Project 25, to integrate all North American police together via audio and video - not real.
Neither is - NSSM 200 and it's not real that was passed into policy. It's not true that Israel can keep their nuclear stockpile amounts secret, based on a verbal agreement. START must have been a dream too. Building a New American Century wasn't real either, in that they called out for a 'new Pearl Harbour' - months before 9/11 (and all those people that wrote that....they DIDN'T go into power either).
Patriot Act isn't real, neither is the Military Commisions Act of 2006, renewed by Obama (now MCA 2009) - so it isn't real that you can be spirited away and no one knows what happened. Deploying LRAD technology against the US population isn't real either. Neither is plain clothed police instigating trouble during recent protest in order to shed negative light on the activities of the people, who upon their backs, this system is built on.
Propaganda isn't real either, I mean...you'd know it, right? The National Socialist party tried that shit....and oh yeah...BTW - it's not real that Henry Ford thought Hitler was a good guy, or that the US was selling munitions to the Nazis even after WW2 had been officially declared.
Maybe I should switch foil brands? Or should you open your mind and check some of this out? There are two sides to every story and trust me - your continued support of activities around the world is paramount - so you will be fed what you need to hear in order to keep the machine going, no matter the cost.
After all, we're going to let the future sort it out, eh? Pretty sure when it comes knocking on your door, you'll feel different, when it causes you an inconvenience. In the meantime it is costing others thier lives, but meh - what's the value of a human? If it's not affecting ME????
I just hope some asshole somewhere does launch a nuke, and then we can get to MAD and be done with it all. Those who remain will one day find the Georgia Guidestones.
Reply
Neither is - NSSM 200 and it's not real that was passed into policy. It's not true that Israel can keep their nuclear stockpile amounts secret, based on a verbal agreement. START must have been a dream too. Building a New American Century wasn't real either, in that they called out for a 'new Pearl Harbour' - months before 9/11 (and all those people that wrote that....they DIDN'T go into power either).
Patriot Act isn't real, neither is the Military Commisions Act of 2006, renewed by Obama (now MCA 2009) - so it isn't real that you can be spirited away and no one knows what happened. Deploying LRAD technology against the US population isn't real either. Neither is plain clothed police instigating trouble during recent protest in order to shed negative light on the activities of the people, who upon their backs, this system is built on.
Propaganda isn't real either, I mean...you'd know it, right? The National Socialist party tried that shit....and oh yeah...BTW - it's not real that Henry Ford thought Hitler was a good guy, or that the US was selling munitions to the Nazis even after WW2 had been officially declared.
Maybe I should switch foil brands? Or should you open your mind and check some of this out? There are two sides to every story and trust me - your continued support of activities around the world is paramount - so you will be fed what you need to hear in order to keep the machine going, no matter the cost.
After all, we're going to let the future sort it out, eh? Pretty sure when it comes knocking on your door, you'll feel different, when it causes you an inconvenience. In the meantime it is costing others thier lives, but meh - what's the value of a human? If it's not affecting ME????
I just hope some asshole somewhere does launch a nuke, and then we can get to MAD and be done with it all. Those who remain will one day find the Georgia Guidestones.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:43PM Gonzie said
you try and follow the geneva convention in any of those games and your likely to get shot anyway, blame the developers
I don't know what the deal is examining games like Far Cry 2, it's hardly a war more like a skirmish in an unstable country, shot or be shot jobby
I don't know what the deal is examining games like Far Cry 2, it's hardly a war more like a skirmish in an unstable country, shot or be shot jobby
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 1:58PM ly000001 said
When those groups evaluated MGS, I suspect that they failed to take into consideration that the games impart the important life lessons that love can bloom even on a battlefield, and that it's amazing when the famous purple-stuffed worm with the tuning fork does a raw blink on hara-kiri rock.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 2:12PM Nigeria said
Well, in a world where legislation such as the counter terrorism act is seriously being considered, I wouldn't necessarily brush this report aside as an abject waste of resources.
