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Reader Comments (38)

Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:24AM shiftplusone said

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oh boy RA Salvatore

its a drinking game/suicide pact if you take a shot for every usage of the word stoic
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:28AM KevinWI said

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Who's Curt Schiller?

I hope you didn't mistake the name of World Series pitcher Curt Schilling.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:31AM (Unverified) said

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Click the link for "with 38 Studios' Copernicus project;" it's the same Curt Schilling. He's been talking about and toying with game development for years, he's been named on this and other gaming sites multiple times for doing so.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:45AM KevinWI said

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Well I knew Curt Schilling was working on game development but I don't know who this Curt Schiller is that this article mentions.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 8:35PM Chareth Cutestory said

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I like a little penalty with my death, but not necessarily anything more than the standard corpse run.

Death should be something you really try to avoid, but I certainly don't miss the experience losses that early MMOs inflicted on dead players. With everything from skills, to armor, to access to certain areas depending on player level, few things were quite as infuriating as leveling down.

Also, there are a great many ways to die in an MMO. Dying out in the wilderness alone and having to find your body to regain some gear or experience is one thing, but when it's a group of 10 or more people taking that risk together, possibly multiple times in a day, that compounds the negatives. Then there are all the crazy stories you hear of people dying in awkward places, like out at sea, and the difficulties recovering those corpses present.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:36AM (Unverified) said

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Fans of the old EQ should probably just go play the old EQ. It's still running. It looks like crap compared to newer games, and the UI is trash comparably as well, but if you have a nostalgia craving it's all still there.

The problem with strong death penalties in the context of EQ is that Verant went out of their way to obfuscate much of the game mechanics, making it easier to die than in the MUDs EQ was based on. A naked run back to your corpse, with a 24-hour time limit, sometimes requiring your 50-man raid to enlist the aid of a second 50-man raid to get back to where your were, was not really an enjoyable experience for me, nor, based on the mass exodus away from EQ and EQ2 once other options became available, were those experiences enjoyable for anyone else.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 9:04AM (Unverified) said

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Yeah.. no offense, but dont listen to this guy. lol
Current EQ sucks ass... and "old fans" definitely should not be playing it...
I and all the other "old fans" have gone back many times and regretted it every time. The game has progressively gotten worse and worse after Luclin..

And there were plenty of options to getting your corpse other than just running to it. On top of that, there was no 24 hour time limit.. There was definitely at least 4 days or something, if i recall correctly it was a week.

And these death penalties were not "strong"... They were normal. Where as WoW and every other MMO ruined the idea of being scared to die, to not even need to go get your body, It all became way too easy.. I even liked the beginning of EQ2, on release; When a member in your party died.. everyone in the party lost XP... now that implemented a means for good teamwork, but they quickly changed that because of the whiners and complainers. And claiming your bases were just as of the masses is extremely wrong too. Do yourself a favor and look around on some EQ forums.. These "harsh" requirements/tasks, are part of what made the game great.

I could go on about this all day, but ill just leave it at that =P
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:41AM Gandalf the Grey said

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Should I be scared?
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 7:43AM RogueJedi86 said

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CHEWIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




But seriously, I agree with him on death penalties. The reward isn't very sweet if you took no risk to get it.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:04PM SirUrza said

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Yeah but come on.. Chewie didn't die scared. He died dueling a moon for christ sake!
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:40PM TheDarkWayne said

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and he beat that moon with his giant furry fists until it gave up and exploded! Or something like that,
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 8:56AM (Unverified) said

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As a loving fan of Everquest (The best MMO ever released) this is music to my ears... death penalties? accidentally dying by an NPC... hopefully other "non carebear stuff".... sign me up!
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 9:20AM Mabui said

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Yes, 9 million people must be wrong - everyone actually wants to be frustrated when spending way too many hours on a MMO. Nothing like wasting time with something mildly enjoyable - and then dieing and having a large chunk of that wasted time become lost.

Awesome.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 9:43AM (Unverified) said

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^^ They see me trollin... they hatin!! they only tryna catch me postin durty!

Im only gonna say this once.. Go back to WoW....

Now that thats off my chest.. WoW got most of its elements from EQ... in case you dont know. Also, EQ was released in a time during AOL and Mindspring (which you probably never even heard of).. in other words, 56K.. Not many people played MMO's back then.. let alone online games.

