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Reader Comments (26)

Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:06AM wolf4537 said

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Why does this stuff have to go this far? I mean just let the people who bought the machine do whatever they want with it.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:07AM I AM IRONHIDE said

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It's in the quarters, dude.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 4:57PM henrycabendick said

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Perhaps developers hate freedom slash slash freewill .. LOL
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:13AM Rengozu said

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Wonder how this could effect certain events like Rock Band bar nights across the US

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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:40AM vidguy said

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If ASCAP or BMI could legitimately have a right to fees, the bar events would probably stop. The events probably don't bring in enough extra cash to cover the fees for large blanket licenses.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:18AM Jawmuncher said

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If you have to actually play the song.
It ain't a damn jukebox
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 9:16AM (Unverified) said

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True, but for the most part the song is there and can be heard in entirety if you play through correctly. On easy, that wouldn't be difficult at all.

I think this litigation is a legitimate claim. In 10 years, what will be the relationship between the Rock Band DLC tracks and the owners? These kinds of things are important to think about before there are serious problems with license issues.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:29AM Hivetyrant said

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My old iPod is box shaped and plays music, I guess they'll be after Apple now too?
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 2:04AM dartmerc said

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No, they'll be after you, if you use it to play music for the public.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:30PM (Unverified) said

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Apple pays their distribution fees, I'm sure.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:40AM (Unverified) said

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Is it like this for Karaoke too? That's a similar setup... the music plays and a regular person sings the lyrics. If royalties ARE paid for that, they should be paid to the band and not the lead singer if the case is like that (for stuff like Madonna etc. She doesnt play any of the music, and she's not singing during Karaoke, so why should she get paid for it?)
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:42AM vidguy said

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The copyright owner gets paid, because one of the exclusive rights that copyright provides is public performance. Often, the owner is the record company, NOT the artist/band. Bands get paid primarily through contracts, not licensing.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:39AM vidguy said

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This may not be a problem for much longer. I wouldn't be surprised if the Google Books case gets appealed to the Supreme Court, and the Court might take a significant look at the potential anti-trust problems that have been lurking ever since ASCAP and BMI went under consent orders. Blanket licensing could disappear pretty quickly.

Honestly, though, it's a very weird scenario. The blanket licenses are usually purchased for public performance of songs for listening enjoyment by many. GH and RB are played for the interactive experience - the music matters, but no one sets up the game primarily as a music source. I think they have a very slim chance of actually convincing a court of their claim to licensing fees.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:52AM vidguy said

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Scratch that, the GB case is settling. A lot of the talk is about the problem with the blanket licensing fees, though, so the Court could still challenge it if it ever gets a chance to grant cert in a similar case.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 2:11AM (Unverified) said

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OK, I think that there is a rather large misunderstanding over the difference between sync rights and performance rights. You are correct that a public establishment needs to obtain a blanket license from the Performance Rights Organizations (ASCAP, BMI and SESAC in the US) to play music by their members. Considering that this covers ANY rendition of the music in question, including when some shitty cover band takes a request for Free Bird and doesn't sound at all like Lynyrd Skynrd, I would venture to say that playing games like Rock Band in a public venue are not in any kind of gray area, and are absolutely subject to the licenses. Where you are factually incorrect, however, is in your suggestion that you can use a blanket license from the PROs to license music for inclusion in a film, TV or game. Since I assume that you're speaking about the original recordings, this is false. You need to obtain sync rights from the copyright owner of the master recording to use a song with any kind of video. Yes, tracking down every artist for every song in a film or tv show does sound like a labor intensive process, and yes, that's why music supervisors get paid a lot of money. :) This is why you hear Beatles songs on the radio (which pays Apple Records for the performance rights through BMI) but you don't hear them in commercials, because they refuse to license them. You can do cover versions, of course, and for this you pay the PROs which then distribute the money to their members.

As far as what kind of contracts artists are signing for Rock Band; if the original song is in Rock Band, it's almost certainly a non-exclusive license (not a buyout) that covers every possible in-game use that could possibly exist. There can't be any distinction between public and private usage because terms would have to be the same across the board, and that's not really a distinction that is made anyway. The only differences between artists would be that Nirvana is making ten bazillion dollars for their license deal while some no-name indie band probably makes a couple grand. So, your point about ASCAP having or not having "claims" against public use is misguided. They don't dictate what can or can't be played in public, they only collect money for what does get played in public. In other words, they won't go to some bar and say "you're not allowed to have this Rock Band arcade game," they'll go there and say "you're playing music by ASCAP members, so you need to pay the blanket license that allows you to do so." They WANT their music to be played in public - they are a non-profit organization that exists solely for the purpose of collecting royalties for their members. They just want people to actually pay the royalties that they owe.

The discrepancies, anyway, are between sync rights and performance rights, and song copyright and master recording copyright. Also, the PROs really get kind of a bad rap. When some rhythm game comes out and does their own version of 20 songs, it's easier for them to pay royalties to three companies instead of 20 artists. It makes a lot of sense really.

