Japanese gamers split on subtitles vs. dubs for Western games

Lip syncing means very, very little in anime. Anime tends to just animate the mouths opening and closing. You don't usually see that done in eastern animation. They tend to just sort of roughly time the animation sequence with the audio start and stop points.
Western animation tends to be more careful with the mouths, though.
Point is, lip syncing doesn't really account for much when you're basically working off of 3-5 frames of animation. As long as the voice actors time their lines right, you aren't going to notice syncing problems.

I remember hearing about Evangelion fans who thought they could figure out Gendo's muted line in "The End of Evangelion" by reading the lip flaps. (It was funny.)
It's a common misconception by anime fans that the lip flaps specifically match the dialogue, as is typically the case with Western animation. Most of the time - unless we're talking about "Akira", which was a rare case of an anime that was specifically animated to match the voice recordings - lip flaps are just animated to generally match the dialogue detailed in the script, and the voices are recorded separately. At least that's my understanding of how this process works. The process and practice of animation and voice acting is very different in Japan than it is in the US or Europe.

When I first saw Akira in Japanese, I was quite surprised to see that the lip flaps matched the audio. I had originally seen the film with the Streamline dub, so having the flaps match was a pleasant surprise. I was also surprised that the subtitles made so much more sense than Streamline's script. Now that my Japanese is a lot better than it was during either of those viewings, I should rewatch the Japanese and see how accurate the subtitles were (I note that I recently saw a fansub of an anime episode where it seriously seemed like the translator had just made up lines, as the screen text was often *absolutely* not what the voice had said, not even figuratively, not even through a "language barrier," and made no sense in context anyway).

Regarding voice recording methods, for anime, the Japanese voice actors record in a group in front of preliminary footage on a screen. I don't know if lip flaps are already present in this footage, but voice actor anecdotes prove that, at least sometimes, it's not in color yet. In Western anime dubbing, of course, the final footage is already onscreen, but the actors record alone, at different times. In Western animation, everything I have seen (generally CGI films) has the actors recording with no footage, sometimes in groups.

@Killdash:

You should check out the Geneon dub as well, it's surprisingly good; I've seen both versions, and while my Japanese is nothing even close to fluent, I actually thought the '01 dub was superior. It also featured a very good performance by Johnny Yong Bosch back from before he was in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.

@samfish
very very true. However, actors simply cant say their lines willy-nilly. If they acted with no regard to how the opening and closing of the mouth is being moved, then you'll get things like words coming out of closed mouths, or no words coming out of open mouths. Also it depends on the anime too, some anime have very expressive mouth movements and facial features, and an actor has to speak to match that. Then again, there are many anime series that have simplistic mouth movements, that does make it easier because it aleaviates that pressure to speak in sync.

@Delphenus
I agree with you as well. Emotion is the key to delivering believable lines. But it becomes very difficult to inject emotion into your acting if you have to try to match your dialog to the lip movement. This is why actors dubbing anime sometimes sound dry and emotonless. They could be the greatest actor in the world, but they are handicapped by having to match the onscreen lip movement of their characters.

"As long as it's done well, English dubs are far better than the original Japanese"

Huh? As long as X subs are _well done_, X dubs _are better_ than original Y.

Yes and no. Personally, I think English dubs are better for English-speaking viewers, provided they are done well, but hey, some people like immersing themselves in a culture they don't understand. The exoticism is part of the appeal. Ironically, the same social/cultural dynamic that has so many American kids watch all their anime in Japanese, listen to J-rock and go around trying to imitate Japanese culture is the same reason why so many Japanese kids love Hollywood movies and American music and stick gratuitous English into everything. It's all about escaping from your own culture and feeling immersed in an exotic one. And, of course, there are some people who just feel that any piece of media ought to be experienced in its original language with as literal a translation as possible.
At any rate, I don't think it's really fair for anyone who does not have an extensive understanding of the Japanese language to judge the quality of Japanese voice acting, for better or for worse. It's a different culture, a different style, and a different philosophy toward acting.

I beg to differ. Japanese is not a language I understand, but I do understand emotion and tonal inflection. There been many times while watching anime that I was emotionally moved by what was said, purely on the sound of the voice and the emotion used to convey the scene. I've rarely seen an english dub that has effected me the same way, if at all. Perhaps I am biased, and while watching the dub, I already have it in my head to not enjoy it, even before a word is ever spoken. But when those words do come out, the dryness and fakeness of it all just makes me cringe. Sometimes it sounds like a US voice actor is trying too hard, which sounds unnatural.

