As part of a series of interviews with PC Gamer, the folks at Valve recently gave out a laundry list of failures on the company's part. Many readers will be familiar with many on the list, including early versions of Team Fortress 2, the flying fairy game and, more recently, mistakenly banning over 12,000 Modern Warfare 2 players. Of particular note on the list were Valve's failures regarding the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.
Valve's Erik Johnson lamented the way the company has dealt with the PS3, and also referred to the lack of Team Fortress 2 updates on the Xbox 360 as "a total failure." Johnson noted that these failures are worse than internal failures, saying, "If you fix a bug before it ever ships, it's pretty cheap. If you ship it and then fix it, it's really expensive." Gabe Newell added that the company is "really happy with the current situation with the PS3."
Concerning the lack of TF2 updates on Xbox, Newell admits that Valve built the game assuming that Microsoft would eventually change some of its Xbox Live rules (thought he didn't elaborate on the nature of said rules). "We thought that there would be something that would emerge," said Newell, "because we figured it was a sort of untenable." He added that Valve understood Microsoft's rules when it made TF2, but they were "such a train wreck" that the company assumed they would "have to change" eventually.
Reader Comments (100)
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 6:52PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said
Wow, one of the few websites that didn't go with the...
"Valve: Xbox Live is a train wreck." line.
Bravo!
Reply
"Valve: Xbox Live is a train wreck." line.
Bravo!
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 6:53PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said
@Ezio Auditore da Firenze
Sigh, I meant "as a headline".
Apologies.
Reply
Sigh, I meant "as a headline".
Apologies.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:03PM Whoppinberg said
@Ezio Auditore da Firenze
No no, you're right the first time.
Reply
No no, you're right the first time.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 9:57PM GamesandGadgetz said
@Prboi lol don't you think that's a bit too harsh although with how they did things that becomes a harsh fact.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2010 7:52AM wcarnation said
@Ezio Auditore da Firenze If theres two things Joystiq loves, its the 360 and Mac.
Reply
Posted: Sep 10th 2010 1:19PM McDude said
@Ezio Auditore da Firenze
I think "Episodic Content and the lack of even a single screenshot of EP3 after over 3 years" should be at the top of that list, in the headline, and probably tattooed on the forehead of several Valve employees....
....but that's just me.
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I think "Episodic Content and the lack of even a single screenshot of EP3 after over 3 years" should be at the top of that list, in the headline, and probably tattooed on the forehead of several Valve employees....
....but that's just me.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:06PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said
@Solace Oh man, the thought of L4D with a PS3 controller kind of makes me hot.
I try not to think about it too often.
Reply
I try not to think about it too often.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:09PM Shadowbender said
@Solace The possibilities are superbly endless. Valve seems really confident, and so do I.
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Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:39PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said
@Magetto It can, but only on the lowest settings, and I just can't play games like that.
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Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:40PM Steve R said
@Sally
I'm not sure where you are getting your info on Steamworks. Also, I don't why would steam friends support be needed on a system with a friend list in place.
One part that has been talked about was updates. that is one part that Steamworks will help with. By letting Valve update games without having to go thru Sony Certifications. Gabe Newell more or less expressed that at E3 during the Sony Press event. When speaking of Sony being a more open platform system for developers. Heck I wouldn't mind seeing it on both systems just to keep the flame wars in check. other than that who knows what Steamworks will be.
Reply
I'm not sure where you are getting your info on Steamworks. Also, I don't why would steam friends support be needed on a system with a friend list in place.
One part that has been talked about was updates. that is one part that Steamworks will help with. By letting Valve update games without having to go thru Sony Certifications. Gabe Newell more or less expressed that at E3 during the Sony Press event. When speaking of Sony being a more open platform system for developers. Heck I wouldn't mind seeing it on both systems just to keep the flame wars in check. other than that who knows what Steamworks will be.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:59PM The angry pro consumer gaming ga said
@Solace I'm definitely buying Portal 2 on the PS3 since it will be integrated with steamworks. I have L4D1 on my 360, but I'll be getting it on my Mac as well as part 2, now if they release it on the PS3 I might have to go to 3.
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Posted: Sep 9th 2010 8:30PM DangerMouse001 said
@Solace
From various interviews, it sounds like Valve is attempting to get cross-platform running between PS3 & PC through Steamworks. That's pretty big if they can pull it off, and something L4D & Portal 2 would benefit from. It would also be nice if they could open up more about the details, I'm interested to see how far Sony will let them take it.
