Rein: 3DS likely below minimum specifications for Unreal Engine

@Invader2earth

Did Rein like apply at Nintendo years back and never get a call back or something??

Good lord this guy...

@Co

Not to be rude, but what does that have to do with Gears of War on the 3DS?

Also, I don't see why they won't just scale the engine back for the 3DS. I doubt we'd see GoW either way though since it's been Microsoft exclusive thus far.

@sonicspike41
Mech Assualt, an MS owned game series, is on the DS. MS has a DS development team.

@The Aquacharger

True. I know they've had Rare make Nintendo DS games with Nintendo characters (Diddy Kong Racing DS). However, between Epic apparently hating Nintendo and GoW being Microsoft exclusive thus far, I think we'd sooner see it on the Windows Phone 7.

@sonicspike41
There was more then just rare with the DS. MS had like 2-5 of their titles ported to the DS that weren't Rare titles.

@sonicspike41

For one the 3DS doesn't support programmable shaders and the unreal engine can't do much that looks half-decent without that. that is, as far as output, its strong point

@Ezio Auditore da Firenze the PSP2 can do Crysis!! (old 2007 meme fail)

@Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Well, all signs point to the PSP2 being a BEAST of a handheld. Let's hope.

@StrikeFear13 With a BEAST of a price, no doubt.

@flapjackal

The 3DS is supposed to be priced at what ... $299? or was it $249?

@Johnnynumber5 is powered by cell

There is no USD price yet. Only a Japanese one and that is at 25000 yen.

@Ezio Auditore da Firenze

My god. So much hate just because people are excited over the competition's product. I really hate Joystiq and the drooling idiots that vote for comments sometimes.

@Esposch

Try not to take it so seriously man. It is the internet, after all.

Don't forget that whenever one of your Joystiq comments is blue-ified, it's because a bunch of those "drooling idiots that vote for comments sometimes." share the same opinion as you.

@BrokenTriforce

That's not good either. Should people really be upvoted or downvoted for simply having an opinion? None of the guys were trolling there except the one who got upvoted, which I found especially ironic considering that the 3DS will also launch with a high price tag.

It's just fanboys being idiots, I know. But when you see the comments, it's obvious that they have the balance of power. It's just a pain in the arse, that's all.

@Teh Rei
Nintendo decides that. He's also probably right. Though I'm sure the results could be close the 3DS is bound to be the ugly duckling within a year or two.

Pretty sad that Nintendo didn't decide to up the specs just a smidge more. There's no guarantee that it will trump the PSP2 like the DS did the PSP. Sony is all but certain to have a touchscreen so all that's different is the second screen and lets be honest, that's not a game changer. Oh, and I guess the 3D bit may be in Nintendo's favor but that's uncharted territory.

@Mmmmz

Except like any system, what will really make it is the games. And seeing as how just about every japanese developer of note outside of sony is strongly on board with the 3DS, I don't think nintendo has to worry about much.

@Mmmmz
3DS with built in augmented reality is also a plus. 3DS has more then just glassess 3D.
Also system specs don't make a better system. Features and games to back up the console matter. Most devs didn't develop for PSP since PSP dev costs were more then the DS' cost. Plus some developers didn't want to make PSP games since the PSP was basically a mini home console (I don't understand this reason but a few devs have said this). Also 2 screens does have some nice uses, especially if you play bullet shooters, or games that use maps. As not having to scroll through pages to get to the map and just having it there is a wonderful feature.

"No," Rein said. "It's below our [minimum specifications], from what we can tell. We don't have a 3DS, so there's no way for us to verify that," he added, "but everything we've been led to believe is that it's below our min-spec. You couldn't do a game that looks like [Epic Citadel] on it, for example."

Real Time:

http://www.abload.de/img/rer2mbsl.gif

It looks as good as Epic Citadel... plus, in 3D. And you have to realize that the game is not even finished yet.

Here is a new one:

http://www.abload.de/img/rer1ex8c.gif

@FernandoRocker

That's a much lower resolution though... and a small environment.

@zerokku They're not on board for the PSP2?