And, much is lost in translation simply because we cannot pick up the subtleties of japanese culture! How many times a pun in the original japanese version is completly changed because english speakers simply wont get it? More often than you think. And its not just puns, but many cultural references. But I suppose I dont fault the translators for that. Its when they put words into a characters mouth that wasnt there to begin with, thats when i have a problem. (The entire opening scene in the original Vampire Hunter D had no dialog. The dub however, had dialog. It changed the mood completly of the scene)

Now, when something is made in america for US audiences, the performances are generally better. Especially games. GTA, Bioshock, Uncharted, the list goes on. I wouldnt want to play Heavy Rain (tomorrow!) in any other language than English, because thats the way the game was meant to be played. (for kicks i may switch the language just for a little while, for fun!)

Well, there's your problem Ryo. You're watching a dub expecting the American voice actors to sound like their Japanese counterparts. Emotion and inflection are expressed differently in Japanese and English - sure, there is some degree of human emotion that is a universal component of all communication (and acting), and to that extent I would concede that any viewer possesses SOME capacity to judge the quality of acting in another language, but you are still only really getting a general sense of what is being communicated. The Japanese, by and large, do not believe in natural acting like Western filmmakers do. Their style of acting is influenced by their long tradition of theater - it is inherently theatrical and frequently over-the-top, and if that approach is transferred into an English adaptation, it can sound forced and overacted to our Western ears, which are in this day and age accustomed to a more "realist" approach to acting. If you listen to actual Japanese people talking or watch a movie with Japanese actors that has a much more realistic tone (e.g. "Letters From Iwo Jima") you will find that they sound extremely different from most Japanese voice actors in anime. It seems unfair to criticize American voice actors voicing anime for overacting or going over-the-top when their Japanese counterparts do the same, only you can't speak the language so you can't fully grasp how cheesy they sound. Many have speculated that this trick of viewers tending to overestimate the acting ability of foreign-language actors is the reason Mel Gibson's last two movies managed such success despite the fact that they were both... well, let's not get into that.
By my own standards I do not believe I am qualified to assess the performances of Japanese actors, but just for a second going by your logic and saying I am, my experience is that, in general, Japanese voice actors tend to be around as prone to overacting and over-the-top readings as their American counterparts. Certainly, there are many cases in which (by my own reckoning) the Japanese voice acting is more subtle and expressive than the American version, but there are many cases of the opposite as well, and more cases still in which both languages are equally well (or poorly) acted. Either way, the reality is that without an intimate knowledge of the language, I don't think I am qualified to judge.

"If you listen to actual Japanese people talking or watch a movie with Japanese actors that has a much more realistic tone (e.g. 'Letters From Iwo Jima') you will find that they sound extremely different from most Japanese voice actors in anime."

Finally, there's someone else out there who agrees with me on this point. Actual conversational Japanese does not sound anything like the vast majority of anime conversation. What Westerners describe as "bad dubbing" is often actually "stuff that no one would say in real life in any language and thus sounds stilted in English to English speakers not accustomed to hearing stuff like that in Western media." Also, sometimes "bad dubbing" is "bad localization" (e.g., failure to preserve syllable count in addition to meaning, bad choice of syntax necessary to convey proper meaning, etc.). It's not always "bad acting."

Dude, really? Name me one anime series released in the last 15 years targeted at viewers over the age of 9 in which character or location names have been "Americanized". The argument that "Americans dumb down everything" is unfounded and stupid.

@gatotsu911: Anything on TV (Pokemon, Digimon, YuGiOh, etc etc). Here's the kick. I can watch US version of Pokemon fully in English officially in Japan. Can I watch Japanese version of Pokemon in the US (outside of the legally gray area of fansub)? Nope. As for video games, probably most of them. Heck, the latest Ace Attorney game is still insisting that people are drinking grape juice, and that everything happens in the US.
My end point is, give consumers choice. There are no excuses (eg. disk space) anymore.

When I said "As for video games, probably most of them." that refers to being English dubbed/localized, not necessarily "dumbed down."

