Peter Dille: Move will attract hardcore gamers with precision

And now here's Ollie Williams with the black-u-weather forecast...

Ollie: "ITS GONNA RAIN!"

actually, i am just craving rail shooters. but nonetheless, i'm impressed in what im seeing.

You mean This one?

damn it... no html I suppose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0puP8nrIU8&feature=player_embedded

@Hxczuner
haha thanks i never saw that one. BUTLER STRIKES AGAIN! lol he also made some wii and perhaps natal puns at the end

Lawl!

Seriously tho, i found myself become far more accurate when given the Wiimote/nunchuk combination. Played through RE4 12 times on the GC, best run-through time of 2 hrs 20 mins, when i got the Wii version, 2nd playthrough, got 2 hours 5 mins. The controls are just so intuitive and so close to my normal FPS controls on PC, which is probably why i found myself playing and shooting more accurately. I'll buy RE5 on the Ps3 if the controls are the same as RE4 on the Wii, no doubt.

Great idea, I'll just need to order two more arms...

Pretty sure he is talking about having analog sticks on the Move controllers. If you have those, the camera will track the controllers while the hands holding the two controllers will adjust the analog sticks. Only 2 arms needed for this.

HAsn't it been establishef on the newest Engadget show that Sony did motion gaming like the move and wii last gen? also, "slightly" is a gross understatement when talking about accuracy.

You mean the lame "motion" controls that the sixaxis does? That's not motion control, it's silly.

http://playstation.joystiq.com/2009/08/03/sonys-earliest-motion-controller-plans-included-teletubbies-x/

That is motion control, and it was last gen (was on PlayStation 2).

Didn't we have this discussion before on who came first in the motion business? All of the companies have been doing R&D on motion for more than a generation.

seriously. whenever people used to bring up the whole "HD-Wii" argument, i'd say no, give the product a chance. then they debuted it at GDC and i had to admit, it's pretty much exactly that. they can still prove me wrong (and i hope they do), but my hopes for all of this motion stuff is waning by the day.

I've never had a problem with any of the motion stuff on the Wii and love how the games are better for it. Just looking at my collection, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Mad World. Metroid Prime Trilogy and Tiger Woods Pro Tour 10 jump out immediately as games i know are enhanced greatly by their motion controls. Sure there is a lot of crap on the Wii, but the games that are done well, are done REALLY well.

Haha, when I mentioned this on another thread, plus the fact that half of the demoed "games" weren't all that accurate, I was downvoted to hell and back.

It uses almost the exact same technology as the wii, except that the camera is stationary and the tracking device moves, where on the wii the tracking lights are stationary and the camera moves. I'm guessing there are accelerometers and gyros in the thing to aid it, since without those it's just a glorified pointer.

The only differences between move and the wiimote that I can see are:
1) Move can do HD games (whoo)
2) Move doesn't come with the system, so it'll cost extra
3) Move only has 2 points of reference (the ball and the camera) instead of three (two IR lights and the wiimote), so unless there is something I'm missing, its tracking in a 3d space is going to be a little less accurate than the wii's, and
4) the wiimote must be pointing at the ir lights, while the move can be in any position so long as the ball on top can be seen.

Now to be fair, point 4 is a huge deal--it will open alot of possibilities the wii cannot handle. But otherwise, its the same damn thing as the wii, except (probably) less accurate.

I'd love to be proven wrong, btw.

@Foetoid

In a select few games, the wii control scheme is marvelous. Off the top of my head, there is Tiger Woods (with motion plus), Metroid (although the pulling switches mechanic isn't as accurate as it should be), Mario Kart, RE4, various track shooter, and the parts of Mario Galaxy where you balance on a ball.

The problem is that its obviously very difficult to write good motion control software, because otherwise 95% of the games out there wouldn't suck. Is it possible to do it well? Obviously. But that doesn't mean that it happens very often.

@JCD its not exactly the same tech, the glowing ball at the top they track the size of that and that's how they know your position in the z space something the wii cant do well or at all.. The wiimote doesn't know you position in the z space, bringing the controller constantly forward / backward wont make much difference. The move can also do augmented reality / head tracking / facial recognition etc via the ps eye none of which you can do on the wii..

I do agree that it is basically a wii in hidef.. Most are missing the trick here, most have wii's like me for example and I havent bought a single game for it in years..

What your not getting is that for Example lets take EA.

The motion controls are similar enough for them to take the motion scheme of the wii version of PGA for example and then marry it with the high resolutions of the xbox/ ps3 version of PGA, job done. This is exactly why PGA 11 will support move.

The control scheme can behave exactly the same as the wii version if we take just x , y positioning then the wii and ps3 version are basically the same. This means that a publisher / developer can create a motion controlled game and be safe in the knowledge that with very little effort they can map the control scheme onto both platforms..

