Mortal Kombat creator says complexity of fighting games hurts sales

Serious fighter fans will disagree, but I do agree, casual fighter fans like myself enjoy button mashing and learning the odd technique along the way from it.

@Cypher FDP

Uh, he's kind of right. I really enjoyed BlazBlue, but heck, if you don't want to get slaughtered online, you better be ready to spend a number of hours memorizing complex button inputs. Oh, and make sure you pick a top tier character. This level of complexity can be fun, but not everyone wants to pour so much time into it. I tried to get my friends into it, and the fact that I already knew a combo or two meant I could tear them apart. The learning curve for a match to be more than button mashing is very high.

This is why the Smash Bros. series succeeded so well. Very easy to get into, next to no memorization involved, yet still much depth.

@Cypher FDP

Actually, it's the "complex" games that become button mashing heaven for most people. When patterns are complicated just for the sake of it.

I think there's room for both but I will admit I have much more fun playing games most people can play or learn quickly rather than play games made for elitist snobs.

I think that's one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed a fighting game in years. Most real life people don't care for them and the people online love to exploit stupid tricks and loopholes to win.

@MrAlex
Agreed. Its all about spamming the C-stick on melee and brawl
Mr. Game and Watch is frickin amazing like that (im not even kidding)

I miss the times when you didn't have to put "[/sarcasm]" after an obvious joke.

Ed Boon = Sylar

@Cypher FDP Shy is this downvoted, am I the only one that noted the sarcastic tone of his comment? Button mashers piss me off to no end. There is no incentive to learn a deep fighting system if some jackass can just spam and win every time.

@MrAlex
Sweet find dude. I didn't know that. I had a feeling that name wasn't just some random thing they pulled from a hat.

@MrAlex

Not really a find, you can read it on wikipedia and stuff, just kinda throwing it out there for those who didn't know.

@Kurian
Perhaps he meant Ultimate MK3: The best MK game there ever was... until now?

@Daugon

Soul Calibur IV was COMPLICATED?!?

@Cypher FDP Yes it was quite complicated. It had a counter system, a charge system, a finishing move system. And it entirely relied on strung together combos that were commonly 5 button presses.
Anything that has more than just directional attacks (like Super Smash Bros) is a complicated fighter. You can count me as one the gamers that are turned off by 'real' fighters. I am not interested in learning the dynamics of a fighter to be good at it. It takes a long time to be good at a fighter as compared to a FPS or a adventure game. I only play like Smash Bros because its a fun party game and that's all I care about.

@Daugon

I'll agree with you except for:
It takes a long time to be good at a fighter as compared to a FPS or a adventure game.

If my SSFIV expereince has taught me one thing, it's that ANYBODY can be a good Ken player.

@Daugon Super Smash Bros is great. The controls are simple and the game is very easy to understand, but there is still enough depth to the game for it to be played on a professional level.

@BigD145

I have to agree with this because if nothing else most of the fighting game fans you will find online have no respect for Ed Boon or his shitty franchise.

Ed, if you are reading this please don't bother taking any of what I have said about Mortal Kombat over the years into consideration when developing this new game; you lost any hope of me buying or playing your shitty games long ago.

@BigD145

"Good opinions are drowned out by the masses of terrible opinions. But, that's just opinion"

http://www.dahmus.org/blogimg/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

@MooseMuffin

"I get two sentences into explaining links, cancels and crossups and they're already bored."
Yeah, I probably would, too. You should just start with the basics; I let all my friends fight against each other, and when someone lost a couple times I'd tell him how to do, say, a quarter-circle and then send him back into the fray. Little baby steps.

@Mehbah

Wow, I was going to give you an actual reply but when your argument is preceded by:

"And pointing out how very stupid this is is going to get me declared an idiot and downvoted, because people refuse to think about this. Trying to speak some sense gets you declared a troll, casual and moron, instantly."

It really makes it seem like you're not really willing to listen to somebody else's opinion. You've already declared yourself the Harbinger of All that is Right; why would I respond to that?

@Acosta

Maybe, but he's absolutely right. The player wants harder controls rather than the game itself. But I don't think that's a bad thing, I think both are simple and complex controls have their ups and downs.

@Mehbah

"The challenge should be in using the right moves in the right situations and at the right times, not in executing complex series of directions quickly. In other words, strategy rather than muscle memory."

I couldn't agree with that more. I enjoyed BlazBlue, but it was simply a battle of who spent more hours tuning their muscles to button inputs. This kind of common fighting system is really nothing more than a grind to memorize with strategy and intelligence factoring in very little.

@Mehbah

@Acosta02

Because I'm right? There's absolutely no possible way to argue that combinations is a good thing. They add literally nothing, unless you have literally hundreds of them, in which case they could allow you to have more moves. And there aren't any games out there, to my knowledge, that do have that many moves for a single character.

These control schemes serve no purpose whatsoever but to make fighting games unplayable without overpriced, giant special controllers, and put off people who otherwise would love to play these games.

Let me repeat myself: Button and direction combinations literally do not add anything. There is no possible way to create a serious fighting game with enough moves that you couldn't, with some common sense, map them to a controller by using a better control scheme. You use the controller to - that's right - control the game. Have you ever heard "easy to learn, hard to master"? Because that's what any good competitive game or sport is supposed to be like. The control schemes these games use are the equivalent of having to use two meter sticks to move your chess pieces, using stilts to play football, or using your voice the accelerate, brake and steer your car rather than your hands. All of these are so clearly horribly stupid, but fighting games get a free pass for absolutely no good reason. The fandom is so stuck in the mindset that a fighting game HAS to force you to move your chess pieces with long, lanky sticks, or else it's not a real fighting game.

