CESA: 5.2 million illegal downloads of Dissidia: Final Fantasy in Japan

Sony hired* DarkAlex :(



*hired means either killed, kidnapped, shot to moon, moved to internet-less country, payed off, hired, dropped into wormhole, feed to the kraken, turned into CEO's house boy

On-topic: Wow.. I never thought that piracy was that big a deal in Japan. Very odd. :|

Off-topic (In reply to the comments): I don't know if a PSP2 can really help. Admittedly they seem to have done an amazing job with the PS3, but for how long can they keep a PSP2 unhackable?

The PSPGo will also fall with time unfortunately, it just takes time.

Also, DarkAlex is kind of a dick. I don't know why you'd be sad he's gone. He essentially helped people cheat companies out of millions of dollars of money due to his work in the piracy scene.

@oldmanpip - That was my take on it as well. As a long time anime viewer, I've heard stories for years about how the Japanese felt far more guilty than Americans when pirating things. This has always been used to explain why fansubs (well...not subs since it's in their native language) of anime have never really impacted the Japanese side of the anime industry in the way that it has the American side.

I guess that a new generation has popped up in Japan that just doesn't care. That generation is maturing here in the U.S I'd say; People my age (early twenties) tend to at least feel a little bit guilty if they are pirating things, and some of us don't pirate things at all (I myself being this type of rare, unicorn-esque creature). Talk to someone even a few years younger than me, and they don't seem to feel any sense of guilt, even if they are stealing from charity (you know who you are; people that pirated the indie pack a while ago)

I think the takeaway here is that gaming devices need to get more secure, whether they are mobile, or stationary. The PS3 is a nice example; a few years in, and we're at hello world, compared to the PSP which was modded almost immediately (same story with the Wii) and has an enormous piracy rate. Is there any reason why a handheld can't be as secure as the PS3? (I'm asking this question seriously)

Guys, I really don't see why the PSP2 could be "unhackable".
I mean the DSi isn't hacked yet, and it's nearly 2 years old.

(Please don't tell me about the AK2i, that's only hacked the standard DS functionality, which is actually a whole different system with different processors and RAM and shit. Saying the DSi is hacked because it can run pirated standard DS games is, on a technical level, like saying the PS3 is hacked because it can play pirated PS2 games.)

The DSi IS hacked and you can run every DSi game on an "i" flashcart, complete with Wi-Fi functionality.

Hey guise no one is going to win here. We all know the internet is no place for valid opinions.

I pirated a lot more when I was younger, but now that I'm older and have a job, I just buy the games.

I dunno, but I also felt overwhelmed with having too many pirated games that I couldn't pick something to play and stick with. With a smaller collection of real games, I feel my choices of something worth playing are simplified.

But you'll have to pry my SNES rom collection away from my cold, dead body.

No shit, mertruve.
I meant the DSi as a platform.
Again, it's like saying the PS3 is hacked because you can run pirated PS2 games off of it.

The DSi and DS actually have different hardware, and only the DS hardware has been hacked.

PSP piracy has always been worse than DS and Wii piracy combined.

As long as you keep paying full-price, Nintendo is never going to bring back Player's Choice Games. I don't understand people that say they buy Nintendo games on release day because they never drop prices anymore and they complain about the lack of Player's Choice Games. That was exactly Nintendo's intent to make you buy on release day.

Are you people dense or something?

even if we stop buying the games on release date, do you really still think they would bring back PC's games? I don't think so, I can see the game no longer being on the shelves and we would only be able to find it used.

Fatal Frame 4 in Japan did just that. Which Nintendo published.

I doubt the sales of Zelda twilight princess are still super high since launch, but it's still there at full price on store shelves.

Most Nintendo games continue to sell well after release but not all, those ones, just disappear.

Plus, most Nintendo games rule, I don't mind buying full price for a really good game. Which I've already stated. *can't wait for Metroid Other M* YAHHHHHHH!

I'm not saying anything against you buying Nintendo games, I'm saying that buying them and complaining about the lack of PC makes no sense. Also Nintendo doesn't do this because games keep selling for a lot of time.

The principle is that if there's PC some people are gonna wait for it to drop in price to buy it, if there's no PC then those people would pay full price. So the only way to brig back PC is to stop buying the games, so Nintendo realizes the lost of sales, as long as the games keep selling at full price as much as they used to sell when there was PC then PC is not coming back.