The disadvantage is very obvious also, the publisher only develops for the lowest common denominator ie they ignore the glowing ball and design the control mechanism to be the same across the wii / ps3 and the graphics is from the xbox360 version ignoring the cell spe's and only sony 1st parties develop properly for the hardware..

The Natal has an uphill battle to fight, it suffers from lag and it isnt in anyway similar to the wii controls.. So if a developer is to build a game for it they have to build it completely with the Natal in mind and the control scheme will not map to anything else..

I have read about how everyone wants head / face tracking so they can duck their head out to peak around corners and throw their arm up for example to simulate grenade throwing..

What none of you take into consideration is that sitting on a couch with a controller means that the camera only needs to know your position in x,y space.. Why bother getting a Natal ? Any web cam can be used to get your x,y position to detect hand beng lifted to do facial recognition to recognise your head has moved ie head tracking, all thing the ps eye can already do.. Even the camera that came with the in the movies or whatever on the xbox 360 can do it.. It makes something like natal become a very expensive useless toy.

Another example is the nxe and walking through the menu options.

To walk through the 360 nxe all you need to have is a high frequency camera you dont need a camera to build a skeletal model for it to detect your moving your hands, do you ? all it needs to do is detect your x,y motion again.

Detecting you and who you are and logging you into the 360 automatically again no need for the Natal.. Nearly all cameras have facial recognition. Even freaking mobile phone cameras have facial recognition (check out the xperia x10 to see what I mean) .. It really isnt that difficult to do and you dont need something that can build a skeletal model to be able to do facial recognition ? If it uses voice recognition to detect you then just having a standard headset on would do the job..


Does this all begin to make sense ? So what would you end up using the natal and its 3d body detection for ? This is the whole issues with it.

I can imagine using it for a few things.. Firstly exercise for exercise work outs etc the Natal will excel. For martial arts training again it will excel, it doesnt need to be real time it can detect your movement for example and see if you are doing it right.. Basically the wii with the wii fit board.. Again stuff like running on the spot and it projects a field where you can pretend your running in some out door environment etc etc.. Because it can detect your feet it could be used to make something like a tekken game.. I am sure it would sell well, but I am also sure that 90% of the people playing the game would not be able to pull off most of the kicking within it.

Now a stereoscopic camera and 2 x move controllers, with a games console with at least 2x / 4x the power of current gen games consoles and 8 x the current ram, now we are talking.

@McDuck

It obviously isn't the "exact" same tech; the wii uses triangulation, and the Move doesn't have access to 3 reference points. But its pretty damn similar--visual tracking of multiple points in a 3d area.

I would beg to differ with your statement that the wii cannot determine the 3d coordinates of the wiimote. Don't forget, the wii has 3 points of reference, which allows for triangulation. Through basic trigonometry, the wii should be able to determine the relative x/y/z coordinates of the wiimote at all times (though my understanding is that it is a little underpowered, making sudden gestures difficult to track along all 3 axes).

Regarding head and body tracking, I'll believe it when I see it in person. I know that's a pretty skeptical perspective to have, but I've heard this song before, and I've yet to see it work with the precision hardcore gaming requires. I don't even know that I think Natal will be able to do it right. I'd be delighted to be mistaken, but right now I'm going with the adage "the proof is in the pudding."

I'm aware that multiplat sports games will probably benefit most from this. But why would I play Tiger Woods 2011 on ps3 with the Move when I could just play it on my wii? It'll be prettier, but otherwise, the games will be the exact same. Plus, Move is going to require an additional investment of (likely) $100, while playing it on the Wii will only cost the game (which, if its like 2010, will come bundled with a motion plus and will cost $60, the same as most games on the 360 and ps3). If you don't have a wii, and you're a total golf nut, then yeah, I could see someone shelling out $160 for the game + controller, but otherwise? I just don't see it happening.

Don't even get me started on Natal. Lets assume the input lag is fixed before it goes live. What are the actual applications for it? The handball demo was impressive, but I'm not buying a (likely) $100 peripheral to play handball. And then there's the question of how accurate it will even be . . .

@JCD

The wiimote uses an accelerometer which works out the x,y,z same as the six axis controller.. It does use the infrared to track the relative position as well.

I think this explains it best:

http://www.wiimoteproject.com/project-ideas/11-wiimote-lightgun-tracking/

"Q: Why doesn't the Wii already provide 1:1 screen tracking?
A: Because the included sensor bar only provides two IR tracking points. This is sufficient to provide distance, rotation, and relative position. But you need 3 points to define a 3D plane. With only 2 points, it's impossible to tell whether the sensor bar is becoming smaller because you are moving away from it, or because you are stepping sideways and looking at it from an angle (due to perspective foreshortening, the distance between the two points becomes smaller, but without a third reference, it's not possible to tell if this is because you are moving away or to the side). ."

