Final Fantasy XIII postmortem talks about lack of shared vision on dev team

@DeeZeee

So did I!

@DeeZeee Group hug!

@DeeZeee
I liked it, a lot. I liked the linearity, and the battle system was fun. When such a linear game can keep me entertained for 50-60hours on story alone, I say it's good value. Some liked it, some didn't, simple as that. I'm luckily in the happy group.

@DeeZeee Not about liking the game or not, its that Square could, and should, have done better.

@DeeZeee
Agreed. This is one of the few recent games that I actually enjoy playing and looking forward to play whenever I'm not. Final Fantasy games have always been linear so it can deliver an epic story, so I don't really understand why people start whining about it now. It's beautiful, great battle system, great music (even better than FF8 imo), and great characters + story.

@pika2000

Seriously?

I respectfully disagree with nearly everything you've just asserted. The Stagger system arbitrarily lengthened battles that should have been simple--those stupid Armadillo mobs come to mind. The music was AWFUL--the compositions themselves were okay (at best) but the music and environment were completely disingenuous. Instead of enhancing it, the music shattered whatever atmosphere the game managed to create visually. Better than FFVIII's music? Sorry, but there isn't anything in here even a hundredth as good as "Liberi Fatali".

The characters were boring, underwent little significant change, and more than half of them were outright annoying. You hardly got to interact with the world you were saving!

You were right about one thing, though. It was pretty.

@DeeZeee cheers i loved XIII too!

@FruitFcker and i disagree with everything you said. FFXIII sound track is one of the best among FF titles and yes is way better that VIII. Characters are not boring at all.

The devs themselves have admitted they couldn't do a proper game world because they spent too much time on the graphics, not because of any gameplay consideration. Knowing this, anyone who says they liked it just sounds like they love getting it up the butt from squenix. Anyone who supports this game supports the death of games and the rise of vapid, non-interactive CG jpop idol showcase movies.

@DokiDokiBawanga

Fair enough if you want to disagree, but you can't seriously believe that a game featuring Leona Lewis' music is better than Nobuo Uematsu's classic compositions. Even Faye Wong's "Eyes on Me" was actually part of the game--played by Raine, with whom Laguna was in love, in the hotel.

The music in FFXIII is bad. It's forgettable (if I played you a track right now, I'd be shocked if you could tell me which area of the game it's from, with one or two exceptions). There are awful little things about it, like the woman singing arbitrarily in the background in the middle of a freaking cyberjungle. I'm sorry, is there some girl hiding in the razorleaves going LA LA LA LA LAAAA, inexplicably following me around? This happens again and again throughout the game. It was like Vanille left her little pink iPod on the whole time.

And I'll say it again: the music wasn't just poor, but it did NOT reflect the environments at all. It was as if they chose the music for each area out of a hat, and if it didn't sync up, oh well.

All respect to you for enjoying the game and the music--I wish I could have--but I think it's a bit of wanting to love it, as opposed to loving it for objective reasons.

@FruitFcker
wow, I'm impressed. I totally agree with you though. All the memories about every scene from previous FF come with music in the background. The bar scene in VIII, the opera scene in VI, the scene where Cecil turns from dark to light in IV, the awesome battle scene in I and II, the opening scene of VII and X, crystal and chocobo theme. They were all excellently done and feel perfectly fit with the scene. Those are great memories, thank you for making me thinking about it. Now I will blame you if I can't get Eyes on you and Melodies of life out of my head today!!

@DeeZeee
Unlike most people, I look for story rather than choice in my RPGs. This is why I like games like FF13. And combat is pretty dang awesome too.

@FruitFcker

And thats the key right there...it was pretty...thats about it.

I read one player review that said it best. "This is what happens when gameplay takes a backseat to graphics".

I have NEVER not finished a Final Fantasy game, but I simply couldn't take it anymore. I kept grinding and kept grinding and kept grinding because all the "offical" reviews said it would get better. One would say "after 10 hrs" the next would say "after 20 hrs" and so on and so on...

But it never did. After those hour marks passed. It was still linear, it was still boring, and most definitely the characters....at least the ones you even had access to HALF WAY THOUGH THE GAME....were very annoying. This was without a doubt, one of the worst games I've ever played. Never before had a game pretty much 'forced' me to do what it wanted, while pretending that I was in control.

And this game also showed why many gaming websites and magazines are bankrupt and abandoned by players. All the pre-release reviews for this game were in the 9-10 range. All the player reviews for this game were in the 6-7 range. NEVER have I seen such a large gap between reality, and the fiction that is "official" reviews. Perhaps players would have like the game as much as reviewers did, if we got some of the free swag those "official" reviewers get.

Bottom line is, with the hype and antiicipation this game had...it was horrible. And when I went to trade mine in to get God of War III instead, the stor employee had one statement that said it all

"did you manage to finish it?....Most of the people who have traded thiers in didn't. Some even wanted a refund cause they were so upset"

That is FFXIII in a nutshell.

@BFBeast666

I didn't really mind the combat system, it's the characters I hated: I hated them all. I never thought I'd hate ALL characters in a specific video game.

