Warren Spector says game devs are 'still making cartoons'
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When Warren Spector told Gamescom attendees that the denizens of his chosen profession are "still making cartoons," he wasn't referring to his upcoming illustrated opus, Epic Mickey. Rather, he was voicing his opinion on what he sees to be one of the biggest challenges facing the industry today: game developers' proclivity for attempting (and ultimately failing) to mimic the storytelling techniques of movies, comics and other forms of popular media.
Of course, one of his main problems with games' stories is their tendency to be dude-centric -- he warned the Gamescom crowd "if we don't break out of big buff guys with swords and guys in tights and space marines in armor, we're going to get marginalized in the way comics have been in the United States." He also warned about attempting to ape blockbuster films by filling games with obscenely expensive visuals, as "we still fall far, far short of what people expect from a movie."
Ultimately, the only form of storytelling Spector thinks games should attempt to emulate is oral conversation, as the person interacting with the game is equally responsible for shaping its story. "Player experience comes first," Spector explained, "we have to allow them to show their creativity. No other medium has allowed them to do this. We are unique in the history of humankind. Every player becomes an author when they play a game."
Of course, one of his main problems with games' stories is their tendency to be dude-centric -- he warned the Gamescom crowd "if we don't break out of big buff guys with swords and guys in tights and space marines in armor, we're going to get marginalized in the way comics have been in the United States." He also warned about attempting to ape blockbuster films by filling games with obscenely expensive visuals, as "we still fall far, far short of what people expect from a movie."
Ultimately, the only form of storytelling Spector thinks games should attempt to emulate is oral conversation, as the person interacting with the game is equally responsible for shaping its story. "Player experience comes first," Spector explained, "we have to allow them to show their creativity. No other medium has allowed them to do this. We are unique in the history of humankind. Every player becomes an author when they play a game."
Reader Comments (48)
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:16PM Faceless Troll said
In other words developers might have to learn how to be original?
Reply
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 1:30PM ll features ll said
@likedamaster There is no such thing as originality, just a composite of other people's ideas, taken from other people's ideas, moulded into something masquerading as originality!
Reply
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 11:22PM lobotomies4free said
@Gco
They all have to answer to the suits, and unfortunately.... the masses
Reply
They all have to answer to the suits, and unfortunately.... the masses
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 1:42PM ll features ll said
@Gco Can't we all just have are big stupid, fun games, as well as the heavy rains and mass effects?
Mr Spector needs to set up a radio station, or hjack a few TV channels, so that he can subliminally preach to the public because your typical developer is always going to make the games that MOST people want to play.
Give the customer what they want, big guns, unicorns and chainsaws by the barrelful........... give or take a few unicorns.
Reply
Mr Spector needs to set up a radio station, or hjack a few TV channels, so that he can subliminally preach to the public because your typical developer is always going to make the games that MOST people want to play.
Give the customer what they want, big guns, unicorns and chainsaws by the barrelful........... give or take a few unicorns.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 11:11PM gatotsu911 said
@PS1
That would just be "Japanese cartoons", with all the good and bad that entails.
Reply
That would just be "Japanese cartoons", with all the good and bad that entails.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:22PM leobebes said
Sales talk. Alan Wake and Heavy Rain were great titles but they still don't sell like dude centric games like Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty.
Spector seems to be in that crowd like Will Wright where they want to develop for the Wii exclusively because they think the Wii is pushing video games forward and the 360 and PS3 are more of the same blah blah. In order to push the medium with your creative vision you do need some sort of horsepower in an industry that so heavily depends of visual stimulation for effect. Concentrating on the Wii only and bashing the other system while only developing on the former seems a bit hypocritical.
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Spector seems to be in that crowd like Will Wright where they want to develop for the Wii exclusively because they think the Wii is pushing video games forward and the 360 and PS3 are more of the same blah blah. In order to push the medium with your creative vision you do need some sort of horsepower in an industry that so heavily depends of visual stimulation for effect. Concentrating on the Wii only and bashing the other system while only developing on the former seems a bit hypocritical.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:48PM copa said
@leobebes
"They still don't sell like dude centric games like Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty."
You know, we keep telling ourselves that. That the reason game titles are disproportionately Testosterone-Person Shooters is because those are the games that bring in all the money.
But the facts don't really bear this out. NPD just released their top 10 sellers of 2010 so far, and there were only 3 "dude" games on the list: God of War 3, Modern Warfare 2, and Battlefield: BC2.
I think Heavy Rain may be a game that works against your point. This game got no marketing support in the US, because it was assumed that we only buy games with rocket-propelled penis launchers, and the game surpassed all of the sales projections here.