Do you understand the limitations of the system they are using ? The wiimotion plus still doesnt address this.

The major problem is that they are tracking dots, the ps3 tracks a ball so you can get all 3 points from a ball if that makes sense.. This is why the ps3 move should be able to do Z tracking properly.

As for the head tracking ..

Gran Turismo will have head tracking if you connect the ps eye
http://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5s-head-tracking-explained/

Also as for the move and head tracking watch the engadget show they show a robot being mapped onto a person and thats used to track the head so they have live demos already showing head tracking working.. Head tracking will also be available on GT5 using just the ps eye..


Also if you have been waiting for more demos of Natal in action, you should check this out Police 24/7 II its a new project for the natal showing how on rail shooters will work, its absolutely awesome:

http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/police-24-7-ii-project-natal/341963

;)

@McDuck

Again, the wii does in fact track 3 different point. You forget that the camera itself is a trackable point.

The accelerometers in the wiimote do not determine the x/y/z coordinates of the controller. Accelerometers are only capable of detecting force. This means that they are able to sense if you move the controller, as well as the angle you are holding the controller at (due to gravitational force acting on the accelerometers).

Further, accelerometers only provide motion sensing along 3 axes--up-down, left-right, and forward-back. The sixaxis adds gyros to equation to give it full six axis motion detection--pitch, yaw, and roll. But! None of these tell the system where the controller /is/, they only tell the system how the controller is moving/how it is being held (tilted, etc). This is why the motion plus was such an improvement to the wii; it gave the remote true six axis motion detection.

The wii uses the relative strength of the ir light sources, plus supplemental accelerometer data, to determine the wiimote's relative location in a 3d space. As long as it can draw an imaginary triangle with the two light sources in the "sensor bar," it can tell you, relatively, where the remote is.

The ps3 replaces triangulation with camera motion tracking and size detection. So it is slightly different tech. But it isn't substantially different; they both sense motion (you can damn near guarantee the move wand will have sixaxis detection), and they both use visual detection to track position in a 3d field. If the move is more accurate than the wiimote, I will be pleasantly surprised. But I just don't see it happening. I'm kinda like the kid who burned his finger on the stove. You can tell me that the stove isn't hot, but I'm not in a hurry to test you on that. ;)

And I do in fact understand the limits of the wii. There are multiple factors that can cause an ir source to be dim, throwing the triangulation off. Having a lamp near your sensor bar will throw off your tracking (something my dad still doesn't understand). Naturally, adding gyros to the remote isn't going to tell the system where you are in a 3d space. All it does is make the motion sensing work better.

The question (and its a /big/ question) is, can the move truly track the ball with reasonable latency levels, and with acceptable accuracy? Tracking an ir source is easy because you filter out all other wavelengths. Tracking body parts, magic wands with a ball on the top, or whatever, is something totally different.

And saying that something "is going to do head tracking" isn't proving that head tracking works. Here, I'll do you one better and tell you that in six months, I'll release a blow up doll that is capable of rational thought! Microsoft is making some HUGE promises for Natal, and I have yet to be convinced they can keep said promises.

I just have my doubts . . .

@JCD read the source link:

http://www.wiimoteproject.com/project-ideas/11-wiimote-lightgun-tracking/

They use 2 sensor bars to achieve proper 1:1 tracking.. You cant use the camera to give you the third point.. You can use two points to give you relative to map 3d space you need 3 points. Again please read the source link above it will make sense once you read it.

If you move to the left of the co-ordinated triangle what has happened ? Have you moved further away ? Could it interpret you as moving further away ? what about if you move to the right ? Does this make sense ? So working out a relative triangle using the camera as the point of origin will never be able to give you true 1:1 z-axis mapping.. This is all I am try to say..

By watching a sphere of a fixed size, you know the sphere dimensions so you know its height and its width, the camera is always fixed and not moving so you know the distance from the camera. So you dont even need to use image mapping you can use the already fixed size of the sphere to work out all dimensions and use that to work everything out..

On top of that you know the colour of the sphere which indicates which controller and it has its own light source which means that it will work in the dark.

The current ps3 dual shock already has six-axis controls it had six-axis controls @ launch. The ps3 move also has six-axis controls ie gyro and accelerometer..

There has been lots of demos already released by Sony and they also did a major press release @ GDC.. Anyway just watch this :

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-sony/63129

Your right to be skeptical, but considering the amount of videos and things shown about the move its fairly obvious that its accurate and that its tracked well..