So you have to not buy Nintendo games if you want PC back, if you can't do that then don't complain.

They're still more likely to go out of print than on sale with PC if you don't buy them.

Erm the US/EU dissedia was a different game to the JP one, we got the arcade mode, balanced out moves and a bunch of extra features that was released later on to the JP market as a seperate package.

Along with all the text that needs translating, voice acting recorded, other localizing etc theres quite a bit of work to do, it was a massive job for them to get FF13 out to all areas on the same day, let alone a game that they have to make sure is localized properly to keep it in track with localaization changes on previous games.

I understand it requires a lot of work, but that doesn't change the fact that the wait charges quite a bit of incentive to pirate. Say you have a PSP, and it's either already modded, or you can get it modded that week. You can either get it within that week at the latest, or wait an entire 6+ months for a localized version of the game. Bonus content, while noteworthy, doesn't change the fact that half a year prior to that version of the game being released, there was all sorts of reason to pirate it. By the time it released in Japan, we didn't even have an official confirmation it was headed our way, if I recall correctly.

And yet you ignored luke's other point. The benefit of pirating a game to get it earlier and yet not being able to read and understand what's going on or what a skill or item does, is?

In a game like Dissidia, it doesn't really matter. Now for some people such as myself, reading Japanese isn't exactly what I'd call a barrier seeing as how I'm somewhat fluent in it. For others? If you're decent enough with browsing the Internet to find and download the game, chances are you can find a translation text file, or you can figure out at least how to get into gameplay without killing your PSP. It's a fighting game with fanservice written all over it. You don't need to know what's going on to enjoy it.

I downloaded the demo and came to the same conclusion.

Lol the comments like these are priceless.

Whether you downloaded it or not just to see what it's like doesn't change the fact you're still pirating the game. You could have bought that game in a store and not liked it. And if you had liked the game, you wouldn't have bought the game in the first place. It's a really stupid argument.

It's similar to the argument that you pirate games because there are no good games on the PSP or that you don't like Sony because they don't provide enough support for the PSP. Yet they don't realise because they're pirating the games that it's not worth it for Sony to support the platform or for developers to support it either. >.<

Pirates are lame and should be shot. :(

No because the way I see it, it's exactly the same as downloading a demo?
I just wanted to see what the game was like.
I love when people act like they have never downloaded anything illegally ever...

"You could have bought that game in a store and not liked it. And if you had liked the game, you wouldn't have bought the game in the first place. It's a really stupid argument."
Yeah that is a really stupid arguement... Mainly because it doesn't make sense?

I have 2 PSPs, one which I play things I've bought on, the other to try games out or play GBA emulator on.
So yeah, please skip the high and mighty act.

@oldmanpip

I'm going to play devil's advocate for the sake of argument...

What damage does piracy really do when it comes to video games? Some would say that it loses companies some odd amount of dollars...

Let's think about that for a second, these video games are not taken from a store and no physical property is destroyed! Technically speaking no actual money is lost. What is lost is a "potential sale." Someone could have bought the game instead of downloading it illegally. A potential sale shouldn't carry any real weight...You could announce you candidacy for president tomorrow, should you "potential presidency" get you pull on your resume? Let's clear something up...The majority of people who do pirate, have a modded system from in mind at purchase. Those are sales of systems that wouldn't have happened, given that those people never intended to have that entertainment at the price a company was asking for.

Most people can who can afford to buy games do, with a small margin of people who don't. While a good chunk of pirates cannot afford the games in the first place meaning there were no potential sales to be had! If you could divide up the people who can afford to buy, but choose to pirate...You could divide this group into habitual pirates and intentional pirates. Habitual pirates do so simply because they can and don't understand why they should have to pay in the first place...Once again no potential sales! In the case of intentional pirates, you have a couple smaller groups. First is the disenfranchised consumer, someone who simply pirates out of spite. They have had a negative experience with the company and feel they are owed something...Some of them will eventually fall back into the fold, but until then, they are also not potential sales. [This group is what piracy is about!]

