Source: Max Payne 3 development allegedly also suffering from mismanagement

Sell their stock? And do what, rely on 2K games?!? Rockstar is all Take-Two has right now...

Ok Skeet, I'm trying to make sense of your logic, but I'm starting to suspect that you are confusing buying with selling.

Selling stock would mean cutting your losses and getting out before things degrade even more. Your argument seems to contradict itself.

Also, "Ok, skeet." That's what she said. I have the humor of a ten-year-old.

Why lol?
Not understanding the humor. Because someone was stupid enough o buy the stock? Are we laughing at their stupidity or misfortune?
I'll choose neither.
Now for stupid misplaced....lol!

Yeah, not to toot my own horn, but this is starting to sound like a lot of whining from some disgruntled employees. My first job out of college was for an internet development company, before the internet was really developed. On at least two projects, I never went home - not once - for 3 months. Now, I worked in NYC, and I did get out of the office on occasion. Those occasions were: to shower at the gym downstairs in the morning and to have a beer or two each night at the bar across the street. And ya know what? I absolutely LOVED my job. I couldn't do that forever, but I worked with that company for five years and LOVED it.

I just ended a six-month stint on a job here in DC that had me working at least 14-16 hour days, at least 6 days a week, and it was one of the best and most rewarding experiences I've ever had.

So I'm thinking these people need to get real. If those are the realities of the job, and you don't like it, leave. I'm sure there are tons of hungry, energized young programmers and designers who'd love the experience and wouldn't blink an eye at the demands of the work.

@Jomolungma

You said it yourself, you couldn't do that forever. Most people will burn out with those kinds of hours. And let's also be clear here that it's not just the long hours. These guys are working hard to produce a product only to have people that haven't bothered to give a shit for several months swoop in and demand sweeping changes... yet still expect the completion date. In other words, these guys are being forced into an extended crunch time because the higher ups couldn't be bothered to do their end of the bargain in a timely manner.

Did you even read the previous article about Red Dead Redemption? Rockstar's mismanagement has now put that project into a position where it will likely lose money. This issues clearly goes deeper than employees whining about hours, management is driving their various studios into the ground.

I don't think you know what "mis-management" means Jomolungma.

@Jomolungma
No offence intended, but I assume you don't have a partner or kids? I can imagine someone with no social life being a great coder but I can't imagine that they create great products.

First, I'm not convinced it's mismanagement. It very well may be, but I can get pissed off at my boss, walk out and email someone that the place is horribly mismanaged and start a rumor myself. It's not hard to do. Now, for sure, there seems to be more to it at R* these days, but that was the point I made at the end - if people are fed up, leave. Some already have, and they aren't shy about telling the world about it. But ya know what - those offices still exist, so someone must be ok with it. And if they weren't, their are a lot of starving game designers out there these days that would GLADLY jump into their shoes.

Also, I speak from some experience here. I did play a role not too unlike a producer or project manager at a game development company. Shit happens. There are better ways of dealing with it than others, and there are ways to get your people to buy in to what has to be done. Maybe the managers at R* are just not good at their jobs. But the reality is, in any development of this type - game, internet, film, music - there are crunch periods. They are sometimes driven by changes in marketing, changes in business goals, or changes in design. Nothing ever goes perfectly. It's a reality that you just have to deal with sometimes.

Actually, I can think of probably one studio that never had a crunch period. It's a studio where I'm sure everyone loved to come to work each day, loved their bosses and managers, and thought they really had the keys to success. They were called 3D Realms, worked on the same game for over 10 years, and now they don't exist.

@xbit

Actually, I am happily married and have a new baby boy. You know what I did? I didn't have that baby until I knew I was in a position professionally to work the way I wanted to, and I married a woman who is highly supportive of my career choices and is making the journey with me hand-in-hand. While my current job may take me on the road for extended periods of time, and it's something I do not look forward to, I took my position with eyes wide open and completely aware of the demands it might make of my time, and after consulting my wife. If it ever gets to the point where I'm having to sacrifice more of my family time than I'm comfortable with, or my wife feels like we need to go in a new direction, I'll walk away.

I don't expect everyone to follow my lead, or agree with the choices I've made. But I tend not to make decisions blindly, and when I make a bad one I don't cry out to the world for sympathy.

You still don't seem to get it. Yes, crunch periods are normal for this type of work. But when you have continual crunch periods and missed due dates because upper management is making a cluster fuck of the project that's clearly different. And when you reach the point where you're now expected to lose money on a game that is fairly anticipated by the public you have serious problems.

