Ueda: Dead or Alive Paradise not intended to degrade women

I don't get this either. It's not even a new game, it's just a port of the original Xbox version.

It's like people suddenly getting upset over Donkey Kong's apparent lust for blonde human woman in a re-release of the original game.

Ha!

"Paradise in the palm of your hands."

Oh Tecmo, you dog!

Except they removed the volleyball part. Now its just minigames involving looking at your characters.

The volleyball's still there, what are you talking about? There are even screens of the VBall in action.

The bitching is only being done by xbox and its users, partly because they didnt get it to their handlheld.

Yes Ueda, I'm sure it wasn't 'intended', but unfortunatly, it is, you don't have games with half naked men running around putting sun tan lotion on and taking pictures of each other, what does that say to you :)

That straight women and gay men don't appreciate the male body as much as straight men and gay women appreciate a woman's body...

If all that's left is the mind, and the minds are supposed to be equal, I fail to see how it's degrading for women to appreciated for their natural form moreso than men.

I mean seriously. It's a game, not social commentary. It's not like this is a game like shenmue where all women are being portrayed like this. It's the sports illustrated of gaming. I know people bitch about that too, but there comes a point where being PC is being condescending towards the thing you're supposed to be "defending"

Dude, DOA is the epitome of female degrading ¬_¬ If its not, you tell me how low a game would have to go in order to degrade a woman? Make them prostitutes being beaten up by men? Or housewives at the stove? And do you think that would be allowed? They only use 'appreciation' to soften up the fact that its basically porn but without stripping,

How many famales could you put in front of DOA and not expect them to ask why the girls in it are half naked, or why theres a beach filled with women? If anything in the comment you just made is true, then most of the Japanese hentai games could simply be given a new credibility of 'appreciating the female body'.

I love DOA, but even I can see its sole purpose is for perversion, nothing more, nothing less, lol

Wow Massmass, I find your comment quite insulting. I don't appreciate the male body? Yes I do. Damn right I do.

However, I know the difference between appreciating the female form and just having women who are size 6 in little itty bitty bikinis jumping around with their boobs bouncing everywhere and acting stupid. If it were men doing that I wouldn't like it either, not because I'm "a woman or a gay man" as you so rudely put it, but because it's degrading either way no matter what the gender.

That and I don't buy games so I can jack off to them and defend them by saying I "appreciat the form" like you probably do. I'm guessing tissues don't last long in your house? lol

Oh get off it. If anybody looks at this game and thinks anything else except "Ok cool, almost nude bouncy girls" then you reading way too much into it. Calm down women, guys aren't thinking less of you. Your place in the world isn't being altered because of moving pixels.


Also, is professional woman's volleyball just as degrading since their boobs bounce and they wear bikinis?

Thats really no fault of thiers, but the guys playing it are wearing shorts, and I'm pretty sure you're not looking at thier rigged six and toned muscles, but girls get to look. DOA on the other hand is one-sided. Which is great for guys looking for almost nude cute anime girls. For what other possible reason could you think to pick up AND spend money on DOA Volleyball games, they aren't exactly known for thier excellent gameplay, compelling story lines, interesting characters or incredible graphics.

DOA is just a perv fest, simple put, theres no excuse for it :) Standing up for it would be the same as saying GTA isn't violent, its just 'appreciating the beauty of the gun and the bullet and the bullet peircing other innocent digital civilians' lol

People are often trained to believe because it's sexy, it must be degrading.

I wouldn't consider it degrading unless it was lowering their value as a human being. Seeing is how they lose no control or power over themselves, and they're not dressing this way for money because it's the only way they can - Then it isn't degrading. That's basically saying any woman comfortable enough to wear a bikini out to a beach is degrading women. Guys wearing a tank top and jeans is degrading to men. It shoves us in the stereotype of "hardworking, physical labor, strong men". Uncommon / unrealistic depiction of human beings? Sure. Tasteless? Yes. Degrading? Not at all.

Unless there's a mini-game to spit on them or something.