The other group is the most important one, the cautious consumer...Like our friend Den-69! These people have been around since the beginning of time! They like to try things before they buy, but the option to do so legally is non-existent. Not everything does have a demo. Some people would look down on them, but I don't! All of us have purchased an over hyped game that was completely horrible. The company that made it isn't held accountable generally speaking. The companies will know they are shipping a game littered with bugs and advertise it like it's the best game on earth...Some people would say wait on the reviews, but all of us have also probably played a game that we enjoyed thoroughly and critics panned. There really isn't a way to know for sure without trying and to some people spending that much money on something that might not be something they want, isn't worth it. Sure there are time when pirates discover that they don't like a game, but even then...They don't play through the game and get the full experience. In the cases that they do actually go out and buy the game [probably not accounted for in the study]. Pirating games actually created potential sales, as the people pirating wouldn't have made the purchase while unsure about it.

Other people will say that not supporting the company leads to future decline game production...This is a complicated argument!

A great many things lead to a company making decisions about what games they will make! I will say though, that the sales divisions of these companies have projected figures of piracy for their products...In the same breath I will say that they ONLY question that decides whether or not a game will be made is, "Will this game be profitable?" The question of whether or not the pirating number factor into this is debatable. Most often a game is not made, because the install base that had supported it has taken a considerable drop in the previous iteration of the game.

Buying games to "support" a company or IP is foolish at best! To serve yourself as a consumer, you should buy games that you like! It's the only way to ensure that game quality improves. A great example of this rests with EA! They are notorious for pumping out the same game every year with a couple feature upgrades and a new interface...They ship with bugs in the hundreds. Being the monopoly in sports gaming, they did what any company would in their situation...Maximized profit! They placed small teams on each game, changing very little and the same cost as the year before. With very little new code written, they earned the value of the original engine several times over! Years of loyal purchases resulted in lower quality games...In the recent years as their sales are dropping, their game quality is steadily increasing. It is their job to make their share holder's profit, even if it be at cost to you the consumer! Your continued support in a lot of cases leads to continually falling quality and bigger bonuses for the higher ups!

A good chunk of developer's complained about the cost of Sony Dev kit's and some of them have experience with bad documentation/support in the past. A better reason whay the PSP lacks support is the fact that there are less than half as many PSPs than Nintendo DS floating about in the market. This makes your choice a complete no brainer. The PR for DS is amazing and they have continually shown an increase in sales each year. A larger market means more money and it's as simple as that!

"No because the way I see it, it's exactly the same as downloading a demo?"

If there was no demo for the game then MAYBE i would see your point, but in this case there was one. I hate that games out there don't have demos any more (yet they try to lock you in and remove resale value) and reviews arn't always the best in indicator of game quality (case in point, spent 25 hours enjoying alpha protocol , that according to most reviews, was crap), but downloading the entire game "to try it out" is not a valid excuse, wait a coupel of weeks to see actual feedback from proper people then decide.

@ KobaltKode

"The other group is the most important one, the cautious consumer...Like our friend Den-69! These people have been around since the beginning of time! They like to try things before they buy, but the option to do so legally is non-existent. Not everything does have a demo."

No not everything has a demo, but this one does. And there is no legal right to ANY product to try before you buy, its not just games. Any stores that do a try before you buy thing are being nice, there is no legal reason to do so.

My god are there some odd arguments at play here. First of all, no one is entitled to a demo. You'd like one, but no one owes you one, no matter how much you want it. Second of all, pirating a game is pirating a game, whether or not you like it. Have you heard of Gamefly? Their entire business centers around rentals. You may not think you are depriving anyone of any money by pirating a game and then deleting it because you hate it, but you are. Had you not had the opportunity to play a demo (or a pirated copy in your case) you probably would either have rented the game, or bought it, which obviously would have generated revenue for multiple companies either way.

Someone else tried to argue that piracy doesn't hurt the industry (in this case anyway..) because a digital copy isn't physical, and thus nothing was actually lost. Most governments (if not all) have a system that addresses this, based on the idea of "intellectual property". Sure you aren't "stealing" a physical item, but you sure as hell are "stealing" an intellectual property, which directly impacts developers. Believe it or not, but a lot of people aren't honest, and wouldn't buy things they pirated and liked, since they..you know...have a pirated copy already. Even if you can't understand why intellectual property theft is damaging, it is, end of story (to different degrees certainly; EA will feel the pinch less than 2D boy for instance).