"And if they weren't, their are a lot of starving game designers out there these days that would GLADLY jump into their shoes."

Frankly, this is just stupid. Yes, there are always going to be people willing to take your job, especially in this economy. But how does that excuse mismanagement and projects losing money as a result? Also, it takes even more money and time to bring new people up to speed. And where are left when they burn out and leave too? Eventually your product and company is going to suffer... as we're seeing here. Just saying, "well, someone else will be glad to take your job" doesn't solve a damn thing. It's just sweeping the issue under the rug.

Jomolungma: the reason why there are still companies with shitty work conditions. Sheep like him, who accept this crap, and yet defend their corporate overlords.

@Vidikron

Trust me, I get it. I'd rather not go into the how or why of "I get it," but I get it. First, I reiterate - I don't know firsthand that these reports of mismanagement are true. No deadlines that I, as a consumer, have been made aware of have been missed. Games get pushed back all the time, for a lot more benevolent reasons than mismanagement, so even if MP3 or RDR did miss a reported release date, I still wouldn't be convinced of it. Now, the evidence is mounting, but it's from a pissed off spouse and some anonymous former employees. If the entire studio walked out in protest, or someone won a lawsuit, or senior middle management was fired and someone apologized to all the suffering employees, I might be more convinced.

Also, what type of mismanagement? Is this mismanagement, or poor design? Is it that the project manager can't make a work schedule to save his ass, or is it the lead designer can't decide if he likes blue or pink for the characters' pants? Is it that the information architect can't design a schematic to save her butt, or that some dumbass in marketing can't decide if the game should be an RPG or a 1st person shooter? (Read Microserfs, and other great fiction and non-fiction titles, for hilarious examples). Is it the lead programmer that can't delegate effectively, or is it the creative director who can't decide whether there should be unlimited saves, checkpoints, or three lives and a replay button? All of these issues can lead to delays, "crunch time," weekend work, and so forth. Not all of it is the same type of "mismanagement." We should probably know who we are vilifying before we dip our pens in blood.

But let's just say it is mismanagement, of the worst kind. Completely inept dolts pushing random buttons, reading management technique handbooks in the bathroom and then going out and trying out new experiments on their underpaid and overworked lab rats - just the worst managers you can think of. Why do we care? I mean, you use the language "does this excuse." Excuse for whom? I'm not concerned one lick about the managment practices of R* or any other company. Nobody has to excuse anything to me. It might make a difference if I worked somewhere, but that's between me and my managers, not me and the Internet, and certainly not anyone else and my managers - like us talking heads. And you rightly say that eventually the company will suffer, but who cares about that either? In this instance, it might hurt my chances at playing RDR, but that's about it. It will definitely make some people unemployed, and that's a damn shame (I've been laid off twice and it really really sucked), but aside from a general unease about the state of employment, and perhaps some deep-seated socialist or communist leanings in my species that make me question the capitalist churn, I don't really care all that much.

The reality is that it's not my job to tell R* how to manage its staff - it has turned out some pretty amazing games using the techniques that we are all calling into question. The reality is that someone WILL step in and take that programming job, without question, bad managers and all. Our continued chit chat about how evil R* is and how sympathetic their workers are doesn't really change anything, and is just a way for me to pass the time until I have to walk my dog - which is now actually, so ta ta.

Jomolungma, thanks for your insight.

People derive satisfaction out of their jobs (and lives) in different ways. Over time those ways change, and as long as you change with it, there's no problem. What Jomolungma does may not work for you, but that absolutely no reason to bash him.

This is the reason I left the game industry, I'm not going to work for someone who doesn't respect me. I since started working for an ad company and I can tell you it pays better and they respect my hours.

I don't know the whole story, none of us do.

But being a creative professional is a lot different than most professions. It's similar to sports in that most of us have had a passion for it since we were young and we have loved it throughout our lives. And most people get into it professionally because they love it, regardless of the money.

That being said, more often than not the people that do pay us know nothing about art but sometimes they want to make changes because they want to make sales. And more often than not, they know how to do it. Sometimes those changes are untimely and absurd, sometimes they are very very valid.

When you mix these two types of people you get situations like this. This is not uncommon, but a good art director or manager knows to compromise and let his designers and devlopers win a few battles along the way. To me this sounds like managment has forgotten about that. but again we don't know the whole story, maybe they had valid reasons for their changes and for people to keep their jobs they are being forced into working long hours to put out a good product.

