Star Wars: The Old Republic systems director Damion Schubert hosted a panel at GDC Online 2010 this week about that excruciating aspect of gameplay known as "The Grind," which he defined as any time developers ask players to do something they don't enjoy in order to open up something that they will enjoy.
Most developers use the grind to fill out gameplay content -- handcrafted, "gold standard" content is much tougher to make, whereas grindy content is cheap to put together. But sometimes it comes in handy, said Schubert. While making SWTOR, BioWare actually found that it was putting "too much gold-quality content into the game." Players would be confronted with a Star Destroyer to fight through, a lost Wookiee to save, and a Sith quest to complete; and Schubert said that "we had, by jamming all of this good stuff together, actually made it grindy."
So to fix the issue, BioWare first cut some of the least powerful stories (the lost Wookiee didn't make the cut, Schubert confirmed), and then spaced the rest of them out. Additionally, a feature called "bonus quests" will create optional tiny grinds -- players will be offered extra grind-style goals ("Kill 10 Stormtroopers") while running other quests. That "keeps the activity level up, but lets the gold-standard content breathe," according to Schubert.
He admitted that the grind isn't always a bad thing -- developers sometimes have great reasons to add grinding, and there's a perception factor to consider, as well (one player's maximum effort is another's boring grind). But developers should be able to balance the grind with content and activities that players do care about, Schubert urged, creating a full experience that requires different kinds of efforts for equally different kinds of rewards.
Reader Comments (31)
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 8:11AM This Little Man Says His Name Is said
NOOO!
Chewbaka :(
Chewbaka :(
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 8:17AM Come on Chang said
1 Wookiee down, 3499 to go to level up !
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 8:43AM ReadingRambo said
There is something really special about how Bioware approaches their games. I, for one, cannot wait to sink my teech into this.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 8:46AM Negatron said
SWOTOR fell off of my radar for some reason. Can anyone tell me if the game has gone live or is in beta?
As with any PC game of the MMO genre, buying it on launch day is always a game of Russian Roulette.
As with any PC game of the MMO genre, buying it on launch day is always a game of Russian Roulette.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 9:00AM bm111 said
"But developers should be able to balance the grind with content and activities that players do care about,"
See and that's my nr. 1 problem with MMO's, they have hours of mandatory crap you don't care about, -by design-. Talk about a waste of free time.
See and that's my nr. 1 problem with MMO's, they have hours of mandatory crap you don't care about, -by design-. Talk about a waste of free time.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 9:29AM thisredengine said
@bm111
I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't most hobbies and interests count as a waste of time?
Reply
I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't most hobbies and interests count as a waste of time?
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 10:19AM bm111 said
@noyesa: Yeah, that makes it even worse. You're supposed to GET paid to do things you don't care about, not the other way around!
@thisredengine: What wouldn't count as a waste of time? Things that you DO care about. Such as having fun? That's what I was saying, if you were paying attention.
Reply
@thisredengine: What wouldn't count as a waste of time? Things that you DO care about. Such as having fun? That's what I was saying, if you were paying attention.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 2:07PM Mmmmz said
@thisredengine
A game becomes a waste of time when you start playing it just for the sake of playing it and your enjoyment levels cease to exist.
MMOs require a lot of time and after you get settled in it ends up being a waste of time for most people... This usually happens when you reach a plateau related to the level you're at. You know there's good shit to be had if you GRIND just a little more, but said grinding will take hours to weeks simply because the game didn't manage your time well. Such as allowing you to plow through the "story" or "events" without warning that you actually need to be at a certain level to continue.
There's grinding in the beginning of MMOs but I think most people don't mind it because the game is new to them and they hope things will change later on.
Anyways... I won't be messing with this sucker unless it's free to play with microtransactions. I normally hate microtransactions and "DLC" but for MMOs it works perfectly and really only works there. Plus, I hear that if the game itself is actually decent people will stay pay for things with it...
Reply
A game becomes a waste of time when you start playing it just for the sake of playing it and your enjoyment levels cease to exist.