@ Au

(This excludes all other DOA games other then Volleyball, which is connected to the game above and is the only DOA game I have a direct issue with)

My stress of degredation comes in the form of the way the females are percieved in the game, big breasted, somewhat ditzy. The game focuses on a 'ideal beauty' standpoint depending upon what your 'ideal beauty' is, it would be fair to say that regardless of race, most guys would 'prefer' a slender big breasted female like in DOA, proof of this is the success of porn and sales and successes of games like these, chances of this happening? Isn't exactly a good start for the regular female with a heart of gold and superb personality. Everything else apart from fighting is far and few. It doesnt exactly represent females as intelligent and if it did, I certainly didn't get that vibe from the game. There is also a reason why Volleyball didn't perform as well as the other DOA games, and yeah, it wasn't down to degredation, but that was part and parcel of why the game lacked what the other games had.

Now, as I say this, I'm guilty of buying DOA games, simply because I find them fun, however, I didn't bother with the Volleyball games after playing them because they just didn't make sense to me, it just felt like a cheap spin off to seperate the females from the males in the DOA fighting franchise. The games are primarily aimed at males, that doesnt mean that they won't appeal to female gamers, it just specifies the exact niche of which it was aimed.

Maybe I was a little extreme in the way I pointed out the degredation, but in all honesty, I don't believe a game would have to go as far as to have women at a stove in order to be degrading and I also think art is what you make it or how you see it.

The difference between the two in my eyes is that proffesional photos, model shoots and beautiful designs of females in a certain light are what I call an 'appreciation', but when you have ditzy teenaged girls lapdance, perform seductive poses on a beach while you take photos of them, capture the girls running across the beach, bouncing breasts and all in slow motion, all while wearing the skimpiest clothing possible, that says nothing more to me then amatuer porn, the only reason I can muster that they aren't naked already is that there would be public outcry (the nude patch for example).

Nothing adds more fuel to the fire to believe this then the developer of the game being charged with sexual harrassment. Itakagi himself.

I understand fully where you're coming from, and maybe I got carried away a bit, but I also can't see where there is any indication that DOA Volleyball has made any attempt to portray women in a positive light to me other then to look sexy. Its just how I personally felt.

Nor will this prevent me from buying DOA fighting games in future which to me makes more sense then the Volleyball games ever did, at least the females in the games have a purpose.

Spunky Monkey: "you don't have games with half naked men running around putting sun tan lotion on and taking pictures of each other"

I'm a man, and honestly would not find this degrading to men should such a game exist. It wouldn't interest me and I wouldn't buy it, but it wouldn't make me upset or feel degraded either.

I am not singing DOA's praises, because this game doesn't interest me either. All I am stating is that this game is not degrading. To degrade means to lower the value/rank/status of something (simply put, you can find a more detailed definition in a dictionary). I don't see this game lowering the status of a group of women or even women in general.

On a final note, models typically say in interviews that modeling makes them feel "empowered." Models tend to run around in various outfits, some of which are skimpy, and have photos taken of them. Don't see how that is degrading. Hell, I even know women who aspire to be models. If that was degrading, I don't think women would ever want to be models.

I'm starting to go off on a tangent, I just hope you see what I am trying to say.

I didn't mean that men running around half naked in slow mo would be degrading, if anything it would be quite scary and only possibly appealing to gay men. I mentioned it to highlight the fact that there was inequality to focus on stripping off the women of the game and sexing them up. Thus the reason why there are no guys other then Zack in the Volleyball series. If it was truly harmless and focused on what it actually means to play volleyball, there would have been guys in the game as well, which wouldn't have been to bad thinking about it, it would still have been fun, and then you could focus on more guy related sports on the beach as well as eyeing up the girls, rather then ONLY eyeing up the girls.

As for models, yeah, thats true and I respect them a great deal, I see it as no less of a job then becoming an accountant, its tiring and its a job to be respected. But they aren't made to look ditzy, nor do they lapdance at your pleasure and lets remember that DOA girls aren't proffesional models, they are fighters whom happened to be dressed down for the joys of guys. If modeling was to come into this, DOAXV does little to hail the hard work and respect that goes into modelling.

DOA Volleyball is simply put a game for the pleasure of guys, it would be the same as taking all the Tekken or SF4 females out of Tekken and SF4 and sticking them on a male-less island to play volleyball, theres a reason why the 2 haven't done this, they don't want to make the likes of thier female cast come across as suddenly ditzy and focused on lapdancing and wearing tiny bikinis. Christie wears a bondage outfit for crying out loud, how much more amatuer porno can you get :/

so basically the heart of the argument for those saying this is degrading to women is that viewing women or women's bodies as sources of sexual pleasure for men is degrading to them? and a game focusing on sexual pleasure for men from women's bodies is also degrading?

something seems wrong here...