I often argue with zealots (usually over anime) that copyright infringement should always be a civil matter and not a criminal one. Having said that, my reasoning for this position is that there is absolutely no way to determine the individual that committed the infringement. This means that grandparents, parents, neighbors with open wifi, and other innocents would get put through the wringer wrongfully if it were a criminal offense (they get put through the wringer civilly, but I find that preferable to the alternative). I don't hold this position because I condone piracy, or anything of that nature. If there were a way to go "Ok, Bill from 421 North First Street was caught on camera downloading Dissidia" I'd be all for a ticketing system (ala speeding/parking/etc) to be implemented. There is obviously no way to do anything of the sort without trampling over civil liberties though, so I remain firm in my belief that it should be a civil matter (I also think they should be entitled to no more than maybe five to ten times the actual value of the infringed material; download a song, pay them five dollars for instance, but that is a discussion for another time).

The idea that piracy is some noble cause is dead to me. The excuses come fast and furious (there isn't a demo, there is strong DRM, etc) and they may seem somewhat legitimate, until people refuse to name their own damn price for an indie bundle benefitting charity, and choose to pirate it instead. No one needs a reason to pirate, and it all bundles down to "I wanted it, it was available, so I downloaded it" when you actually stop and think about it.

(To be fair, on a morality scale from moral to amoral, I'd put copyright infringement right above jaywalking, and right below running a red light. This is more of a disappointed shake of the head than a wag of the finger.)


/soapbox

You guys defending this garbage are all nuts. Pirating is wrong, period. If there's no demo, try renting the game. How do you expect games to get made when the people who make them don't make any money on them? You're not just taking money from Square Enix. You're taking money from the lowly artists, coders, QA testers--everyone. And driving up prices for people like me who actually buy the game.

If you can't afford the game, too bad. Get a job. Or ask your Mommy.

And, for my money, Dissisia was worth every penny. I bought it on launch day and still play it all the time. I've logged over 100 hours on it. It's got numerous playstyles, gametypes, controls wonderfully, and is basically a fanservice for everyone who's loved FF.

Hiroken, your logic is faulty. If I were to rent every game before I bought them, it would increase the cost of games from $60 up to $60+rental costs. Seeing as you can't buy a game and take it back if it is horrible (same with movies and music), then downloading a trial copy is the only way to not waste your money when there is no demo available.

When you give these companies $60 for games that are absolutely terrible, you are encouraging them to rip you off in the future.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with downloading a game to see if you like it. As long as, if you like it you go out and buy it if you are going to keep playing it. Otherwise I do have some moral qualms with it. Not to mention the fact that a lot of demos are NOT representative of the game as a whole, and generally do not depict the game as it actually is.

Anymore I don't buy new games really. In the last like 2 years I have purchased 2 games for full price (Demons' Souls and 3DDGH), otherwise I wait until they are on sale for $20 or less and call it a day. That way I am not getting ripped off if the game is absolutely horrible.

Piracy is a direct result of the fact that retailers will not allow you to return games and movies. People would be a LOT more willing to plunk down $60 for a game if they knew they could return it if it sucked. Yes, there will always be people who game the system, but those people are everywhere in every industry.

@ AcidBurn

You do realise that no company is legally entiled to refund you just because you don't like it. Any stores like Argos etc which have a 7 day no quibbles return are just being nice and even then its normally only if its unopened. Why should games be any different?

If anything your logic is massivly faulty anyway

"If I were to rent every game before I bought them, it would increase the cost of games from $60 up to $60+rental costs. Seeing as you can't buy a game and take it back if it is horrible (same with movies and music), then downloading a trial copy is the only way to not waste your money when there is no demo available."

I was under the impression there were places you woudl pay a monthly fee for and get as many games as you want, so rental costs woudln't be all that much, and you only have to rent teh stuff that there is no demos for.

I mean there are always other ways to see if a game is any good, i mean there are just a few websites out there that review games, show videos, theres the old "go into the store" idea as well to see ifits playable there. THere are pleanty of other ways to get a idea if you like the game.

Also while you can't get the full money back you can still do a trade in with console games, its why if theres a game i'm not sure if i will like but wanna take a risk, i get the console version over the PC version, its a ltitle more expensive but at least i can get some money back afterwards.