"Anything on TV (Pokemon, Digimon, YuGiOh, etc etc)."

I point out that gatotsu911 said, "targeted at viewers over the age of 9." Changing names/locations only happens in series targeted at a young audience. With video games, if they're doing it, it's an effort to reach a mainstream audience. In contrast, there is no reaching the American mainstream with mature anime, so names/locations are left intact.

@killdash9: Then explain Crayon Shinchan. Whatever reasoning you want to put to defend the practice, fact is that the original content is changed, and the publishers don't provide the option for consumers to enjoy the original. That's my point. Give consumers the option to choose. For video games, the tired excuse of not having enough disk space is no longer valid today.

Shin-chan is simple: the original content of the show wouldn't have worked well in America (essentially, it's seen more as a "family" show in Japan, akin to the Simpsons). But a kid exposing himself on a frequent basis wouldn't fly on "primetime", so FUNimation said "to hell with it" and made an adult-oriented dub out of it, placing along the lines of South Park.

Let's not forget Detective Conan... er... Case Closed... That was a show they only put on Adult Swim, and yet all the names are Americanized, even though it's painfully obvious the series takes place in Japan. My younger brother will try to talk to me about the series using the Americanized names, and I end up horribly confused, because I have no clue who he's talking about.

@BPMOmega: Doesn't matter what the reason is, why don't they release the original too? Naruto is censored on TV, but it is released as is on DVD. Explain the discrepancy. Again, I'm not saying they shall not localize the materials ever. My point is, give consumers the choice. And back to video games, the old tired excuse is disc space, which sounds silly in the age of blu-ray and DLC. We are in 2010 now. Are we still having phobia of different cultures/languages?

Also, let me ask you something: Do you really, HONESTLY believe that Phoenix Wright would have become the cult sensation it has in the West if Capcom had chosen to preserve every character and location name and Japanese cultural reference and done a straight-up literal translation? Hell no it wouldn't have, only hardcore otaku would have bought it, it would've been quickly forgotten, and it would end up as just one more game in the pile of "quirky, obscure Japanese games". Instead of taking this route, Capcom had its localization team put together a witty, memorable and hilarious script that preserved the spirit of the original work without alienating the vast majority of Western audiences. See, changes to the source material during an international adaptation are only bad if they betray the spirit of what the writers were trying to convey or somehow make the product worse, and with a talented localization team that shouldn't be the case. Many people who are fluent in both Japanese and English who have played games like "Final Fantasy VI" and "Mario & Luigi" in both languages have actually reported liking the English version better, due to clever, well-written and inspired localizations that took appropriate liberties with the source material to make the game's dialogue flow better to the Western ear. If you really want to experience the writing EXACTLY as the original writers intended it, you're going to have to learn Japanese, because there is no such thing as a 100% accurate translation, particularly not between languages as incredibly different as English and Japanese.

@gatotsu911: Actually, I've played both the Japanese ver and US ver of Phoenix Wright 1 and 2 back to back (the JP DS cartridge have both versions in it) , and I'm surprised on how a lot of the US ver dialogs are actually close, if not the same, to the Japanese ver, even for the jokes, outside of names and locations obviously. I'm just throwing that out as an example (come on, grape juice? Really?). But obviously that is the only thing you nitpick and argue about.
Again, my point is give consumers the choice. Or are you saying that because you refuse to know/understand/learn something different, that anything related to whatever the thing is shall not be available to anybody else?

Dude, what? I'm LEARNING Japanese, specifically so that I can experience Japanese films, anime, games, etc. without needing to rely on a translator as a middleman. But what are you suggesting? That Capcom release the game with two different scripts, one with a literal translation and the other localized? What's the point? The only people who are as extreme purists as yourself have clearly already imported the game anyway.

Also, GOD FORBID they should screw with the artistic integrity of CRAYON SHIN-CHAN. Those damn Americans!!

@Spiffy:
Detective Conan became Case Closed due to copyright issues (for the series name, anyways).
As far as the name changes go, I recall reading they were done by request from the manga artist (I think that's what I've read... I can't find a source for it now... and it may have been about the localization of some other series). [shrug]

As much as I loved the series, it was also in an odd spot. It was too graphic to be on Toonami (back when it existed), but not "adult" enough for the usual [adult swim] demographic.