For further reading check here:

www.few.vu.nl/~eliens/archive/student/tutorial/wiimote.pdf

www.cs.cmu.edu/~15-821/CDROM/PAPERS/lee08.pdf

www.imathas.com/wiimotes/wiimotesrobots.ppt


I tell you what I didnt realise the wii ir camera could capture a resolution of 1024 x 768 and @ 100Hz the viewing angle is only 45 degrees though. Thats still very impressive.

Sword Fight on Wii Sports Resort is still incredibly f-ing laggy; sometimes it doesn't even register a slash that I made nor does it recognize thrust/stab moves. I found myself waggling my way to victory in Sword Fight because the f-ing Motion Plus add-on couldn't recognize the basic kendo moves fast enough for it to be of any use. Blocking isn't even implemented properly for Sword Fight. I mean, the AI can block your hits but you can't do the same against the AI? You can counter, but what's the point of that if you can't block the friggin' strike in the first place? All in all, the Motion Plus has been an incredibly frustrating and disappointing experience for me.

I'm sure that there are other games that make better use of the Motion Plus but at this point, I'm perfectly fine with just sitting down and playing Trauma Center or Little King's Story.

I disagree entirely.

Sword fighting on Resort has been spot on for me and it got really fun in competition with AI (I can only get up to level 1134 or something 'cause they get so good)

Just messing around with the practice slicing of objects and seeing the accuracy would be the next "analog stick" revolution in gaming (so to speak) in my opinion if the game just didn't lake depth.

@nofriendo:
So you're saying that you got Sword Fight to register a stab/thrust move? That moveset doesn't exist in the bloody game. Nor does blocking/parrying work. The only way to cancel out the enemy's slash is to counter it or hope that your strike is faster than the enemy's. I've already gotten to 1124 points and it's still an incredibly frustrating experience.

Darn comment system!

I don't have the link, but it has been posted MANY times. There was a prototype for the Move back in the days of the PlayStation Eyetoy for the PlayStation 2. Granted they never supported it back then, they were at least working on it prior to Nintendo. So, while it is true that they are now jumping into the motion gaming arena seeing as how lucrative it has been for Nintendo, they still had been working on it for quite some time.

http://playstation.joystiq.com/2009/08/03/sonys-earliest-motion-controller-plans-included-teletubbies-x/

There. Joystiq actually had an article showing PlayStation was working on similar projects at the beginning of the millennium. How bandwagon of Sony.

I did not say they did not have the technology, I am saying they did not consider it important until Nintendo made it popular, thus they jumped on the band wagon.

" and as per usual with sony it's a tiny bit better but VERY late to the game and over priced."

Move doesn't have a price yet.

i do agree with you that Move is technically the same as a Wiimote though. i may pick up Move since i have a PSEye already (that i never use) and PS3 is my preferred console even though i have then all. it really depends on what games they put it in and if the devs put it in in ways that actually enhance the game. on Wii, i normally just end up doing the motions as lazily as possible after a while and i don't want Move to be the same.

Natal trying something new?!?! ROFLMAO....

Once again....the PS2s EyeToy says hello....

"Move doesn't have a price yet."

But the PS3 is already more expensive than the Wii, and you have to buy the Move separately. So, over priced in comparison to the Wii, maybe?

Move is doing things differently because the camera in its system is usable in game. Which can allow it to do some of the things Natal can do , like augmented reality, head and body tracking, object recognition... Augmented reality is the big difference here that Natal and Move can do that the Wii can't. This is demonstrated in EyePet and Move party. Sony has been doing AR for years with eyetoy and playstationeye but to have this type of system merged with tactile controls and haptic feedback should make it significantly more compelling. Those anticipating Natal will be disappointed at its inability to control traditional core games. It will lend itself to casual and party games but developers are going to have to create new experiences for a controllerless system. Anyone who has played with a playstation eye or eyetoy can attest to the fact that controllerless is not such a wonderful innovation and it is very limiting as to what your game genres can be. Certainly you can use Natal alongside a regular controller. This just reminds me of the "tacked on" feeling that six axis controls often suffer from.

It remains to be seen what Natal developers create but its hard to imagine hardcore games with the 200ms lag and inaccuracy as well as the 15% cpu usage. Even when they demod it with Burnout the handson said there was no analogue control of acceleration and that Natal would only detect full gas, or full break. Digit (finger) positioning can only be detected at close range so its hard to imagine using it as a "trigger" motion. I just cant see how this control method is superior to Move or Wii for traditional games. The only thing that I could see it useful for is as an addition to a system like Move, I really think that the controller is a necessary component. If Natal were to add a motion controller then I would see it as the superior system. Right now I just see it as an improved eyetoy and that is NOT a good thing, as my experience with camera controlled controllerless games is not good.

you tell 'em.