Ah yes, I forgot that every store has every game on trial for me to be able to play before I buy it, kudos for pointing that out....

My point about $60+rental cost still stands. It doesn't matter if you are paying a $20 monthly fee, or you are paying $5 per game you rent, it still adds on to the already overpriced cost.

Do people have to accept returns? I don't know if there is a law that states they must, but the vast majority of products are returnable if you are not satisfied, why should video games/movies be any different?

I don't download full versions. I try demos from XBL and PSN if I want to try a game out, but I generally just avoid demos and won't buy games until they are $20 or less. (Demos are generally horrible at depicting actual gameplay. Like Dark Void, the demo was absolutely horrible, but I bought the game for $15 and I absolutely loved it. Thats why the full version download would have a better indicator of how the game actually is).

Reviews are, in my opinion, a terrible way to see if a game is good or not. Too many different websites with horrible rating scales and horrible reviewers. There have been a lot of critically acclaimed games I hated, but a lot of games universally panned that I really enjoyed.

From a moral standpoint, as someone up above said, downloading a game is about is amoral as jaywalking. (and yes, I have works that have been "stolen", and no I don't care because those people aren't my customers anyway)

I'd say 90% of people who are anti-piracy and preach about it have at least downloaded something illegally in their life. A song? A game? A video?
I used to download PC games, I don't anymore I buy them all.
When I downloaded dissidia, it wasn't out in my country yet, I tried it, didn't like it and deleted it.
I rarely buy any handheld games anymore, I don't have time to play them and that doesn't mean I'm downloading them all, I just don't play much anymore.

I first put custom firmware on my PSP to play PS1 games, and now that I can officially play PS1 games on there, I've bought them all.
So I've essentially bought games I already own and could already play freely but so that I can do it officially.

I hate hypocrites.

@ den-69

Yes, there are some anti-piracy folk who may be hypocrites, but what difference does that make. It certainly doesn't make their arguments any less true. Pirates who try to justify their actions with a tu quoque fallacy really get on my nerves.

@den-69 -

That's like saying that someone who did drugs in their youth can't tell kids not to do it now. It doesn't make them a hypocrite, unless they are still currently doing it. I personally don't, but I never claimed any moral high ground in the argument either (except over the people that stole from charity...). Like I said, copyright infringement isn't exactly a sin, but it does directly harm people in the industry (all the way down to game testers), and anyone claiming that it doesn't is just wrong.

I don't know how some kids could have lived in the nineties. I used to buy crap games ALL the time. Superman 64? I totally bought it, on launch day. The Matrix game for the PS2? Launch day. I've been burned by awful games so many damn times, but that doesn't mean I feel entitled to a demo. You don't get a demo of a movie (subsequently, I've paid plenty to see terrible movies at the theater), or a play, or a concert, or most other things. Again, it would be nice if all companies offered demo's, but no one is entitled to one.

My copy of "Michael Jordan: Chaos in the Windy City" for the SNES says hello by the way.

@Hiroken ('Pirating is wrong, period') - Well, I'm glad you've obviated the need for any more discussion on any philosophical issue, ever! If we want to know the answer to something in future we'll just ask hiroken and he'll give the definitive answer.

Pirating is absolutely not 'wrong, period'. At most it's 'illegal, period'. Get rid of that 'period' and there are certainly many people who think piracy is wrong - but there are also many people who think it isn't wrong, or at least not in all situations. I'm one of them. I don't think piracy is clearly wrong in any situation; even in the many situations where it's probably somewhat wrong, it's nowhere near as wrong as actual theft. But that's just my opinion. Period.

As for the original article, are we just believing those 5 million values? I mean, they got the number by adding up totals from various tracker sites and so on, I think - are we certain none of these sites actually shared the same back-end, do the sites lie to make themselves seem like a better source, were all those downloads working copies or did some people have to DL a broken one and then a working one (counting twice), etc... To be honest, this type of data I'd rather see obtained by a well-run survey. 5 million is about a quarter of PSP owners in Japan (and that's assuming nobody ever bought 2 PSPs without giving the old one to someone else). You wouldn't need to interview more than a few hundred randomly-selected PSP owners to confirm that figure... provided we could ensure the survey answers ('Did you pirate Dissidia?') were honest, which might be a problem.