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, but I do make my living writing music for film, tv and commercials, so I am familiar with entertainment law as it pertains to music. I've only ever been involved in one video game, which licensed a song from a band I played in. It was a non-exclusive license, and the fee was about two grand... I don't think we ever saw anything for it from ASCAP. Personally I think the claims the PROs are making are pretty reasonable, since games absolutely provide a recognizable rendition of the original song, which you have to remember is the only criterion.

just thought i'd chime in... :)
p.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 11:16AM MarkMethenitis said

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Patrick,

You're correct to an extent, and that's part of why this is nebulous. I haven't actually played Guitar Hero Arcade (I own the home versions), so I'm not certain whether this includes the cover tracks from the earlier games or the actual licensed tracks from the newer games. And I wasn't able to find a clear answer online to that question either.

However, if you visit the ASCAP site, you'll note that they do license downstream to TV (broadcast and cable), film, and new media...to the extend these are not sync rights. I should have explained that better.

However, to the extent there is a direct license for an original track to an arcade unit, that license should specify any public performance rights because of the nature of the machine. Arcade operators have a legitimate gripe if they are otherwise not utilizing any ASCAP license that this one machine with limited application as a jukebox would require one, especially given that ASCAP does not have a license specific to this kind of application (whereas they do for others). You'll also note this was never even at issue with DDR or other Japanese games.
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Posted: Dec 30th 2009 10:18AM (Unverified) said

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There are licenses necessary for the composition as well as licenses necessary for the recording of the composition. These are completely different and the rights to these are often owned by different parties.

Further, the term "synch license" applies to the composition. To use a master recording, you need a master use license.

Further, the owner of master recordings is not entitled to payment for the playing of the recording on terrestrial radio stations (to the contrary when it comes to Internet radio). Only the owner of the public performance rights in the composition are entitled to such payments.

I practice law in the music business and have been for nearly 37 years, back when there actually were "records." :-)

You can read an article on my site called "The Use of Music on Multimedia Web Sites" which covers much of this. www.ivanhoffman.com. Click on "Articles for Recording Artists, Song Writers, Actors and Entertainers."
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 3:09AM Shiaoran said

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These games are as much like jukeboxes as GTA trains people to murder and steal cars.
Ok, bad example for those anti-games fucktards.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 4:01AM SitriStahl said

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music games are pretty much puzzle games synced up with a song
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 11:59AM (Unverified) said

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It doesn't matter. You can't just use people's work in this way and not pay them. It shouldn't impact the end user any more than the soundtrack of a movie impacts the end user though. They just need to come up with a way to make sure Activision and Harmonix make sure the artists who wrote the music on their games are fairly compensated.

For every multi-millionaire artists, there are hundreds of lesser paid songwriters who rely on these kinds of royalties. (For instance, look at the tragedy of Vic Chesnutt... an amazing songwriter who couldn't pay his medical bills).
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 4:15AM Shiaoran said

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That we all know... Except people who buy GH to learn how to play guitar :P
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 11:16AM Shay3838 said

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Huh, I didn't know about any of this shit. And I say 'shit' because it IS shit, pardon my language.

I find it really unsettling that you can't just buy music. "Oh, great, you bought our music!"
"Of course, I love your stuff, I'll just pop this in here-"
"wait, what are you doing?"
"Why, trying to listen to this music at work of course, isn't that the point?"
"Oh ho ho, sorry buddy, but that music is for your ears only. You need to pay us even MORE money, WAAAAAY more money, just to even THINK about letting another pair of ears listen to our music that will be forgotten within the next decade."
"So, when I pay you for a CD, what am I getting?"
"Only the right to listen to it privately due to the fact that other usage is licensed on a case by case basis."
"Ah huh. Why's that?"
"You might play it in a bar we don't like. We don't want to seem like we're supporting any of those establishments we've never heard of, unless they pay us of course, and through legal shenanigans we can argue that playing music attracts customers which is a commercial venture that our efforts should be paid for. We make a LOT more money with lawsuits and legal trickery than honest hard work."

And these artists wonder why people pirate their music.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:27PM (Unverified) said

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That's a bit of hyperbole. Which I can appreciate. But its a mischaracterization. Nothing stops you from playing a CD for your friends or family on a picnic in the park, or at work, or at your cousin's bar mitzvah.

And if it was that way, then yeah, pirate-a-fuckin-way. But for every one Lars Ulrich just being a greedy douchebag to the fanbase that made him, there are a hundred low paid songwriters whose work is making Harmonix and Activision a bunch of money every time someone picks up Rock Band 75 for that rare, distributed-to-family-only b-side of John Lennon singing Studdly McDiddlehopper's "I got the my knees are broken blues". The real Studdly McDiddlehopper (not a real person) has two broken knees, lives in a shack outside Tuscaloosa and lives on the $57 a month he gets in royalties from his three songs.
That's hyperbole too, but that is more the situation that organizations like ASCAP exist to alleviate.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 1:32PM vidguy said

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You never buy music. You are only purchasing the property rights to the physical media (CD, MP3 file, etc) and have only a license to the music. That license is also subject to the restrictions of copyright law. Same goes for movies, software (EULAs), and other forms of IP. This is pretty much the definition of intellectual property.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:12PM Drakkenfyre said

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I didn't even know Guitar Hero existed as an arcade game. I can see their point, tho.
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Posted: Dec 29th 2009 12:56PM MNeko said

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Sounds like a battle of who can oink the loudest.
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