If you are seeing the woman as a woman, but particularly sexy then no, theres no issue. But if the woman in the game represents nothing but a sex object (which is the view I get from DOA Volleyball in particular) then yeah, it is. Theres no respect there and I find it difficult to find anything to 'respect' about DOA Volleyball. At least with the DOA fighting games, the females are represented as less of just sex icons and more of capable fighters, some of which are gamers favourite characters, not because they have the biggest breasts, but because they are particularly interesting or good to use for fighting.

There is no 'level' to which something is degrading, whether or not is is slightly degrading (representing women as nothing more then something to look at, sex objects) and highly degrading (having them in dominated positions), to me, degrading is degrading and yes Titus, I know what it means, I don't need snarky comments like that, just give me your 'opinion' on the matter, I don't care about anything else. Au is capable of doing that without being insulting, learn from him. But if you were to put a 'level' on something, I'd say DOA Volleyball was 'slightly' degrading, in comparison to other forms of degredation, but as a representative of big breasted girls in skimpy outfits, it is the epitome, in my 'personal' opinion, whenever I think of the most revealing outfits in gaming, DOA pops into mind first.

You are entitled to your own beliefs, I just have a veiw that women can be represented as sexy in any way without having to be given the largest breasts, made to lapdance and come across as thick. I could sit here noting game females I find far sexier (not from a freaky virtual girl fetish perspective, but just based upon a males opinion) based upon the way they are represented. Not only that, there was a degree if not full respect towards the females in these games.

If this wasn't an issue, why are so many developers now changing thier representation of females in games to appeal to female gamers, if it wasn't a problem and was in fact popular, all games or at least most would have big breasted, coloured haired, skanty clad females with very realistic and detailed breast bouncing physics in games.

You all make it sound as if I hate games like this, I don't, my issue isn't with females being represented as sexy, or so called the 'ideal sexy', my issue is with the way DOA Volleyball in particular focused on it solely, abandoning all logic and reasoning in favour of half naked women running around doing little or nothing other then showing off thier bodies and talking jibberish that made them seem pretty stupid. If you think I'm complaining over nothing, fair play, there are times I accuse people of doing the same, thus, 'personal opinion'.

I just wanted to say I wasn't making a snarky comment. I was adding to the discussion. I was simply stating that what DOA does is not degrading as per the definition of the word. I was not being insulting in the least. If it came across as such, I apologize, but that was not my intention.

Furthermore, you are going back on what you were saying earlier. You were implying that running around on the beach acting ditzy and what have you is degrading. You even made the whole "you don't see guys running around doing this" comment. You also stated that DOA is "the epitome of female degrading" and you had the above actions listed as reasons for why it was degrading. Why is it then that you suddenly say it is not degrading if guys do it?

You also said: "[if] there would have been guys in the game as well, which wouldn't have been to bad thinking about it, it would still have been fun, and then you could focus on more guy related sports on the beach as well as eyeing up the girls, rather then ONLY eyeing up the girls" which strikes me as a sexist comment. Maybe it wasn't what you intended, but that is how it came across.

Again, not trying to insult you. Insulting others on the Internet just seems silly. Just trying to discuss my viewpoints on this issue while trying to understand yours. I'm just having a hard time seeing how it is degrading is all. This isn't an award winning game or anything, and adds nothing to the gaming industry, just not sure why so many people are crying foul all of a sudden.

I can answer that, if you're still even reading (probably so far back now).

I suppose it has something to do with the way society percieves things, what I consider degrading to women I wouldn't see as that degrading to men, however, I do believe stereotyping in particular instances can be degrading. Sticking on the topic, the point about the guys only game with all the same features as Volleyball was meant in a joking manner to highlight the fact that it wouldn't be done and thus made things very one sided and aimed at the male demographic only, ignoring the female demographic mostly, but if I was to analyse it in greater detail, yes, it could be somewhat degrading (in the same way and to the same level) to men if men were portrayed as sex crazed, no brained action whores who killed first and thought about it later, but hey, that makes up nearly 80% of games today, pointing that out is like pointing out that graphics are getting better, really?? Women are made to 'appeal' to the male fantasy in some games and in others, the focus is more upon what the female has to offer beyond her physical assest, which makes the difference between a game like Uncharted 2 and a game like Volleyball. I only highlight DOA in particular because it happens to be the topic of conversation and one game series renown for sexy females, highlighted even further in Volleyball where they were all chucked onto an island for the pleasure of male gamers, certainly wasn't aimed at females even if the odd female happens to like it or find it somewhat amusing.