As the perceived threats grow, government is slowly clamping down on civil liberties and the public is, for the most part, content to have their rights curbed. When questioned, the usual public reaction is not outrage but something along the lines of: 'if I'm innocent, I have nothing to fear.' This attitude gives government carte blanche to do what they want, however they want, by any means necessary. And as one of the author's of the report says (paraphrased):
"It said games were sending an "erroneous" message that conflicts were waged without limits or that anything was acceptable in counter-terrorism operations."
I think this report is more important than our games; it's about an entire shift in attitude; it's about how anything and everything is justified to preserve something akin to freedom.
Also: I feel kinda sorry for the chaps who had to play True Crime Streets of LA.
As the perceived threats grow, government is slowly clamping down on civil liberties and the public is, for the most part, content to have their rights curbed. When questioned, the usual public reaction is not outrage but something along the lines of: 'if I'm innocent, I have nothing to fear.' This attitude gives government carte blanche to do what they want, however they want, by any means necessary. And as one of the author's of the report says (paraphrased):
"It said games were sending an "erroneous" message that conflicts were waged without limits or that anything was acceptable in counter-terrorism operations."
I think this report is more important than our games; it's about an entire shift in attitude; it's about how anything and everything is justified to preserve something akin to freedom.
Also: I feel kinda sorry for the chaps who had to play True Crime Streets of LA.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 2:35PM Nook said
100% right on.
We're living in a truely historic time, I fear we are on the path to Brave New World.
No one speaks up nowadays. time is very short.
Support HR1207, audit then end the fed. Force the hand to be played. Then we can get to real growth and real healing.
Reply
We're living in a truely historic time, I fear we are on the path to Brave New World.
No one speaks up nowadays. time is very short.
Support HR1207, audit then end the fed. Force the hand to be played. Then we can get to real growth and real healing.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 2:23PM (Unverified) said
"Not for the moral implications of killing dozens and dozens of innocent people, mind you -- but because it was against the rules."
Joystiq bloggers seem to reach new levels of bitchiness with every new post...
What you said, idiot, is one in the same...
This site is bullshit.
Joystiq bloggers seem to reach new levels of bitchiness with every new post...
What you said, idiot, is one in the same...
This site is bullshit.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 3:13PM Joeybeast said
In my defense I was trying to shoot at the terrorist.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 3:21PM Misanthropic Gamer said
This just in: academics still don't understand videogames. Film at 11.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 3:25PM TheDarkWayne said
What dont they understand about the game being called Bad Company ffs? It's about a squad that goes AWOL god dammit, they are supposed to be lawbreakers!
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 3:39PM Vcize said
Seriously, Swiss Humanitarian Organizations, that's why the people doing them in videogames are BAD GUYS.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 4:05PM (Unverified) said
I think modern warfare 2 wouldn't fall in that category, as the airport scene is [SPOILER ALERT] played not by soldiers, but by terrorists [END OF SPOILER ALERT]
However, if you played as an american soldier and were put in a situation where you see all of your brothers in arms shooting women in the face and torturing children to get information from their father, knowing that the US army uses MW games to hire new soldiers, this could effectively "influence what people believe war is like and how soldiers conduct themselves in the real world." It wouldn't hurt anybody to show in a video game american soldiers who actually respect the Geneva conventions.
Though I love video games, it is worth noting.
However, if you played as an american soldier and were put in a situation where you see all of your brothers in arms shooting women in the face and torturing children to get information from their father, knowing that the US army uses MW games to hire new soldiers, this could effectively "influence what people believe war is like and how soldiers conduct themselves in the real world." It wouldn't hurt anybody to show in a video game american soldiers who actually respect the Geneva conventions.
Though I love video games, it is worth noting.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 4:10PM kill8joy said
Stop fighting in real wars.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 4:20PM Spiritof said
I've got to think that if we shoved the Swiss in a church, let a random terrorist group take over that church, then let random terrorist group systematically kill them one by one, no one's last words would be, "Well at least the Geneva Convention wasn't compromised".