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From various interviews, it sounds like Valve is attempting to get cross-platform running between PS3 & PC through Steamworks. That's pretty big if they can pull it off, and something L4D & Portal 2 would benefit from. It would also be nice if they could open up more about the details, I'm interested to see how far Sony will let them take it.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 6:56PM Wazzup4567 said
I gotta love Valve. Every failure gets even better from Valve somehow.
Banned MW2 players get free Left 4 Dead 2.
♥
Reply
Banned MW2 players get free Left 4 Dead 2.
♥
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 8:34PM philmcfail said
@Brodo
Didn't you steal that pic from the Chris D (Aggie CEO or w/e) though? The real dude that posted his pic on this site?
Reply
Didn't you steal that pic from the Chris D (Aggie CEO or w/e) though? The real dude that posted his pic on this site?
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:01PM BlackedOut said
Knowing Microsoft, I'm sure they're going to be willing to bend the rules this time around.
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Posted: Sep 9th 2010 8:34PM SuperWoody64 said
@BlackedOut
Let your wallets do the talking when portal2 comes out. When it outsells on the PS3 then MS will bend their rules.
They've broken every original achievement rule including 50 max per game for OrangeBox. Not letting us have free updates is inexcusable. How does it hurt them to allow us to download stuff? Don't we pay 50 bucks a year for this stuff?
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Let your wallets do the talking when portal2 comes out. When it outsells on the PS3 then MS will bend their rules.
They've broken every original achievement rule including 50 max per game for OrangeBox. Not letting us have free updates is inexcusable. How does it hurt them to allow us to download stuff? Don't we pay 50 bucks a year for this stuff?
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:06PM Pawsed said
To clarify what they refer to with "Microsoft's rules ... were 'such a train wreck' that the company assumed they would 'have to change' eventually."
Microsoft still won't allow them to put out free DLC and large updates of that manner. They new at the time that MS didn't allow it, but figured (rightly so) that it was a ridiculous way to do business. As it stands, they now are moving forward by delaying any DLC and updates for TF2 into larger bundles they can sell together cheap, so as to not have to force players to pay for every minor update.
So while PS3 lags a bit behind PC in it's reception of updates, 360 has to wait for a whole slew of updates to come out so they can be bundled together.
Seriously Microsoft, get with the picture. Let developers update their games freely if they choose to do so.
Reply
Microsoft still won't allow them to put out free DLC and large updates of that manner. They new at the time that MS didn't allow it, but figured (rightly so) that it was a ridiculous way to do business. As it stands, they now are moving forward by delaying any DLC and updates for TF2 into larger bundles they can sell together cheap, so as to not have to force players to pay for every minor update.
So while PS3 lags a bit behind PC in it's reception of updates, 360 has to wait for a whole slew of updates to come out so they can be bundled together.
Seriously Microsoft, get with the picture. Let developers update their games freely if they choose to do so.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:49PM WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco said
@Pawsed I don't completely buy it, mainly because all class updates are done now. They could have easily done 3 class updates for $5, or all of them for $5 or $10.
The reality is that the Xbox doesn't have the RAM to handle the changes in the game. Even decent gaming computers these days have a harder time running TF2 compared to when it launched, due to the increased number of models, textures, maps, sounds, etc.
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The reality is that the Xbox doesn't have the RAM to handle the changes in the game. Even decent gaming computers these days have a harder time running TF2 compared to when it launched, due to the increased number of models, textures, maps, sounds, etc.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:55PM The Aquacharger said
@WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco
And the fact the new models use WAY too many polygons and don't change from afar to close up. They need to learn how to work with models.
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And the fact the new models use WAY too many polygons and don't change from afar to close up. They need to learn how to work with models.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 8:14PM Mouthsmasher said
@Pawsed; So does this mean that companies have to pay Microsoft when they release an update or patch for a game? Because if that's correct, Microsoft seriously needs to get their crap together. As much as it would suck for me, the gamer, I would support developers if they refused to release updates on the Xbox until Microsoft let them do it free.
Reply
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 9:24PM The Aquacharger said
@Mouthsmasher
Microsoft has it so unless something is being released free on the Wii or PS3 through download it has to cost money. You're allowed small patches, then past that they need to be DLC. Also, they do charge the company for patches and DLC. Sony charges for bandwith useage for Games/DLC aswell. So does Steam aswell.