@ AcidBurn

"Do people have to accept returns? I don't know if there is a law that states they must, but the vast majority of products are returnable if you are not satisfied, why should video games/movies be any different?"

No, there is now law that states that they must (In the UK, and our laws tend to be more consumer friendly than US), and no, the vast majority of products are not fully returnable if you are not satisfied. Not return for a full refund anyway, you may have to take a hit on teh money you get back or accept a trade in. Again , if it is done it is done by the retailer at the retailers discretion, they have decided that they do not want to do this on games due to people copying them and bringing them back and them having a big load of games that they cannot sell. The closest you have is trade in.

"Ah yes, I forgot that every store has every game on trial for me to be able to play before I buy it, kudos for pointing that out...."

I never said they did, i said you could TRY going into the store, they may have it on display, one at the back you can have a quick go on, a nice store clerk who has played it (jsut make sure to test them to see if they have actually played it and arn't just selling). Word of advice, stop putting words in peoples mouths.

"Reviews are, in my opinion, a terrible way to see if a game is good or not. Too many different websites with horrible rating scales and horrible reviewers. There have been a lot of critically acclaimed games I hated, but a lot of games universally panned that I really enjoyed."

Yes in many place i have said this (i think i even said it somewhere in this thread), i loved alpha protocol but it was panned by many reviews BUT NOT ALL. You have to browse many review places because reviews are peopels opinions, they are not all the same so don'tjust hit one site, read loads. Its a bit of common sense really :/

"From a moral standpoint, as someone up above said, downloading a game is about is amoral as jaywalking. (and yes, I have works that have been "stolen", and no I don't care because those people aren't my customers anyway)""

While i don't know where i stand on piracy on teh whole, I hate that the publisher take us as consumers for a ride but the best way ito counter this is simply to not play the game in anyway. By pirating the game you are breaking the law, it is immoral, it is closer to stealing than jaywalking, the only reason it isn't stealing is because no physical item has been taken, its still there to sell.

"My point about $60+rental cost still stands. It doesn't matter if you are paying a $20 monthly fee, or you are paying $5 per game you rent, it still adds on to the already overpriced cost."

And my point about buying consoles so you can trade them in still stands (which you neatly sidestepped) so you can get some money back on games you don't like.It does add extra, but you can always just... you know, not buy the games if you can't afford them. In fact the rental option might even be better for you if you really hate games like you seem to , just rent, complete , hadn back, there you go have saved you $60

Why do people think they are entiled to stuff they can't afford to have?

Basically you havn't actually countered any of my points, just made the same slightly immature argument again that its "not wrong".It is, most people that do it just accept that it is and if they get a warning will jsut stop, simple as that, teh worse kind are hte ones that make themselves out to be robin hood (despite pirating the games pack that was being sold for charity).

If you will notice from my replies, I do not download games. I do not play games I do not purchase. Affording new games is not a problem. The problem is publisher's putting out shit games and wanting full price for them, even though they are bug filled crap shoots. I simply wait 6+ months for patches to be released, the games to drop to what I deem a fair price, etc. I don't hate games, quite the opposite actually. I own 200+ games. I purchased a PSP less than 6 months ago and I have already purchased 30+ games for it. I love it, its fantastic. I even bought Dissidia. Had there of been a demo for Dissidia(I have no idea if there is, I never would have purchased the game, because I hated it at first. I had to play a few hours to get into it to really enjoy it.

I don't download games, at all. I don't have the time or the patience to find the game i want, download it, and hope it works. I go to the store, find the game I want on the shelf buy it and play it. Although, with the PSP I make images of the games I own so I can play them from a memory stick. Technically that is copyright infringement, but it is very far from immoral.

Also, I did not "neatly sidestep" anything, I just forgot to respond to it. Sure, you can trade in games if you want. Go out and buy a brand new $60 game, learn it sucks and trade it in. You will be lucky to get $30 for it. Thats an expensive lesson to learn that a game sucks. Thats where demos, even though they aren't the best representation, come into play. And no, no one is obligated to put out a demo nor are consumers owed anything. If theres no demo I can play, I typically will just avoid the game. I have been burned too many times, and I am not going to waste money anymore.