MMOs require a lot of time and after you get settled in it ends up being a waste of time for most people... This usually happens when you reach a plateau related to the level you're at. You know there's good shit to be had if you GRIND just a little more, but said grinding will take hours to weeks simply because the game didn't manage your time well. Such as allowing you to plow through the "story" or "events" without warning that you actually need to be at a certain level to continue.
There's grinding in the beginning of MMOs but I think most people don't mind it because the game is new to them and they hope things will change later on.
Anyways... I won't be messing with this sucker unless it's free to play with microtransactions. I normally hate microtransactions and "DLC" but for MMOs it works perfectly and really only works there. Plus, I hear that if the game itself is actually decent people will stay pay for things with it...
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 9:06AM rayonic said
Some people will never be happy.
"Killing enemies over and over is a grind!"
DEV: "Okay, here's a bunch of quests instead."
"Quests are grindy!"
DEV: "Well then here are a bunch of well crafted stories to play through."
"Ugh, now we have to grind through stories?"
DEV: "WTF do you want?!"
"...you suck, I quit!" (logs off and proceeds to GRIND through some TV and GRIND through some web sites, and maybe GRIND through a book later.)
"Killing enemies over and over is a grind!"
DEV: "Okay, here's a bunch of quests instead."
"Quests are grindy!"
DEV: "Well then here are a bunch of well crafted stories to play through."
"Ugh, now we have to grind through stories?"
DEV: "WTF do you want?!"
"...you suck, I quit!" (logs off and proceeds to GRIND through some TV and GRIND through some web sites, and maybe GRIND through a book later.)
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 9:23AM Negatron said
@rayonic well said.
It all depends on how the grind is brought to the player i think. Its an MMO so it fits in the picture, anyone who TRULY dislikes it, should stick to console game for immediate rewards.
The object of the MMO game, keep subscribers playing. At least Bioware is toggling the idea of making it interesting, i think.
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It all depends on how the grind is brought to the player i think. Its an MMO so it fits in the picture, anyone who TRULY dislikes it, should stick to console game for immediate rewards.
The object of the MMO game, keep subscribers playing. At least Bioware is toggling the idea of making it interesting, i think.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 10:24AM bm111 said
"The object of the MMO game, keep subscribers playing."
That right there. The object of the MMO is to keep people stuck to it like a bad cigarette addiction. They're not for people to have fun. That's why they're inherently bad, and anyone who plays them often should feel bad.
Reply
That right there. The object of the MMO is to keep people stuck to it like a bad cigarette addiction. They're not for people to have fun. That's why they're inherently bad, and anyone who plays them often should feel bad.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 9:56AM VGJunkie said
As long as they don't have stupid "collect 20 ewok skulls" and have the drop rate being totally crappy I'd be ok with the "grind" quests.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 10:08AM ajbrown141 said
@VGJunkie You can never get bored collecting Ewok skulls. They deserve to die.
Reply
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 5:41PM SisypheanLife said
@ajbrown141
I just hope collecting the ewok skulls is like skinning animals in RDR>
Reply
I just hope collecting the ewok skulls is like skinning animals in RDR>
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 10:20AM 2late2die said
I think grind is inherit in most MMOs because they tell "unending" stories. No matter how good or interesting content is, if you don't feel like "the story" is progressing things eventually start feeling like a grind. Note that I said "the story", because your characters level progression is not the same thing. In most good story driven single-player games you keep moving forward throughout the world - you don't get back tot he same "hub" location to organize your inventory and pick up some quests. Instead the new quests flow naturally from old quest and from moving through the world, just like in movies or books. But you can't make an MMO like that, it just wouldn't work. So the grind remains.
I think the closest I've seen an MMO come to this kinda single-player-like experience was Guild Wars, and of course that part of it was fairly short (you got through the "story" and then did the high level pvp) and some would argue it wasn't a true MMO anyway. So there you go.