I will always want to play a gloriously conceived, well executed action shooter with huge set pieces. But I agree with Warren that there is a lot of untapped demand for games outside of that genre as well.
Reply
"They still don't sell like dude centric games like Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty."
You know, we keep telling ourselves that. That the reason game titles are disproportionately Testosterone-Person Shooters is because those are the games that bring in all the money.
But the facts don't really bear this out. NPD just released their top 10 sellers of 2010 so far, and there were only 3 "dude" games on the list: God of War 3, Modern Warfare 2, and Battlefield: BC2.
I think Heavy Rain may be a game that works against your point. This game got no marketing support in the US, because it was assumed that we only buy games with rocket-propelled penis launchers, and the game surpassed all of the sales projections here.
I will always want to play a gloriously conceived, well executed action shooter with huge set pieces. But I agree with Warren that there is a lot of untapped demand for games outside of that genre as well.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 8:23PM Chareth Cutestory said
@copa
The Sims is a better example. I believe its still the best selling PC game of all time, but who cares about that? It's all about space marines and super heroes, right?
Reply
The Sims is a better example. I believe its still the best selling PC game of all time, but who cares about that? It's all about space marines and super heroes, right?
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 4:13PM Neter said
@leobebes
Or maybe, that people who think the Wii is pushing video games forward and the 360 and PS3 are more of the same blah blah is the same people who think you don’t need such horsepower to bring good visual stimulation.
See how many visually unique games the Wii has comparing to the "photorealistic" conga on the HD consoles.
Also, see how many indy developers make completely new experiences without minimum hardware.
Reply
Or maybe, that people who think the Wii is pushing video games forward and the 360 and PS3 are more of the same blah blah is the same people who think you don’t need such horsepower to bring good visual stimulation.
See how many visually unique games the Wii has comparing to the "photorealistic" conga on the HD consoles.
Also, see how many indy developers make completely new experiences without minimum hardware.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:24PM PN04 said
Yadda yadda blah blah blah, Stop talking out of your ass and do something about it Spector.
I swear, every damn week we hear some "industry professional" talk about what they think it wrong with thing yet they dont even TRY to push the medium themselves! His argument here is that Users should be able to control the experience but he never posits a way for this too be done without it being a rip off of LPB or Spore. The only other option is creating a world that reacts realistically and letting the player do what ever he wants within it. But when you do that you're just creating a sandbox with no real goal, the second you add a storyline and people to give you missions it become GTA and clearly he's not a fan if that's still a cartoon to him.
You can make chat trees until the cows come home for a game like Mass effect or Heavy rain but in the end there's always going to be a finite number of outcomes which means either companies spend big bucks on expensive scenes that everyone will see or they spend millions of dollars on making sure a NPC feels a suitable amount of anger for calling them an idiot 4 times compared to 5 times!
Reply
I swear, every damn week we hear some "industry professional" talk about what they think it wrong with thing yet they dont even TRY to push the medium themselves! His argument here is that Users should be able to control the experience but he never posits a way for this too be done without it being a rip off of LPB or Spore. The only other option is creating a world that reacts realistically and letting the player do what ever he wants within it. But when you do that you're just creating a sandbox with no real goal, the second you add a storyline and people to give you missions it become GTA and clearly he's not a fan if that's still a cartoon to him.
You can make chat trees until the cows come home for a game like Mass effect or Heavy rain but in the end there's always going to be a finite number of outcomes which means either companies spend big bucks on expensive scenes that everyone will see or they spend millions of dollars on making sure a NPC feels a suitable amount of anger for calling them an idiot 4 times compared to 5 times!
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:54PM copa said
@PN04
"Stop talking out of your ass and do something about it Spector."
Warren Spector's credits include Ultima VI, System Shock, and the original Deus Ex. All three of these games were very important milestones in terms of storytelling and interactivity.
Warren Spector has been doing something about it for over 20 years.
Reply
"Stop talking out of your ass and do something about it Spector."
Warren Spector's credits include Ultima VI, System Shock, and the original Deus Ex. All three of these games were very important milestones in terms of storytelling and interactivity.
Warren Spector has been doing something about it for over 20 years.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 7:02PM PN04 said
@copa The important thing is what has he done LATELY. With the possible exception of System Shock there's very little relevant about any of the game you mention. Let him make something that doesnt involve a sword, gun or hoping on platforms that sells 2 million copies and THEN maybe he'll have some important perspective to impart here. Until then he's just part of the problem and doesnt have the right to pick on the rest of the industry.