Piracy, as in finally gaining money by making copies of others work, is immoral and illegal. Someone downloading a movie/game/music for their own personal consumption, is technically illegal is some countries, but it is usually not immoral. There are way too many reasons people pirate to make a blanket statement about it being immoral. (also, copyright infringement is not stealing the same that murder is not arson, this has been debated time and time again)

Acid:

I wasn't going to bother replying, but a couple of things you said were so absurd I had to point them out:

1. You mentioned that demos are "not representative of the game as a whole". So by that you mean that you can't know if you like a game until you've played it all the way through. Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say for a second that's true. After all, Brutal Legend's demo wasn't very indicative of the whole game. Are you actually saying that if you download a game, play it to completion and love it, that you'll go out and purchase a full-priced new copy after you've beaten it?

No. I'm guessing you'll buy it used. But the people who made the game still don't get any of that money.

2. You don't want to rent games because, Aw Gee, then you have to spend even MORE money if you actually like it and want to play it. Well, guess what? You don't HAVE to buy it--you GET to. These are real products made by real people. This is their job. This is how they feed their dog and pay for their shitty apartment and buy Manwich.

I see buying games as a privilege. Am I careful with my purchases? You're goddamn right I am. I don't have money to burn and I work hard. It would be really easy to hack my PSP. I've got the know-how and the resources. But I work for a living and I value the work that other people do. If I don't have the money to buy the game I want at the moment, (a situation I'm dying from right now with Peace Walker), too bad. I have to wait until I can buy it. Stealing is not an option.

You come out and justify your actions by saying "I can't like a game based on demos, reviews, or anything else. I HAVE to play the whole thing, for free, when it comes out," (even though you claim to wait to buy games when they're cheap, you still WANT to play them when they're released, so you steal them.

Justify it however you want. What you're doing is still wrong.

And, Sam: Any time.

Hiroken,

I think you must not have much in the way of reading comprehension. I stated multiple times that I do not download games. So, let me say it one more time and maybe this will get through to you: I do not download games. I do not commit copyright infringement, piracy, stealing, theft, whatever else you want to call it. I buy every single one of my games, EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Also, you made a very large leap in what I said. I said demos are often not representative of the actual end product. This is, in my experience, largely true, however I never once stated that because of this it was OK to play the entire game through after downloading. If you read my comments, what I actually said was that I think it is OK to download a game to treat as a demo, but if you keep it and finish it without buying it then I have moral qualms with it.


As is evident from my comments, Piracy is illegal and immoral, downloading something for personal use is sometimes immoral, but not always.

Guys the character assassinations devalue the argument as a whole! There is no need for it...

To all of you who say piracy is wrong...I have one question for you! WHY? Outside of the obvious reason of the law. Arguing right and wrong on a moral standpoint is practically a moot...We can scream at each other over right and wrong in that regard and never change anyone's mind on the subject. Morality is a matter of perspective, not fact!

When people site that the law makes it wrong,...It make me wonder why we have the law. Originally, this law did not encompass games. As a matter of fact, I remember news reports some years back about how much of a gray area it was. The only thing I can imagine is some lobbyist helping to make it a law for the video game industry, because they're figures showed that they could increase sales by guarding against piracy...Also, at the time the law was passed, people were actually selling the illegal copies of games on the streets in other countries. It wasn't put into place because the industry was dying or poor mom and pop game companies were dropping like flies. I can understand the need to stop other people from profiting off of your work...But does the law still deliver the justice it was intended to and should it really apply to this? In the case of people who do download the game and play it to completion, I can see some fault here. The intent is to consume without paying! In the case of Den-69...I'd say not so much!

As a whole the burden is placed on the consumer in America and honestly speaking I don't think that it's the way it should be! It's "Buyer Beware" not "Large companies stop selling crap products." The systems in action are built by the companies with enough money to push paper in congress! They are acting in their own best interest and not ours. There has to be a middle grounds, just like we are not entitled to have free games...They should not be entitled to fleece us and sell us games that are pretty much lemons. The equation here is kind of lopsided and the fact that companies exist to make profit on it is silly. If you walk into the deli at a supermarket and if you want to know if a particular cut of meat is good...They will generally break you off a piece! You don't have to go to a sandwich meat rental store to get a try before you buy to avoid loss. Not to mention that the, relatively speaking, high price points involved makes this even more of an issue...

