R4 and other Nintendo DS flashcarts outlawed in UK

@Hoo Why, cause you're a pirater?

@PWRWarTG
I'm not usually a grammar or spelling nazi but I'm sorry, pirater? are you serious?

@Hoo
Dont say that out side Those camera will see/hear you and the gestapo will arrest you. The movie V for Vendetta is a reality

@PWRWarTG

No, its because they've banned a product with a totally legitimate use. How are we supposed to get home brew onto our DS's now

@Hoo

This has always been the way of homebrew. Homebrew requires unsecured systems in order to work. Piracy also uses unsecured systems. Since piracy is against the best interests of hardware mfgs like Nintendo, Sony, etc., they will always resist hacks and such like the R4, and the homebrew community will always be forced "underground."

Its really a shame no console company has come up with a way to accommodate homebrewers without leaving their systems open to piracy. The closest to this was linux on the ps3, but even this was a poor solution, since they blocked gpu access and eventually retracted the functionality.

If you still want a flash cart for the DS (the R4 is dead, btw, Joystiq, get with the times--the acekard is by and far the #1 flash cart nowadays), I'm sure you can still order one from china or something and sneak it through. If you order 100 of the things, though, expect the cops to notice it :)

@Hoo
Think about it this way:

Flash carts are made up of parts: the MicroSD port, the header ROM, the RAM, etc. etc.
While almost all of the parts can be used either legally or illegally, some of the parts are used to mimic a genuine DS cartridge, and are used solely for the running of "backup" ROMs.

This hardware can easily be not included and homebrew will run fine, but commercial ROMs will not.
The iPlayer and Datel Games 'n' Music are show this.

The fact of the matter is that the R4 has this hardware. It contains parts solely for the purpose of running pirated code.
Saying that this is OK sends the wrong message, and I for one think the ban is a good thing.

There is nothing stopping a company making a homebrew-only DS Flashcart.

@xTetheredWingsX
Well... Yes, you can do whatever you want with the hardware. But no, you can't do whatever you want with the software as you only buy a licence to use it, not the actual software code itself. By cracking the security on it, you are still breaking the law. But you can physically break and crack the DS that you have purchased, because that's what you physically bought and own. I recommend using a hammer.

@xTetheredWingsX Are you talking about the recent Jailbeaking and unlocking on phones that is now deemed legal? I guess you could say they are pretty similar, but you don't need to unlock a DS to use it after the warranty is up like if it were a contract. R4 seems to be used mostly for piracy so I'm not surprised its getting the banhammer.

@Dark Archon PSN Archonik XBL Dar

Actually, the recent fair use rulings that allow for jailbreaking iPhones and ripping movies for non-commercial use (among many other things) could mean that flashcarts like the R4 definitely aren't considered illegal in the U.S. Downloading commercial DS games and running them on a R4 is still illegal, though, so stick to homebrew, R4 owners.

@xTetheredWingsX
The rule said you're allowed to crack your devices, but it made it illegal for people to provide public methods to do so. So creators of devices like this will probably go out of business. If you can crack it by yourself then you can, but distributing techniques, technologies, devices, etc. is prohibited.

@Zertoss

You guys are a bit off. Jailbreaking was deemed legal because Apple was purposefully blocking features (for example, using the phone on different networks, customizable backgrounds, customizable icons, etc)

R4's on the other hand, are a bit different. Nintendo does not purposefully block any features on the DS that the R4 unlocks.

@xTetheredWingsX

Dunno how others see it but I See little difference between and R4 and a DVD R/W. It all boils down to how one uses a perfectly legit piece of technology.

Neither the R4 or the DVD itself pirates anything, in much the same way as I can say that a Gun does not kill a person. I do not doubt in any way that Piracy is an real Issue for Videogames but you can hardly blame the actions of an inanimate object for those of ignorant people.

@Themoreyouknow

You have some link talking about that? Because nothing I've read about the ruling indicates you have to create the crack yourself.