I think the closest I've seen an MMO come to this kinda single-player-like experience was Guild Wars, and of course that part of it was fairly short (you got through the "story" and then did the high level pvp) and some would argue it wasn't a true MMO anyway. So there you go.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 10:34AM PlasticRat said
To me, "The Grind" was always part of the appeal of MMOs. It was basically hanging out with buddies, killing monsters and just doing cool stuff on your own time.
"The Grind" wasn't holding you back from doing cool stuff, it WAS the cool stuff you did with friends.
Then suddenly a bunch of ADHD kids got told that "MMOs r lik totalli kool now dood!! LOL!!" and suddenly "The Grind" got named and became a bad word.
"The Grind" wasn't holding you back from doing cool stuff, it WAS the cool stuff you did with friends.
Then suddenly a bunch of ADHD kids got told that "MMOs r lik totalli kool now dood!! LOL!!" and suddenly "The Grind" got named and became a bad word.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 11:15AM Trojan said
Maybe we can rescue the Wookie in the first expansion. Haha.
Man, I'm SO looking forward to this. I played WoW for 4 years (haven't played since February) and I've been kinda burnt out on MMOs for a while now, but I'm very excited for SW:TOR. I think Bioware is going to make a really good MMO.
Man, I'm SO looking forward to this. I played WoW for 4 years (haven't played since February) and I've been kinda burnt out on MMOs for a while now, but I'm very excited for SW:TOR. I think Bioware is going to make a really good MMO.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 11:29AM golobulus said
or eventually someone finds a glitch...and grinding becomes obsolete.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 1:34PM Phil A said
Ok, so everybody hate me, but the best game to address this issue was Tabula Rasa. Bar none. There was enough grind to make accomplishments feel like accomplishments, but they didn't end up being super-grindy. And you could get a buddy to help, ad-hoc, and you could BOTH enjoy your leveling-up or goal attainment. Pour one out for Tabula Rasa when you get a chance.
I am not convinced about the grindy-ness of ToR (or lack thereof). Developer always say these things, and then , yep, there you are trying to knock down 4000 troopers to get the right lightsaber crystal you need to finish an important quest. Have no doubt I WILL be playing ToR, but i might not play it as much as I could, depending on how bored I get with the grind...
I am not convinced about the grindy-ness of ToR (or lack thereof). Developer always say these things, and then , yep, there you are trying to knock down 4000 troopers to get the right lightsaber crystal you need to finish an important quest. Have no doubt I WILL be playing ToR, but i might not play it as much as I could, depending on how bored I get with the grind...
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 3:44PM Automagically said
Seriously? They want us to believe they removed good content from the game? Why not just come out directly and say we lied about how much content we made and now we are backing down on our claims. As if any list of generic quests isn't going to feel like grind. This is supposed to be an MMO?How about some world content that doesn't pit players against each other and doesn't just feel like a checklist.
I'm sure by level 3 I'll be killing lizards and gathering livers from them to bring to someone for no reason and no consequences, but at least I'll get to watch 5 minutes of boring voiced cut-scenes for the privilege of doing do.
I'm sure by level 3 I'll be killing lizards and gathering livers from them to bring to someone for no reason and no consequences, but at least I'll get to watch 5 minutes of boring voiced cut-scenes for the privilege of doing do.
Posted: Oct 8th 2010 7:26PM Crayola Q Pants ESQ said
I kind of just wish they managed out a way to make grind more enjoyable (yes, it's not technically a grind anymore, but still.
May be a stretch but I think so many of the most addictive games have large components of what could be considered grindy, where you're doing the same thing over and over again to increase something) ala GoW2's horde mode, Puzzle Quest, many casual games, etc. But the core mechanics of the "grind" are fun which seems to be the difference.
May be a stretch but I think so many of the most addictive games have large components of what could be considered grindy, where you're doing the same thing over and over again to increase something) ala GoW2's horde mode, Puzzle Quest, many casual games, etc. But the core mechanics of the "grind" are fun which seems to be the difference.
Posted: Oct 9th 2010 12:58AM Ruthless Gravity said
I don't mind grinding, but as long as it isn't a repetitive-only task to just level up. Which from the looks of it, isn't - so I'm on board with this.
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