If EQ would have been released a couple of years later when cable/dsl took off, it would have been alot bigger.

And for my last piece of stfu:

"everyone actually wants to be frustrated when spending way too many hours on a MMO. Nothing like wasting time with something mildly enjoyable"

^^ we are talking about EQ, not WoW...
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 10:50AM LaughingTarget said

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EQ would not have been bigger. If that were true, then Vanguard would be a smashing success and not being on the brink of death.

EQ managed to hit 250k peak subscribers out of the novelty of the idea. A pure on clone with better graphics (Vanguard) will fail miserably.

The penalty needs to make sense. Equipment degredation and XP losses don't make sense. Nude equipment runs aren't fun. I'd the economy was strong enough to handle replacement functions like EVE, losing equipment would work just fine.

What there needs to be is a serious afterlife mechanic. A quest to get out of a limbo back to the living. The time and difficulty required could be based on level and even use a karma function if this is an open PvP world.

But the EQ method? That will bomb the game. Even things like lining up in dungeons will kill it.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:18AM (Unverified) said

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By comparing Vanguard to EQ at all.. your whole post failed.. sorry im being such an ass, but i hate it when start to talk about EQ and have no idea wtf they are talking about...

Vanguard was supposed to be like EQ.. Yes... Before it was released they were claiming it was the true EQ2... which was all a bunch of crap. Vanguard didnt die because it "was like eq" (which it wasnt), vanguard is dying because it sucks ass..

"Equipment degredation and XP losses don't make sense."

Those 2 make perfect sense... theres nothing else out there that would make more sense...

1. You died... Aka, you got beat up pretty bad.. AKA your armor got torn apart.
2. You died... Aka, you lose some experience (motivation, knowledge, whatever you wanna word it as).. regain that experience, and some more to try to take on the mob again... just as it would happen in real life, You get owned by some boxer, you take a few steps backward before you go forward... I dont know how to word it in a better way..

But it just makes sense.

Im tired of easy mode gamers whining about games being too difficult or too time consuming.. Heres a clue, dont play them/talk about them.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:34AM Mabui said

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First off.

No.

Secondly, if someone responds to a point made within the story - it is not a trolling - it is called "Commenting" What you do - is "Trolling" The comments looking for someone to take the shit out of because you have unrequited love with a game that honestly doesn't love you back.

Shhh - it's okay, I fully understand what it is like to love something so unconditionally that you are blinded to the faults. I have things like that too - but I can only hope that I am mature enough to realize this before I turn into a blindly rabid fanboy that "Trolls"

Also, I don't play WoW, nothing about it particularly caught my attention - because I played the games that paved the way for EQ - and nothing much of the core of its addiction has really changed.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:45AM (Unverified) said

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this might be a double post cause this comment system is broken.. but w,e:

"Yes, 9 million people must be wrong - everyone actually wants to be frustrated when spending way too many hours on a MMO. Nothing like wasting time with something mildly enjoyable - and then dieing and having a large chunk of that wasted time become lost.

Awesome."

^^^ trolling in this topics case.

and no im not.. im just spitting the truth, and eq did love me back.. for 9 years.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:45AM TwistedBishop said

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EQ actually had 450k subscribers at its peak. That puts it as one of the most successful MMOs of all time, ahead of everything that isn't named WoW, Final Fantasy or Lineage.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:09PM SirUrza said

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I don't like corpse runs, particularly when they're badly designed. That said, I liked how Demon Souls handled death and wonder if that mechanic doesn't have a place in an MMO.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:47PM TheDarkWayne said

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"Im tired of easy mode gamers whining about games being too difficult or too time consuming.. Heres a clue, dont play them/talk about them."
I'm tired of assholes like you. If you are capable of doing so, think deeply here for a minute. Are people actually complaining about the difficulty? Are people saying "Aww man, the Lich King is so hard! They should make it so we can 1 man him!" No, they're saying that if they were to die on the lich king, it would suck to have to do all the things you did in EQ to get your corpse back or whatever probably terrible idea this game will have.