@xTetheredWingsX

The devices themselves are not the ones doing the infringement and they have other, non-violating uses, so they will not be outlawed in the US anytime soon.

It's like outlawing crowbars because I could use one to break into a house or car.

@tmujir955
YEs nintendo does you can not rum apps that nintendo does not approve which is the same basis of the recent ruling

@tmujir955

I'm not sure that's entirely correct either. Here's an excerpt from the official explanation of the decisions:

"On balance, the Register concludes that when one jailbreaks a smartphone in order to make the operating system on that phone interoperable with an independently created application that has not been approved by the maker of the smartphone or the maker of its operating system, the modifications that are made purely for the purpose of such interoperability are fair uses."

That just says "interoperable with an independently created application", which could easily be taken to include homebrew. There's nothing unlocking specific blocked features other than general third party software. The main "issue" with this ruling as it relates to devices like the R4 is that it's very specific to smartphones.

However, there was a second separate ruling this week where a federal court ruled that the act of bypassing security was itself not a violation of DMCA... whether you are in the wrong depends on what you do after bypassing the security:

http://arstechnica.com/software/news/2010/07/court-breaking-drm-for-a-fair-use-is-legal.ars

*There's nothing specific to blocked features

@Vidikron

The ruling (AFAIK it anyway) said it was ok to jailbreak your iphone, YOU personally can break the security on the hardware if you want to.

It DOES NOT say, its ok to sell a piece of hardware which specifically breaks the iphone's security.

that is the difference here (and the difference between a R4 and a DVD-RW , that was meantioned above)

The R4 is designed to break the DS's security systems , that is why its banned. If it was just a cart, and the software that peopel choose to put on it broke the security system it would be a different matter. This is how it differs from DVDS as the DVDS themselves are not designed to break security systems.

"It DOES NOT say, its ok to sell a piece of hardware which specifically breaks the iphone's security."

But it doesn't really address hardware at all from what I've read, it only addresses bypassing security in general. The method doesn't seem to be addressed. Also, I'm not sure where this talk about DVD-RWs is coming from as that doesn't seem to be related.

The Library of Congress decision simply states that "jailbreaking" is legal. And apps like Spirit are most definitely designed to do nothing but bypass the security on the iPhone. So while not specifically hardware, they server the same purpose as a device like the R4. Of course, as I noted above, this ruling was very specific to iPhones.

However, as I noted in my later post, the ruling by the Federal Court seems to be more broad. They basically ruled that bypassing DRM wasn't a violation in of itself, it's only what you did after bypassing security that determines your guilt.

@Vidikron

From a quick google apps like spirit are given away, they are not sold in any way shape or form, there is a donate option there but its not specifically sold. Also by installing the app YOU are doing thejailbreaking/bypassing of the security. Its not installing hardware that does it for you.

The r4 is sold for a profit by the manufactures, it has stuff built in to circumvent the secuirty of the hardware it connects to. There is a big difference in the laws eyes on these two things due mainly to one doing it itself, and one is the user doing it (yes you could say that the user is putting the cart in the console, but i think theres still a difference in the laws eyes on this)

The DVD talk was mentioned further up in the thread by Scuffles.

There is also a diffence in the reason behind doing the breaking, and i think that plays a part in the decisions. In the iphone sense it is enabling stuff that apple have specifically disabled (only now has the iphone just got round to having multitasking (on certain phones), somethign the jailbroken ones have been doing for a while(on nearly all of them), using the phone on other networks that kinda thing) . Nintendo havn't limited stuff like this, the only limits they have are i guess that the carts that you use must be licenced (i don't think its like the old days when ninty did all the manufacturing but it might be).

@Milky1985

I supose really we are talking about 2 different things, one is a bit of software that you can install onto your hardware, and is given away for free (afaik, there probably are a few paid for tools out there for people silly enough to use them) designed to remove articfical locks on functionality, so you can make all phones behave the same.

One is a bit of hardware designed to run anything on a specifc console, reguardless of if it is signed or not.