Say there's this guy on the side of the road...You stop by and he holds a box in front of you. He says, I will let you have what is inside this box for $60 dollars. You ask, what's in the box? He replies, I can't tell you...But trust me it's worth it! You pay him the money and he runs off leaving you with a box filled with dog turds. Most of you would say that you wouldn't purchase the mystery box at that price, but in the same breath...Most of you do every time you buy a game with the faith that it is going to be good! It's an unfair system in my opinion. They are selling is the sizzle, not the steak!

I do think it is wrong to counter a wrong with another wrong, but I think it is worst for them to expect you to follow the rules while they take liberty to break them. Good games should earn them sales, not a system that is designed to put the consumer at the short end of the stick! Corporations have no common decency and at large aren't held responsible for the crimes they commit against us. I need someone to explain to me why what we do is wrong and why what they do isn't!

I know industry professionals who pirate software until the day they have to pay for the license! I have heard horror stories from my friends about choices made at our expense...Like bugs that are considered acceptable and shipped regardless! NDAs are broken every minute. I guess I have a different view of things, due to how close I am to the industry...In the end, every company comes down to shares and people at the top of things wanting more bang for their buck! I have no delusions about how hard they work for me, because I see exactly how hard they do...I have friends who make obscene amounts of money, charging for 40-80 work weeks and doing the actual work in the span of a couple days...Just as I have friends who don't see daylight for weeks on end working their fingers to the bone, making just enough to get by...One in particular gets payed around 70 dollars and hour by Zynga to practically play WoW all day...Maybe the corporate culture has left me a bit cynical, but I trust that they are obligated to provide a good product about as far as I could throw them!

Someone earlier stated that no one allows you to try before you buy! Just for fun...Ice cream stores [free sample ice cream], grocery stores [produce, baked goods and delis offer sampling], book stores [allows the reading of books/magazines in-store], game stores [gameplay stations], music stores [listening stations], etc etc...The list goes on and on. America started out this way, sampling is the drive behind competitive business! Once you remove it and force people to gamble their money on product, the companies have a license to steal from you! All of us know from prior game experience that they will!

Wow, lotta polarizing opinions here, eh?

I'll kick in my 2 cents, since everyone else is.

There are 2 problems in the video game industry the way I see it.

1) There are no "anti-lemon" rules protecting consumers from sucky games, and most games do not have legitimate demos. Even systems with solid demo systems in place (like the 360) don't have demos for everything--if you want to try FFXIII, you need to purchase it in full. Everyone who's been burned by a crappy game purchase, raise your hand! If your hand isn't raised, then you're either a fortune teller or a liar.

What's more, with game purchases, you cannot return them if they suck (well, if opened, but how do you know something sucks without opening it?). And game reviews are a poor substitute for hands-on time, as every reviewer has a different opinion. Case in point: one reviewer gave Grabbed by the Ghoulies--an AWFUL game--a 90 out of 100. If anything, I'd say piracy is, for a large subsection of gamers, an ad hoc demo system.

The problem could be resolved by a robust, legit demo system IMO. And yes, while Dissidia did have a demo, lets not forget that 1) you need to get it from PSN, which you cannot access with a modded PSP (and people mod their PSPs for a variety of legit reasons, such as homebrew, classic gaming emulation, etc).

2) Legit demos often are not fair indicators of the full game. The demo of Brutal Legend would lead one to believe the game is a platformer. However, the full game more closely approximates a strategy title. Game makers can (and IMO often do) stitch together the best of the game in order to give it an unfair positive "tilt." There needs to be more transparency in the demo making process.

***

Before anyone jumps on me for being a "pirate defending piracy," I'd like to point out that due to my "try before buy" personal ethic, I've purchased Civ IV, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Mirror's Edge, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Batman Arkham Asylum, GTA: Chinatown Wars, Metal Gear Portable Ops, Daxter, and countless others I can't recall at the moment.

Oh, and I tried Dissidia for all of maybe 10 minutes and then put it in the trash bin where it belonged.

I admire your skills in the area of scientifical researchification and observationality.

I don't get your argument. :\ Please explain.

Ahem I do believe I said SCIENCE. Good DAY sir.

Hear hear! I was going to refute that statement until I realized that I can't argue with science

Logic, Statistics, AND Science.

Impressive team is impressive.