There's a difference between difficult and challenging. Challenging is fun, something you can overcome, like Demon's Souls. Difficult is just stupid shit that does nothing but waste your time. I don't know why I'm wasting my time, it's more than obvious you're a troll especially when you used the old saw "if you dont like it don't play it". The problem is people probably like most of the game, but when there's so many ways to die in games like this (Disconnecting during a fight, getting ganked by someone 5 levels above you while you're fighting an npc, etc.) there's no reason to have them. People like you seem to have lost sight of the fact that games are supposed to be fun, and not just lube to stroke your epeen with
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 6:50PM ECVOICE said

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So, if 9 million people are playing a crap game, it's suddenly good by virtue of 9 million people playing it?

Who cares about the numbers? A good game stands on its own, regardless of how many people play it or even know about it.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 9:46AM Mats said

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Death penalty really worked out for the Vanguard guys, they had that thing running what... at least 14 days, before the userbase complaints about it forced them to remove it.
I'm sure this fresh faced company can do it, after all, the creators of Everquest 1 and 2 hardly knew what they were doing, right?
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:07AM (Unverified) said

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I had an email exchange with R.A. Salvatore once. Seems like a very nice guy.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 10:24AM (Unverified) said

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EQ did plenty of things right and wrong. Nostalgia plays a big part in it, but although I was burnt out on MMO after EQ1 I still tried WoW and EQ2, along with others. For my money, EQ2 was the best MMO out there.

WoW is a great game, by a great company. It has so many subscribers because it is accessible. Death penalties do nothing to detract the hardcore. For some people, like myself, death penalties seem like an appropriate punishment. If you were stupid or did something risky, that was the price you paid. Often you needed to risk death to get greater rewards. It was especially harsh in the early days, but by the time I quit EQ, it was basically something I never worried about. Can't say I missed it. However, most people hate the idea of experiencing a penalty because they didn't know Kithicor forrest is full of higher level creatures at night.

Yes, for the hardcore, there should be a stiffer punishment to make their advancement feel challenging, but making a global death penalty will effect and deter those who dislike it. Something a little harsher than WoW, maybe, but losing exp shouldn't be the penalty. Instead focus on penalties for death in situations where hardcore players will expose themselves to higher risk than a non-hardcore. Like the option to chose a more difficult dungeon instance for better drops and stiffer death penalties.

I preferred the non-instanced dungeons, but if you have them, there has to be some sort of alternate instanced area for people to go who don't feel like waiting for a decent camp. in short, penalties are an incentive to some, but a burdon to others, so you have to find a way to implement them so they only apply to people who will actually get more enjoyment out of the frustration.
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Posted: Apr 9th 2010 9:50AM (Unverified) said

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I agree with your sentiments regarding EQ. Reading this thread I try to stay focused on the concept of Death Penalty in general. I can rant on why it is a great idea. That has been done already by better commentators then I. I just wanted to add some other examples from different genere's that hone in the point of a quality game with death penalty vs. a non-quality game and no death penalty. Example: Eve online and pod killing vs. Star Trek Online and no death penalty for losing your ship. Anyone that has played both these games are more then likely not to subscribe to one of them. I would bet Star Trek Online, I for one stopped my sub ASAP when I realized no death penalty. RE: EQ1 days..friends and I often banter about some of the greatest memories and all nighters we had in game. They were often stories around epic corpse runs. That content gave alot of material for team work of a level unknown to any other game that I am aware of. Imagine how good it felt that 50 people got together just for "you"; to help you in your cause and get your corpse. What other engine brings that many people together soley focused on you? Dont say raid for that is about loot pts, roll's, ect. Not just about "one person" in general. It seems to me that the stiffer the penalty the higher my level of anxiety and sweat. I don't get that on a kiddy ride. I get that at a six flags, on a roller coaster called something like "Belching down the Devils Spine" where I think I am going to die. I like a game to give the same thrills comparatively. Not sit in a chair and "think" it is scary using my own mind. I pay the devs to add that illusion when I buy their games. Otherwise I'd just read a good book.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:00AM gLitterbug said

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I think the problem with death penalties isn't that they are a penalty as such, but that it basically is something annoying breaking the flow of the game put in a game where you can't help but die due to the "arcade" nature of it.