Its probably all down to faciliting the breaking of the law (or cival law), harder to prove with software (especally software thats not sold)

"From a quick google apps like spirit are given away, they are not sold in any way shape or form, there is a donate option there but its not specifically sold."

There's actually an app called Cydia that most people install after jailbreaking. It's basically a storefront for third party apps that being sold.

"Also by installing the app YOU are doing thejailbreaking/bypassing of the security. Its not installing hardware that does it for you.'"

This is a razor thin difference. I'm not specifically bypassing anything... it's the software. Int he case of Spirit it's software running on a computer that then alters the code on the iPhone. In the case of the R4 it's software running on the cartridge. There's very little practical difference here other than, yes, the R4 is a commercial product. And, again, in either case neither ruling addresses the method of bypassing the security.

@xTetheredWingsX The LoC ruling states that any hardware or software modification that exists to provide software interoperability is legal so long as it does not use copyrighted code without permission.

@Dark Archon PSN Archonik XBL Dar Did you read the LoC ruling? Breaking security to get software to work on your system that's otherwise legal is also legal under the DMCA, so long as you aren't distributing copyrighted code. And the "licensed not sold" bull is falling out of favor of sane US courts (I.e. everything save the 9th circuit) because it doesn't make sense. A sale is a sale is a sale.

They probably got grandfathered in.

@Dark Archon PSN Archonik XBL Dar

Owning one is not against the law, its illegal to sell them or advertise them etc.

Basically if you have one you can't sell it on without breaking the law.

@Dark Archon PSN Archonik XBL Dar
everyone is a fugitive in the UK
You are always on camera and are being watched even when you take a dump you jwalk and they can arrest you
UK = police state

@Uncontrol

That's exactly why I bought my EZ 3 in 1.

Well, that and GBAGI.

@Uncontrol

Not like you could without a GBA Flashcart, but that's beside the point.

@Fminus
obviously, making certain products illegal is anti-consumer, becuase consumers are those that purchase products or services. you may be thinking of consumers in the food web (those that consume plants and producers).

@Fminus Negativity To The Rescue

Piracy is only one of many possible uses for a flashcart - lots of people buy them to run homebrew, play backups, and use the DS as a media player. This is like banning knives because some people use them to kill. In my view, the onus should be on the industry to make their consoles secure, instead of getting the government to meddle with supply/demand by banning any products that may or may not be used for piracy.

Trying to chase down pirates is futile anyway. They'll always find a way. Why not address the issues that lead to piracy, like overpriced games, or poorly protected consoles?

@Misanthropic Gamer

You win, good sir.

Have a point.

@Freakservo

Most of piracy is because of region coding as well...

How much piracy goes on with the PS3? Its sure as sh!t not because that its 'uncrackable' that's for sure.

@thelolotov
elite beat agents might be in that window

My PSP is hacked but I honestly can't be bothered to pirate anything for it these days. Is there anything worth pirating on the PSP?

Meanwhile I'm enjoying Dragon Quest IX and a slew of other great RPGs since the DS is where they all seem to be headed.

@jynxycat

Nintendo will make R4 an example to other flash card makers. I doubt they'd care though!

@GumbyX

Scuffles is misreading the situation, any device can be used for piracy, but the R4 was specifically deisgned to circumvent the security on a specific product.

If you could by DVDS that automatically broke the security on a DVD player to play pirated stuff then it would be the same, but you don't its the software that people use to break encryption that does that.

Its 2 different siutations, one is designed to break security, one is designed to be a blank disc!

@Milky1985 But the new "law" pasted in the US says its ok to circumvent security to unlock a device (phones and devices like the iPad ion particular). Hence why it might be legal for these devices to exist.

Also, just because a device can be used to pirate goods/data doesn't mean its automatically illegal. Crowbars can be used to break into people's houses, but they are perfectly legal. Its all in how you use it. Sadly, because the devices in question are digital, people ignore this fact.