It's how games sell on a system. Period. The DS sold software really well. The PSP, not so much. Of course, the devs didn't understand how to support it properly so they just through ports at it for the most part. They also blamed everything on the pirates and imagine that, nothing changed because they refused to address the real issues.

I'm basing this on history. Top dogs change all the time and people are expecting more from their handhelds nowadays thanks to the terrible tragedy that is Cellphone gaming (or at least some people thinking it can replace REAL gaming). Assuming Sony doesn't put out something terrible, there's a real chance for a market shift, again.

I want a 3DS as much as the next guy, but assuming that it will be as large of a success as the DS is sort of foolish at this point. I'm not even a graphics whore I just see a potential weakness down the line.

Anyway, this is pure conjecture. I don't think it would have hurt to upped the specs ever so much considering that Nintendo apparently has a good bit of play in pricing. People didn't care as much about hardware this gen, but they might the next. You have to be prepared for that kind of market shift and not just rest on your laurels assuming like Sony did that the consumers will follow you.

@Mmmmz : Just give me Pokemon and old school FF's and I'll buy the shit out of the 3DS.

@Mmmmz
I never considered this before. If Sony comes out with a system that has a better screen than the iPhone 4, it could be a deal breaker for everyone.


I certainly would pay for crystal clear powerful graphics, as opposed to gimmicky 3D graphics.

@Kirkpad I don't see how 3D is "gimmicky". Would you rather just get another DS with better graphics? Nintendo trying to take the time to actually make a new system rather than an upgraded old one it what makes them some much money. Sure Wii isn't as big with the "gamer" crowd, and nintendo should think a bit more about them, but Did you LOOK at the 3DS' lineup? Like 50% of them were hardcore gamer games. RE, DoA, SF, and they remade and upgraded classics like Star Fox (which hasn't been seen in a good light in years besides Brawl), and Zelda Ocarina of Time. What the eff is there to complain about?

@Kirkpad I don't see how 3D is "gimmicky". Would you rather just get another DS with better graphics? Nintendo trying to take the time to actually make a new system rather than an upgraded old one it what makes them so much money. Sure Wii isn't as big with the "gamer" crowd, and nintendo should think a bit more about them, but Did you LOOK at the 3DS' lineup? Like 50% of them were hardcore gamer games. RE, DoA, SF, and they remade and upgraded classics like Star Fox (which hasn't been seen in a good light in years besides Brawl), and Zelda Ocarina of Time. What the eff is there to complain about?

@Vidikron Exactly. It runs a lower resolution. Even more reason for it to be able to handle a version of the Unreal Engine.

But Rein will always just be a troll, so no reason to get all worked up over this anyway.

@Mmmmz
Actually...the second screen is a game-changer. After playing RPGs and turn-based strategies/RPGs on the dual-screened DS systems, I wouldn't ever play an RPG/strategy game on a PSP again. I like being able to see stats 'n all without thumbing constantly through menus on a single-screen device.

You understand the power behind the hardware is what determines the clarity of the graphics in the manner you are speaking, right? You run an original Game Boy game on an emulator on the iPhone, and you won't get screen ghosting like the original Game Boy, but the graphics aren't going to magically become better.

@Flapjackal well it IS black after all....

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi I see what you did there.

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

I see you there.

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

Outside of a GPU/CPU built around gaming, the 3DS doesn't stack up too well to current smartphone technology. It's got around 64MB of ram, while most smartphones are now shipping with 512MB I believe.

In the end the 3DS is still going to have better experiences than most iPhone games though thanks to companies developing full titles for it and not just bite-sized touch-based games.

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi
That's what im thinking, the 3DS can perform better ports of this generations consoles much better than the Ipods. But I think this is all really because they don't have any knowledge of what the 3DS can really do.

Even do ipod being more power than than the 3DS.....THAT'S BULL!

@Hayatoblaze91x
Even so, the ipod being more powerful than than the 3DS.....THAT'S BULL!

Correction for above statement!

@Hayatoblaze91x

Even so, the iPod being more powerful than the 3DS.....THAT'S BULL!

Correction for the correction above!