Reply
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 8:46PM The Joy of Painting w Bob Ross said
@copa
Apparently he/she is a child or insane because you mentioned Deus Ex and his/her response still was:
"With the possible exception of System Shock there's very little relevant about any of the game you mention."
Reply
Apparently he/she is a child or insane because you mentioned Deus Ex and his/her response still was:
"With the possible exception of System Shock there's very little relevant about any of the game you mention."
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 7:01PM whymog said
@den69 Uncharted was fun, but I firmly believe that the highlight of that game was the characters' dialog and the beauty of the setpieces. The combat and platforming aspects were more than competent as far as games go, but they weren't nearly as enjoyable as just seeing the story play out. I think Spector is absolutely right that interactivity and the player's ability to shape the fiction being told are the keys to why games are an important and distinct medium, but the technology and ingenuity to really deliver those experiences is still a few years out.
Reply
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 7:05PM whymog said
@den69 So basically, I'm with leobebes on this one. It's a very loving homage to a fantastic genre of movies, and it translates into a pretty fun video game at the same time, but the intensely scripted narrative and the combat system are fundamentally incapable of meshing together in a way where the player's input is meaningful. Instead of the player's actions shaping the story, it ultimately boils down to the player participating in a somewhat arbitrary challenge in order to be rewarded with some additional narrative progression. It's my opinion Naughty Dog is peerless when it comes to delivering a cinematic experience in games, and what they made is a great experience, but I think even they'd admit that what they've done isn't maximizing the medium to its utmost potential.
Okay, I'm done, I promise.
Reply
Okay, I'm done, I promise.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 6:47PM ClarkyAC said
many of my favourite games have no obvious story line at all.. Except that of which you have an objective and that is it or At least the storyline wasn't obvious to me first hand.. Some of my favourite games I wouldn't be able to tell you the story line behind them, and some other favorites of mine I haven't cared one bit for the story line (Borderlands). It goes to show that game developers don't need to thin the line between film entertainment and game entertainment.
Having said that, there are many, many games that have been amazing because of their cinematic feel to them (enter set pieces ect). It is proof that what Spector is saying is not really problematic. Games are selling well in their current state, who knows whether changing storyline mechanics would be a good move?
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Having said that, there are many, many games that have been amazing because of their cinematic feel to them (enter set pieces ect). It is proof that what Spector is saying is not really problematic. Games are selling well in their current state, who knows whether changing storyline mechanics would be a good move?
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 7:13PM The Albatross said
Good thoughts by Spector.
Games exist midway between books and movies, in terms of how they can articulate a story. The best example of this might be a game like Fallout 3, that, despite cheesy writing, despite bad voice acting, and less than convincing visual interaction with characters, has a more _in depth_ story than most other videogames. The main narrative is mostly dull, pretty standard fair for any game: Main character seeks out exestential truth about something, inadvertantly needs to save the world. That is functionally the story of nearly every game.
But where Fallout 3 shines is in its back-story and side-story. Fallout 3, and other games like it (Oblivion, even Bioshock -- but done far more obviously in Bioshock), allow the person experiencing the story to get as indepth into the story as they want, and Fallout was done in such a way to really make that interesting, and for the most part, coherent. I wont forget somewhere around hour 80 in Fallout 3, wandering around the Wastelands... well north and west of DC, I stumbled upon this sewer hole in the middle of nowhere, which struck me as something unique. It allowed me to open it and after hacking a hidden terminal protecting a secret entrance, I was in an underground hideout with two skeletons wearing Chinese armor and surrounded by books about faking American slang, or different acclimation topics. In front of them was a radio and two chinese pistols were scattered on the ground.
That event in Fallout 3 has no narrative. There is no character telling me anything super obvious, no caption that pops up on the screen, but if you had been vaguely paying attention to the story you quickly pieced together that these were Chinese spies in the capital of the United States, living in a bunker deep beneath the DC wilderness who were involved in the giant nuclear war that caused the earth to take the shape that the game is set in. There is no _narrative_ in this part of the game, but the area is packed with _story_.
This is something that games can do that movies can also do but to a far lesser extend. Games can tell a story using an environment better than movies can; they can do it better than a book can (because, in a book, everything is intentional for the reader). The subtlety of a _story_ without a _narrative_ is something that is almost nearly unique to videogames, and it's an area that I'm hoping more games capitalize on in the future.
And that's that.