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Microsoft has it so unless something is being released free on the Wii or PS3 through download it has to cost money. You're allowed small patches, then past that they need to be DLC. Also, they do charge the company for patches and DLC. Sony charges for bandwith useage for Games/DLC aswell. So does Steam aswell.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 10:00PM Prboi said
@Pawsed
They can update their games anytime they want. But what Valve wants to do is add content (such as content that would usually be considered DLC) instead of fixing glitches or bugs in a game as a usual update would do. That's the problem Valve is having. They consider it a title update while MS considers it as DLC.
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They can update their games anytime they want. But what Valve wants to do is add content (such as content that would usually be considered DLC) instead of fixing glitches or bugs in a game as a usual update would do. That's the problem Valve is having. They consider it a title update while MS considers it as DLC.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 11:24PM Pawsed said
@Prboi The problem is that on other platforms (PC mainly but PS3 as well), they can add whatever they want for free. And do. All the time. In fact, it isn't just a pain for the consumer to do it MS's way. Valve is constantly doing minor updates; fixing balance issues, bugs, etc. But it also rolls out very minor updates like new hats, or a new map, or a class update which brings new weapons, maps, etc in one. As a programmer, this becomes an issue if you have to change your distribution schedule and plans to fit MS for no real reason.
Considering that all the many Class updates they've released contained new content, but were free to all, how would you do that on the 360? Every Class Update has rebalanced the class in question around new weapons and abilities, so you'd have to force every player to buy the update if you're calling it DLC. You can't just let some have it, besides the fact that one person's sniper would be statistically different from an updated one...
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Considering that all the many Class updates they've released contained new content, but were free to all, how would you do that on the 360? Every Class Update has rebalanced the class in question around new weapons and abilities, so you'd have to force every player to buy the update if you're calling it DLC. You can't just let some have it, besides the fact that one person's sniper would be statistically different from an updated one...
Posted: Sep 10th 2010 1:56PM Prboi said
@Pawsed
I think it's because MS doesn't like giving away free content as much as Valve puts out because in the past, they have given out free DLC for games like Halo 3, Gears of War & Mass Effect. I think it's the combo of bug fixes & content addition that it seems a little too much to be given away free all the time. I admit it's not the best way to handle it but I think if Valve would have negotiated with MS they could have worked something out. Like have the update be released maybe a month after the the PC & PS3 versions came out.
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I think it's because MS doesn't like giving away free content as much as Valve puts out because in the past, they have given out free DLC for games like Halo 3, Gears of War & Mass Effect. I think it's the combo of bug fixes & content addition that it seems a little too much to be given away free all the time. I admit it's not the best way to handle it but I think if Valve would have negotiated with MS they could have worked something out. Like have the update be released maybe a month after the the PC & PS3 versions came out.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:07PM Kid Icarus said
Gabe: "really happy with the current situation with the PS3"
Seems a bit ambiguous...is he talking about the current situation as in the Orange Box or the internal current situation that no one outside of Valve or Playstation would know anything about. I'm guessing the latter but it just seemed like an odd statement.
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Seems a bit ambiguous...is he talking about the current situation as in the Orange Box or the internal current situation that no one outside of Valve or Playstation would know anything about. I'm guessing the latter but it just seemed like an odd statement.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 7:10PM Pawsed said
@Kid Icarus He's happy that the PS3 allows them to update freely, whereas MS does not allow them to update with the new content for free to customers (they consider it DLC and they require a charge for it).
Gabe is happy that:
-Sony's got a deal with them for Portal 2 on PS3 next year and to bring Steam[works] to PS3
-Sony allows them to update TF2 with new content without charging the players (just like is constantly done for free on the PC
-He's saying he's happy with the PS3 as opposed to the 360 situation where MS has been unwilling to bend its marketplace rules in any way.
Reply
Gabe is happy that:
-Sony's got a deal with them for Portal 2 on PS3 next year and to bring Steam[works] to PS3
-Sony allows them to update TF2 with new content without charging the players (just like is constantly done for free on the PC
-He's saying he's happy with the PS3 as opposed to the 360 situation where MS has been unwilling to bend its marketplace rules in any way.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 10:30PM GuardianLegend said
@Pawsed
I don't geddit. There's various free DLC content packs on Xbox Live already, isn't there? I'm certain I got some Rock Band DLC for free.
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I don't geddit. There's various free DLC content packs on Xbox Live already, isn't there? I'm certain I got some Rock Band DLC for free.
Posted: Sep 9th 2010 10:46PM pandaSmore said
@lenandude EA would need to sell back the rights to publish TF2 on the PS3 back to Valve then.
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