"It looks like there are some serious management problems at Rockstar"

No shit, Sherlock.

Jeez, Mystile. Short on chocolate again?

See, that what happens when Mystile doesn't get his daily dose of chocolate: he goes ball-shit crazy on you!

"Mark my words"

Really?

If you've got two of Rockstar's biggest studios saying there are problems, then you look at the delays Rockstar North had in getting the GTAIV DLC out, in addition to the delays in the main game...yeah, it's a pretty safe bet.

I think he was talking more about your choice of words, Monarch.

I'm kind of starting to get why people find it annoying that you post so much. It isn't the fact you post a ton, it's the fact you point out the obvious in many of your posts. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have some good points, but you have to sort out 70% of bullshit posts first.

Well excuse me, O Mighty Mystile. Heaven forbid we don't all meet your posting standards.

I do find it funny how no one bothered to answer my question. Instead, you were too busy being snarky to consider the implications of how far the issues go.

Who's qualified to answer that question? One would think Joystiq were lucky that so many anonymous employees came forward to them, it's asking a bit much for them to reply directly to you.

It's a hypothetical. Make a damn guess.

I'm with Mystile on this you're just annoying now.

It's quite clear that Take Two interactive is on the verge of implosion. My sources tell me that executives are bolstered in their conference rooms as I type this, under threat of an unwieldy mob of employees from every Take Two subsidiary. Time will only tell what will become of the situation.

That's as good an answer as you'll get with that attitude mister.

I don't think I've ever seen a site with so many arrogant commenters. Even Kotaku isn't this bad.

Not everyone has the time to make up total bullshit "answers" that you do. If the Joystiq staff -- who have connections/contacts in the industry -- can't answer it, then how do you expect us gamers to?

I wouldn't expect an answer from a troll like you.

lol, you would know about trolling since you do it so much. All you are doing right now is proving everyone's point: off-topic posts, starting or adding to flame wars, etc...

lol, Bradwart The Echidna really wants to get those last words in. It's not helping his case. Like... at all.

Someone new to the internet might just think you live here, Bradwurst.

Knuckles is a troll who likes to dig a hole......and he wants to eat your soul!!!

Just needed to get that off my back :D

"What I'd like to know is if it's just a Rockstar problem, or if it extends clear up to the heads at Take Two?"

Sounds more like a rhetorical question, but just to prove it can be answered by the people it was posed to, I'll bite. (Granted I haven't been keeping up on the situation at Rockstar, so this won't be anywhere near as insightful as if someone else had just given him a real reply).

While there were a lot of poor choices made when it came to GTA4's DLC, I'd like to believe that they learned their lesson on that one and that management over there also saw the problem there. They've also still been rather successful as a studio with GTA4, Chinatown Wars, and most of the GTA4 DLC.

I imagine that Take-Two Interactive is actually watching over the situation and actively looking for a way to remedy any potential problems that may arise. Wasn't it EA who was accused of having shitty work conditions just a few years back, only to do a turn around?

The management may suck at either company right now, but the second the games start to show the signs of bad management and rushed developers, you'll probably see shareholders, CEOs, and other people with invested money start to complain.

My guess is that things will still be shitty for another year or two, but the second the real investors start to complain is when Take-Two, or Rockstar Games, will start to take notice of the situation. Besides, Take-Two is probably busy enough managing all the other studios and projects they have. This could just be an issue they are hoping blows over on it's own.

I enjoyed GTA: IV. A lot more than GTA:SA especially after playing the DLC. I just think peoples expectations were too high with GTA:IV. Even though it's one of the most intricate games out I don't think anyone appreciates the true complexity of the game just because there's more to do in GTA:SA.

Rockstar could've easily made a game like Saints Row 2/GTA: SA over again but they made something that set the bar for next-gen games that came after it.

My expectation was that GTA4 would be as fun as GTA: San Andreas - it wasn't.

This, though, wouldn't happen in SA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZcaRzpu5SA

The DLC made it pretty fun, although I haven't actually owned it myself just played it.

Hopefully GTA 5 isn't in such a built up setting.

Also, San Andreas' awesomeness can be summed up like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlzJU1JjMVk

EA Spouse was 5 years ago. The conditions have improved at EA somewhat, though "unofficially" it looked bad if you were working less than 60 hrs/week... still not a bad place to work at if you enjoy working on games (and not much else).

T2 is another story...

Holy shitballs I love your avatar! boogada boogada boogada was the best Screeching Weasel album ever!