Oh, and you know why I said the part you quoted? Because that's exactly the way people have reacted every single time I've brought this up in the past. Instead of replying to the arguments or even considering them, I'm stupid. I'm a troll. I'm a casual (the horror!) Much like you refuse to provide an actual argument. By which I mean you realize that, yes, my argument is perfectly true, so you can't shoot it down. So you'll resort to insinuating that I'm a troll or full of myself, so somehow you're so far above me that you don't even have to supply a damn argument to win the debate. You have just proved my damn point.

@HeroicPrinny / General

There are many aspects to 2d fighters, and for the specific genre it has become, it doesn't make sense to say that they are meant to be played in one way or another. There are players that are terrible at inputs but incredible at strategy, as well as players that are terrible at strategy and reading opponents and instead rely on getting their one hit in to get their chance at doing a ridiculously difficult combo.
The various inputs to use a character's full set of attacks is certainly a barrier of entry to beginners, but to an intermediate player there is little concern over the basic inputs ( it just isn't that hard at all once you get used to it ). Even a player that can't handle complex inputs can still win through skilled play in strategy / reading / zoning / spacing, there is a lot to fighters than just input combos. Typically new players who get annihilated are actually getting creamed due to their lack of skill in these other areas, making it ridiculously easy to get clean hits in, and thus damaging combos.
I personally am pretty terrible at inputs compared to my peers, and yet i tend to win against most people i know. This is all through good movements/blocking/strategy/reading/spacing/zoning, along with some short and easy combos. If your opponent can defeat you in 4 clean hits, and you require 8 clean hits, you're still fine if you're going to be hitting him 3x as much as he hits you.
And in the long run, input difficulty is nearly irrelevant. Tournament level players are all going to be inputting the most difficult stuff constantly and consistently, and at that point the only thing that matters is your strategy / etc.

@Prestizi
As for the argument for the inputs, the players who stick to the game tend to get good enough at the inputs that at least inputting the simpler stuff becomes trivial ( me ). Like i said before, there are players who are terrible at the strategic portion, but have magic hands that can input the most complex inputs. You can liken them to playing a rhythm game with a preset list of buttons, once they get their hit in, they can string together painfully difficult combinations for massive damage, ones i could never do. But thats why you don't give them that opportunity. And then you ask, what about the people who have strategy and dexterity. Well there you go, obviously some people are overall just better or more talented or have put in more practice. This extra layer of difficulty adds more depth and widens the gap between a skilled player and a less skilled player. Again, at the top levels of tournament gameplay inputs are a trivial aspect and it all comes down to strategy and reading.

@Prestizi

Example of a higher level game, in which there really isn't much combo stringing ( at least the Tager ). Its all in careful movements, good blocking, timing, and reading ( you still need the basic level of ability to input the special attacks ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQD27iYVGm0&feature=PlayList&p=7E198E90A885B400&playnext_from=PL

@Mehbah

Just as an example, BlazBlue doesn't have enough buttons to not use complex inputs
typical character:
A,B,C,D four buttons ( D is a very special button for most characters )
6a,6b,6c 3 forward attacks
2a,2b,2c 3 down attacks
possible 1 or 2 back attacks ( back is also block so can't overload it too much )
jumping a,b,c 3 typical jumping attacks
jumping 2a,2b,2c, 1 to 3 downwards jumping attacks ( typically only 1 or 2 )
quarterforward A,B,C,D 4 special attacks that vary slightly in a subtle but meaningful way
quarterback A,B,C,D 4 special attacks that vary slightly in a subtle but meaningful way
22a,22b,22c,22d down down attacks, usually only 1 to 2 of these
DP input ( 623, aka forward,down,diagonallydownforward) A,B,C,D
4 special attacks that vary slightly in a subtle but meaningful way
halfcircleforward A,B,C,D some have it some dont, 1 to 4 moves
halfcirclebackward A,B,C,D some have it, some don't, 1 to 4 moves
super inputs, most characters typically have 1-4 supers
astral finish input, usually pointless but its still a move that has to be fit
barrier / throw / burst / taunt
Good luck fitting those into only single direction inputs without sacrificing gameplay ability. Some characters have more than what i listed. And the attacks are different enough to justify different inputs ( different distances or angles on a projectile, claiming you can change input length or input force as an input overloading method is really dumb since it sacrifices either speed or flexibility [ or in the case of input force is in some ways much harder to deal with than a simple input combination ] )

@Lerkero

or people can demand that MS release a controller with a better d-pad. I swear I don't see how that thing got past user testing. Pretty much insures all my fighting games are for the PS3.

@doctorrobert
Play someone who is any good at fighters, and chances are they can beat you using only a single crummy attack + strategy. Give them a zoning projectile on top of that and you're toast. The inputs are a very small barrier of entry in the long run. You get used to them in one game, and it never bothers you in any other game ever again ( except in some particularly strict games ). And its not as hard as people make it out to be ( i have terribly clumsy hands and im doing fine enough ). For most people, there isn't a need to learn the strongest, longest, most ridiculous combos. A few simple and short ones combined with effective strategy will be enough to defeat most beginner-intermediate players. And complaining that its too hard to beat advanced players without putting in any effort or practice is just laughable.

@doctorrobert

Fighters aren't any different than FPS games - you have to get used to it, have quick reflexes and occasionally be really cheap.

It's not until after you have those things does the real fighting begin. The strategy involved in a well made fighter is a beautiful thing.

As a side note, most fighters have damage scaling - meaning the longer the combo, the less damage is going to do. Thus, they actually encourage less complicated and strung out combos - making the universal combo (jump-in fierce/roundhouse, crouching roundhouse) still very, very useful.

@Prestizi

Indeed, indeed.