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

In terms of graphical output it is

the 3DS is more than capable of running the Unreal Engine, it can even run the MTFramework engine which IMO looking at Resident Evil produces better visuals than Epic Citadel.

Rein is automatically assuming that it wouldn't run on the 3DS because he has no interest in it.

Western Developers are only interested in developing for a platform that is already popular so they are guaranteed to make money.

@TheMichaelJackson

lol..thank you!

@TheMichaelJackson
Michael Jackson, king of grammar.

@sonicspike41: Did you just base the iphone being more powerful than the 3DS based on RAM? You do know what RAM does in a computer, right? It has nothing to do with graphics processing power. Plus the 3DS isn't pulling the heft of a whole OS like the iphone is, so more ram isn't necessary. Final word is, the 3DS is rendering 3 screens realtime(l&r 3d on the top screen, then the bottom screen), and the iPhone and PSP are rendering one.

@(Unverified)

Apparently you're less familiar with graphics technology than you think.

If a GPU doesn't have it's own ram it usually shares ram with the CPU. In the case of the iPhone the CPU also houses the GPU, and both must access the same RAM for anything they need to store.

Storing information in RAM is used for things like textures in video games. In your average PC video card the GPU has it's own RAM, these days getting as high as 2GB+ if I'm not mistaken. That's also one of the reasons so many Xbox 360 games have been criticized for not being true 720p, the limited EDRAM. It's also one reason people complain about PS3 games not appearing as sharp as Xbox 360 games, it shares RAM with the CPU.

On the 3DS having more RAM would probably allow them to load bigger/higher quality textures, or even get away with higher resolutions (if the screen supported them).

I know all of this for a fact based mostly on reading the comments of other intelligent posters and the articles on this site. I'm by no means an expert, but even a non-expert like me knows RAM plays a vital role in graphics.

@commenter7

"Rein is automatically assuming that it wouldn't run on the 3DS because he has no interest in it. "

Most of Epic's revenue stream is tied directly to selling middleware. It does not make sense, from a financial view point, to purposely withhold a widely used and industry accepted technology from a platform simply due to lack of personal interest. I feel so incredibly filthy for saying it, but if Mark Rein thought the current iteration of Unreal Engine 3 (or even a heavily modified version of it) could be ported successfully to the 3DS, I suspect we'd be reading a very different article (especially when one considers just how popular the DS has been through its lifetime).

We know the GPU found in the 3DS does not compare favorably to Tegra or the current iteration of the PowerVR architecture; the PICA 200 isn't as feature rich (it's a four, going on five year old, design) nor as fast as its competitors (in the 3DS's case, even less so because the GPU is downclocked a fair bit to extend battery life). The amount of memory is relatively small by current standards (even in the mobile phone market) and, at the very best, you'll be lucky to see original XBOX quality textures (this is, of course, a non-issue given how small the screen is).

The two major drawbacks in the 3DS design are the ARM11 processors and this is likely why Rein's made the comment he has. The ARM11 processor is terribly slow when standing next to its contemporaries all things being equal; having two of them does not help much. To put this is in perspective, an ARM Cortex 8 is two to three times faster than an ARM11 at the same clockspeed. Epic's Citadel demo won't run on anything slower than an iPhone 3GS, a device which uses an ARM Cortex 8 clocked at 600 MHz; the ARM11s found in the 3DS are clocked around 266 MHz each. The 3DS's CPUs could bottleneck the GPU and memory subsystems to the point of being unable to run UE3 even though they'd otherwise be up to the task. It's essentially the hand held equivalent of the following: an aging Geforce 8800 GTX, when paired with a Core i7 processor, delivers a satisfactory, if lackluster, experience in Crysis while the same videocard jammed into old dual Pentium 4 workstation will not (probably not the best analogy, but I'm bloody tired).

I do not like Mark Rein; I think he's a technically illiterate @ss hat who only should really speak in matters that fall within his areas of expertise (management and marketing). Having said that and using the relatively useless information I just spouted off, I doubt Epic's shareholders would let the man throw away an opportunity to get its middleware onto a platform that has the potential to outsell its 100 million+ unit strong predecessor due to personal disinterest IF the platform could support.