I swear, the Geneva Convention pot hole is misused almost as much as Freedom of Speech.
I swear, the Geneva Convention pot hole is misused almost as much as Freedom of Speech.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 5:21PM TRONdll said
I'm pretty sure he meant World at War by "5"
"Show them the art of mercy killing, Dimitri!"
"Show them the art of mercy killing, Dimitri!"
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 6:36PM SnatchTease said
Are you kidding, I could think of at the very least 20 games that are pure torture to play.
Posted: Nov 24th 2009 7:30PM Seshan said
So did hijacking 4 airliners and crashing 3 into building fall under the guidelines laid out by the Geneva Convention?
Posted: Nov 25th 2009 2:07PM (Unverified) said
I made a Geneva Convention on your mother face.. Go make me a Swiss knife.
Posted: Nov 25th 2009 11:03PM (Unverified) said
What's funny is that wars have been won by countries such as, say, America by laughing in the face of the established rules.
At the time of the American Revolution, we cheated by utilizing guerrilla warfare and not lining up in pretty little lines.
In the Civil War, Sherman enacted Total War, and I'm pretty sure that most of his tactics would be considered "cheating" even today.
At the time of the American Revolution, we cheated by utilizing guerrilla warfare and not lining up in pretty little lines.
In the Civil War, Sherman enacted Total War, and I'm pretty sure that most of his tactics would be considered "cheating" even today.
Posted: Nov 27th 2009 9:51AM (Unverified) said
Well, in reality, war is conducted in a more savage manner. I think these bodies need to draw their attention to actual war crimes instead of squandering resources on how games alter our perception of war.
For example, Metal Gear Solid's narrative takes the player on a journey (throughout the series) that paints of picture of how the privatisation of warfare has a detrimental impact on our humanity. So, the issue is really one of a bunch jobless academics who do not seem to engage with the entire experience and critically analyse a few games.
I'm not saying that every person will enter this level of depth when playing one of these games and come to an ultimate realisation of the 'message' of each game. The other side of the coin is that not every person will realise what they're actually doing is wrong in the moral sense, let alone against the Geneva convention.When's the last time you read about Robert Mugabe fraggin' on COD.
Word to the Swiss bodies next time you decide to hit up Joystiq: Worry more about white phosphorus being used on civilians.
For example, Metal Gear Solid's narrative takes the player on a journey (throughout the series) that paints of picture of how the privatisation of warfare has a detrimental impact on our humanity. So, the issue is really one of a bunch jobless academics who do not seem to engage with the entire experience and critically analyse a few games.
I'm not saying that every person will enter this level of depth when playing one of these games and come to an ultimate realisation of the 'message' of each game. The other side of the coin is that not every person will realise what they're actually doing is wrong in the moral sense, let alone against the Geneva convention.When's the last time you read about Robert Mugabe fraggin' on COD.
Word to the Swiss bodies next time you decide to hit up Joystiq: Worry more about white phosphorus being used on civilians.
Posted: Dec 3rd 2009 1:13AM (Unverified) said
Yeah, gamers probably will think it's ok to do things that are no-no's according to the Geneva Convention.
If they're normal human beings and they are TAUGHT the rules, they may follow them if they happen to end up in a wartime situation. If they're not normal human beings, then video games that allow them to commit warcrimes aren't going to help them.
All I'm saying is, Hitler didn't have an XBox.
If they're normal human beings and they are TAUGHT the rules, they may follow them if they happen to end up in a wartime situation. If they're not normal human beings, then video games that allow them to commit warcrimes aren't going to help them.
All I'm saying is, Hitler didn't have an XBox.
Featured Stories
Super Joystiq Podcast 004: 38 Studios meltdown, Gravity Rush, Civilization 5: Gods & Kings, Dragon's Dogma
Posted on May 25th 2012 3:30PM