When there are such big level differences in PVP that are displayed right on top of your character which make attacking another player not the least bit a danger to yourself, or other common situations that make "dying through" an annoying but working alternative to playing "properly", then the death penalty isn't really working.

If you want to make the death penalty have actual impact, then have it make sense in the game world itself, like he says. A corpse run being the easiest way out that might be accepted just enough by the player and while it might annoy him, it won't be as much as to make him quit probably.

I'd be interested to see death penalties like a decaying player character. Each time you die takes a toll on your appearance and slowly (or fast if you die a lot) you turn into some kind of undead. Accompanied by stat changes or how you are treated in the game world or even just becoming unable to use emoticons. That might give you an actual motivation to stay "pure" instead of a corpse run.
But then, as already mentioned such things only make sense in an MMO that isn't the typical arcade-like experience where it's all about grind, stats and better drops you get from raids that play out more like some mathematical button-pressing metagame where UI-plugins make it look like you play a highly complex space flight simulator instead of a role playing game.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:44AM (Unverified) said

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"Yes, 9 million people must be wrong - everyone actually wants to be frustrated when spending way too many hours on a MMO. Nothing like wasting time with something mildly enjoyable - and then dieing and having a large chunk of that wasted time become lost.

Awesome."

^^^ trolling in this topics case.

and no im not.. im just spitting the truth, and eq did love me back.. for 9 years.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:44AM (Unverified) said

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Meh... I just want a good Drizzt game, Salvatore!

Make a Homeland game and I'll buy that.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 8:03PM adonai said

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Yeah, I had no idea he was involved in games. A 3rd person Drizzt game set in the Realms could be awesome...
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 11:57AM Floppypants said

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EverQuest wasn't fun because people feared death and relished in the accomplishment of not dying. EverQuest was fun because it offered a new experience. It was a pioneer of the genre. You'd put up with a lot of the bad, punishing game mechanics because there were so many other aspects of the game that were awesome. I loved the social interaction and cooperative gameplay. It was mind blowing stuff for 1999.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:13PM shiftplusone said

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Mind blowing stuff because UO did it 2 years earlier?
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:20PM freaparn said

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@Gerik

Not to be one of those tight-asses who shows up whenever people start discussing the roots of the genre, but... actually, I guess that's exactly what I'm trying to be, heh. In any case, 1999 was almost two decades after the launch of the first text-based multi-used dungeon game's launch, and 2D games like Neverwinter Nights Online were around in 1991. Even Meridian 59 predated EQ as the first 3D MMO. EQ was more a pioneer of commercial success than anything else, the game itself cribbed heavily from DikuMUD (to which the creators freely admit).
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Posted: Mar 13th 2010 1:37AM Floppypants said

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I'm well aware of those other games and took them into account when I made my comment. I didn't say that EverQuest was the first MMO. EverQuest didn't fail to be mind blowing because Ultima Online was also an MMO. You can be a pioneer of a genre without being the original.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 12:33PM Khazidhea said

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Word, I dope single player experience of the Homeland series would be great. Maybe the icewind dale trilogy would make a better game experience.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:07PM SirUrza said

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If Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach is any indication on the quality of D&D MMO we can ever hope for, I'd rather they leave Homelands and Icewind Dale alone.

That said, WOTC blew up Forgotten Realms with 4e. I doubt they'll ever license a MMO set 100 years before the "current" timeline of the game that can't be marketed along side any of the pen & paper product.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 1:23PM Zantom said

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He is right, both EQ being the best world immersion and the death penalty. I quit EQ twice because of the steep death penalty (I think it might have been too steep), however, since then I have NEVER had as much anxiety and elation in any game to date. You have to know pain to know joy. As long as I am enjoying the game as I am playing it (and not trying to get to the "end game" to enjoy it) then I won't see a set back in a death penalty as a time sync to get to that "end game" fun.

I have some hope for this project (of which I currently know very little about).
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Posted: Mar 12th 2010 6:54PM ECVOICE said

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Yeah, the sleep penalty was the worst. I heavily beta tested EQ and could not return after that, for that very reason.

But one thing was for certain: I got scared playing EQ. Scared of being killed. Scared of the consequences. It was a rush, not knowing sometimes whether I'd make it out alive or not.

With the Copernicus project, I may just be willing to risk that sleep penalty again...at least a little.
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