As for the guys on the island, it wasn't a sexist comment at all, despite how it may sound, I was talking from a male perspective, but of course if it were a female, it would be the other way round, males to look at and female activities to enjoy. Nothing really sexist about that in the slightest, its not as if the sports would be seperated for males and females, there will just be activities that males favour more and activities that females favour more, but theres nothing stopping gamers of any kind taking part in any activity with any character they decide to choose.

There are games that appeal to everyone regardless of who they were particularly aimed at, I can point out countless females who adore Halo, but it was primarily targeted at males. My female roommate thrashes me at Halo, but even she sat in front of DOA V and thought wtf is this? Its just the perception.

Though my quarm has nothing to do with females in gaming overall because I honestly believe its getting better, which is always a good thing because it brings females to gaming and broadens the variety and number of people playing online especially. Its just with DOA Volleyball which I personally thought was a pretty darn stupid game, but throw a DOA5 at me and I'll buy it without blinking.

Technically it only objectifies women, so he's half-right.

@freaparn

it's an important distinction. objectification and degradation aren't always necessarily the same thing.

I don't know if this helps, but I personally love women.

Don't know why people say hot + beautiful + sexy = degrading. Degrading women should be when you make them fugly, unsexy, up to the point where instead of having a boner, you shrink inward.

Objectification is degrading. It treats a person like an object that has a particular purpose. Human beings dont have a purpose - that's the basis of our morality.

"I suppose only the borderline lesbian extreme feminists get disgusted at this or something. (Not trying to offend anybody, but c'mon, getting called sexist because you give away your seat in a bus to a lady? Pshaw.)"

that kind of comment (outside of being tinged with homophobia) makes it pretty clear that you have no actual experience with the feminist movement outside of television caricatures and talk show stereotypes. i'm a guy who's been involved with women's rights causes for a while (i simply think that women deserve things like equal pay, etc.), and 99.9% of people who support women's equal rights would NOT give a crap because you gave up your seat or opened the door for a woman. anyone who does.....is an idiot, and if you've ever encountered that personally, then i'd urge you not to take it as representative of an entire group.

you gave up your seat or opened the door for a woman. anyone who does.....is an idiot, and if you've ever encountered that personally, then i'd urge you not to take it as representative of an entire group.'

Of course I not. I know homosexual people myself and they're not as TV or media depicts them, but I have had some unpleasant moments with 'extremist' people, like the example I posted up there, that happened to me on my way to school, or some guy who was an ass to girls but whenever someone wanted to shut him up or something he complained about 'homophobia'.

I really didn't mean to sound disrecpectful, or homophobic, what you do is really good, but I merely meant to throw a little joke to people who get offended at everything or anything, again, if I did offend you or that sounded bad, you have my sincerest apologies. :)

[A newb using the reply system, sorry]

Oh lord, KeiferKuroi

"..which sounds totally hot."


Man, that was beautifully written. It gave me a good hearty chuckle XD

Shit I missed it.

I hope the comment was at least funny...

Dammit, I missed it too.

[banned... for being too damn awesome!!]

Jade Raymond article again?

Joystiq. Please leave the reasons why people get banned, so other commenters know not to cross that line. The way you currently just "black bag" people is ridiculous. How do you expect your community to watch their tongues if they don't know what to watch for?

Shadowbender, too?

Joystiq has a penchant for banning awesome members now, huh?

www.amazon.com

ah but after you buy it off amazon. then the front page will be like. based on your previous purchase we recommend sexy beach 2.

We got Soul Calibur instead?

Soul Calibur is fine, but for some reason DOA was really enjoyable. Hits felt like they landed hard, you could muck up a friend's combo string with a single good counter, and then SURF THEM DOWN SOME STAIRS. It was more in line with a good kung fu movie than any other fighting game I've seen. Not that that's bad or anything.