@commenter7 So... Just because he's not Frothing with excitement, means he Hates the 3DS? What an asinine assumption. But that's not the comment that got this over the top.. The Whole thing that Nintendo Fanboys have been doing for the last several years, Pretending to play the under dog.

-Western Developers are only interested in developing for a platform that is already popular so they are guaranteed to make money.

Now think about that. The 3DS is just a DS with better hardware and the Gimmicky 3D thing.... But it's still a DS.. and Last I checked, the DS is the most successful handheld platform of all time. From a company who has ruled the Handheld gaming space since they started it, nearly 25 years ago. To think that a Nintendo handheld would be anything but successful is stupid. And No western developer is that dumb, especially one who still supports the PC games market, despite it's lackluster sales and rampant piracy.

Now, had you read the article, you'd have seen why they aren't planning to develop any games on the 3DS.... Namely.... THEY DON'T HAVE ONE!

But let's take his comment at Face Value, shall we? 3DS vs iPhone 3GS/iPhone 4/iPad/iPod Touch 4th Gen. Having Seen Epic Citadel in motion, It's damn impressive. I've only seen the resident evil games in screen shots. Now.. I recall when many people argued that Red Steel looked as good if not better than Gears Of War. Screenshots vs. Reality... and we all know how that ended.

But say that, those Screens are 100% accurate. They are simply a cheat. First, it's dark, secondly, it's smaller enclosed spaces.In the Epic Citadel demo, you can walk out on a road and see over half the level in this huge Outdoor space. Heck, look at Snake Eater, It looks ALMOST as good as It's PS2 Original. Spec for Spec, the iPhone 4, has more RAM and a faster CPU than even the Wii.

The thing is, the 3DS will have other things to worry about than a Smartphone. A Smartphone at full bore, will last about 4 or so hours. The 3GS will need to last 10+ hours on battery, so Its more than likely going to be clocked lower and even have lower RAM.. and all that power, has to be run on 2 screens, and at least one of those screens in Stereoscopic 3D.

Now what should we gain from this. Well first, if you're responsible for a multi-million dollar company and you have to make a decision of where to dedicate that money, it's not a good idea to throw a ton of it, to something that you don't even have. Rein makes a good point about Nintendo "I think if they considered that our engine would be good on it, they would have probably talked to us about it" Or maybe Other side, is.. Nintendo needs to show more respect to Western Developers.

@jackal Thank you for spelling that out much more eloquently than I could. People here seem to underestimate the power in a modern Smartphone. On top of everything you said, the iPhone 3GS also incorporates the use of the PowerVR SGX 535, a really nice GPU Intel stole for it's GMA500 and 600 graphics chips, which does support programmable Shaders, which, Unreal Engine 3 is heavily based on. While it seems the 3DS' Pica200 uses a lot of Fixed Function shaders, much like the Wii.

Apple's A4, Saumsung's Hummingbird and TI's new OMAP just go higher from there.

@Duscrom

"While it seems the 3DS' Pica200 uses a lot of Fixed Function shaders, much like the Wii."

If the Pica 200 uses fixed function hardware, then it makes perfect sense why Nintendo dumped NVIDIA for DMP; fixed function hardware, especially 4/5 year old hardware, is cheaper to manufacture than programmable hardware. IMHO, though, Nintendo definitely needs to bite the bullet at some point and make the jump to modern hardware. Xbox 360 and PS3 devs had a tremendously hard time jumping from fixed function to programmable hardware (XBOX-centric devs less so because the mutant Geforce 3 in the XBOX had programmable shaders), and, given how much contemporary hardware has evolved in the last 5 years, Nintendo's going to be bitten in the @ss much harder. And multicore processing, either homogeneous or heterogeneous, is cited as the single hardest thing to do in the current generation; by the time Nintendo incorporates that hardware and experiences the extremely harsh growing pains associated with learning how to use it, Sony and Microsoft first party devs will literally be years ahead of them all things being equal. I can live with slow hardware if it isn't a technological antique.