Reply
Games exist midway between books and movies, in terms of how they can articulate a story. The best example of this might be a game like Fallout 3, that, despite cheesy writing, despite bad voice acting, and less than convincing visual interaction with characters, has a more _in depth_ story than most other videogames. The main narrative is mostly dull, pretty standard fair for any game: Main character seeks out exestential truth about something, inadvertantly needs to save the world. That is functionally the story of nearly every game.
But where Fallout 3 shines is in its back-story and side-story. Fallout 3, and other games like it (Oblivion, even Bioshock -- but done far more obviously in Bioshock), allow the person experiencing the story to get as indepth into the story as they want, and Fallout was done in such a way to really make that interesting, and for the most part, coherent. I wont forget somewhere around hour 80 in Fallout 3, wandering around the Wastelands... well north and west of DC, I stumbled upon this sewer hole in the middle of nowhere, which struck me as something unique. It allowed me to open it and after hacking a hidden terminal protecting a secret entrance, I was in an underground hideout with two skeletons wearing Chinese armor and surrounded by books about faking American slang, or different acclimation topics. In front of them was a radio and two chinese pistols were scattered on the ground.
That event in Fallout 3 has no narrative. There is no character telling me anything super obvious, no caption that pops up on the screen, but if you had been vaguely paying attention to the story you quickly pieced together that these were Chinese spies in the capital of the United States, living in a bunker deep beneath the DC wilderness who were involved in the giant nuclear war that caused the earth to take the shape that the game is set in. There is no _narrative_ in this part of the game, but the area is packed with _story_.
This is something that games can do that movies can also do but to a far lesser extend. Games can tell a story using an environment better than movies can; they can do it better than a book can (because, in a book, everything is intentional for the reader). The subtlety of a _story_ without a _narrative_ is something that is almost nearly unique to videogames, and it's an area that I'm hoping more games capitalize on in the future.
And that's that.
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 12:58PM gatotsu911 said
@The Albatross
How come whenever I attempt to submit a comment this long, it always gets eaten by the Joystiq Comments Monster??
Reply
How come whenever I attempt to submit a comment this long, it always gets eaten by the Joystiq Comments Monster??
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 7:30PM Rocket Raccoon said
" we're going to get marginalized in the way comics have been in the United States."
Are comics still marginalized? I just consider video games to be a couple steps behind comics in that they will eventually be treated with the respect they deserve. I think comics are fairly well respected, at this point in their history.
Reply
Are comics still marginalized? I just consider video games to be a couple steps behind comics in that they will eventually be treated with the respect they deserve. I think comics are fairly well respected, at this point in their history.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 11:03PM Rocket Raccoon said
@Rocket Raccoon
I don't really agree with the delusional part, but that's okay.
Reply
I don't really agree with the delusional part, but that's okay.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 8:24PM Liquidfingers said
@copa
No shit. Did this guy even play Deus Ex, Thief, or System Shock? Has he experienced the brilliance of each? All of those games are some of my favorites. System Shock (and System Shock 2) scared the bejebus out of me. Deus Ex blew my mind with its cyberpunk awesomeness, and Thief made me want to become a thief and break into rich folks manors, blackjack the guards' skulls, and steal me some golden goblets worth 25 gold each.
Reply
No shit. Did this guy even play Deus Ex, Thief, or System Shock? Has he experienced the brilliance of each? All of those games are some of my favorites. System Shock (and System Shock 2) scared the bejebus out of me. Deus Ex blew my mind with its cyberpunk awesomeness, and Thief made me want to become a thief and break into rich folks manors, blackjack the guards' skulls, and steal me some golden goblets worth 25 gold each.
Posted: Aug 18th 2010 9:16PM SnorlaxTheSerialKiller said
I still can't unsee Eric Clapton when I look at Warren Spector.
Reply
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 10:20AM Digiboi said
I call BS on this. If you correlate movies to video games, then - yes - there are going to be the Block-buster titles that are devoid of a good plot, acting or directing (yes Michael Bay, I'm talking about you). I don't play FPS games any longer - bored with them a long time ago. Uncharted, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Final Fantasy, Heavy Rain, Little Big Planet, Bayonetta, Mirror's Edge, Tomb Raider...need I go on? Plenty of big-title games without the space marine on steroids as the main character.
Reply
Posted: Aug 19th 2010 6:11PM Calculon64 said
Yes, and please no more cartoon looking games like Torchlight and World of War Craft. Although they both great games I wouldn't spend a dime or a second of my life playing cartoon looking games. Leave that stuff for Nickelodeon or Disney game. We the grow ups who pay tons of money for subscriptions and PC hardware deserve stuff that looks like Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2.
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