@BFBeast666 Yeah, too bad for you, really awesome game IMO. AS for the 20-hour linearity, it's like open world except you don't have to make choices :O So is that bad? And awesome gameplay is true isn't that a big factor of playing a game? And the story+character development could've kept me going on by itself.

@BFBeast666

What he said, i spent 50 hours playing that game hoping it would "open up" ... It never did. The only thing that game did right was the combat system and the visuals. The characters sucked, the story sucked, the levels sucked, the progression system sucked, the inventory system sucked. The game just... sucked.

:O(

@The Spy

Like open world except you don't have to make choices? Okay.

I had to stop playing this game after 15 hours. The combat system wasn't enough to carry this game. Biggest disappoint of 2010 for me.

@Bentzero
I was embarrassed when anyone would walk in the room while I was playing. The characters and music were that bad. The music being bad was especially disappointing. Just the same bad song remixed 30 different ways. Played the 20 hours till the game became not linear, and then realized that I had arrived at something even worse.

@BFBeast666 I am a HUGE Final Fantasy fan. Started playing with FFVI (better known as III over here). I was really looking forward to losing myself in XIII so when it came from gamefly yesterday I couldn't wait until my work was done so I could fire it up.

And after "playing" the game for an hour I'm going to send it back. In that hour of "playing" the game, I watched a good 40 minutes of cut scenes. Sorry I didn't realize I was watching Advent Children. If you want classic FF gameplay pick up Blue Dragon. This game is a glorified CG Movie that lets you press a button on occasion (heck they might as well have left that part out with the Auto Attack mode where the computer picks your move for you). I have never felt so disappointed in an FF game.

One highlight was Sazh with his Chocobo chick in his fro.

I reluctantly got FF13 for 16 bucks at amazon. I made it past the crystal ocean and then couldnt take the boredom any longer. I swear the first part of the game where you spent hours on the train tracks was one of the WORST gaming experiences Ive ever had. I thought the entire game was going to take place on those damn tracks, it felt never ending, the linearity was mind numbing. It really is a terrible game and extremely poorly produced. The fact that they spent such a ridiculously long time in each boring area instead of using that development time to create a fun dynamic level that was shorter is nothing more than incompetence.

@BFBeast666

There are a lot of problems with FFXIII. The story, characters and dialogue are lacking and not everyone liked the battle system. I, however, think that the linearity of this game is being blown out of proportion. I blame the minimap, it's what gave everyone the impression that FFXIII was one long tunnel. After I turned the minimap off the game didn't feel so obviously linear to me. Seriously, try it. The devs should have masked the linearity better.

@MDizzy Someone replied to my original post. It's not showing in the thread so I'll repost it.

Camilomf said

If you're really a HUGE FF fan, did u really wait this whole time to get it on gamely? And make a decision on a 100+hour RPG in one hour?

Ppl love bashing this game. And ppl love rehashing of the same FPS over and over. A lot of ppl follow the flock.

FFXIII is an awesome game. The story is beautiful, intricate, intelligent and poetic. Some characters are weird, it's a Japanese RPG afterall, with a lot of it's old conventions. The game is incredibly beautiful. The music is amazing, and I've listened to the entire 5 disc soundtrack (some dude said here it's the same song remixed...) after 'finishing' the game. I'm over 100 hours in and keep coming back.

Haters just love to hate, even when their opinions are incomplete...

@MDizzy

Yes I did wait until I had time to actually spend with the game and enjoy it. I have a wife, kids, and a job. Sorry if me not getting it day of doesn't make me enough of a fan. Go back and play FFVI, and VII and see how they drop you in the action and PUT YOU IN CONTROL right away. XIII seems like one of those CD-I games that let you make a decision on occasion.

Actually, I don't LOVE to bash this game...it bothers me that the game turned out like this. Again, play something like Blue Dragon (by the original creator of FF and the team that did Chrono Trigger one of the most loved Squenix games back when they were just Square). That's what I expect from Final Fantasy. Something that grabs you by the collar and pulls you in.

It's funny, I usually take the role of JRPG apologist. But no one can tell me that XIII can hold a candle to some of the better entries in the series. I'm looking at VI, VII, and X

And I feel that my opinion is valid because I have played through many a crappy and many a quality JRPG and I have never been so disconnected from a game as I was with XIII. If you liked the game, good for you. Me I like to actually play my games.

@MDizzy "The story is beautiful, intricate, intelligent and poetic."

No, no it really isn't.

There are so many plot holes it's not even funny. The story isn't explained to the player - fully - at all. In fact the characters make some of the most ridiculous decisions I've ever seen in a video game; hell the game even changes its own logic mid-game to try and make sure the bullshit they create seems half-plausible.

I'm not even going to mention the hilariously stupid Deux Ex Machina at the end of the game...

Then there's the chaarcter dialouge; the horrible, hilarious dialouge; if you think "Moms are tough", "SERAH" [every 5 minutes] and

"There's no hope for L'ci"
"There's you"
"It's my name, not who I am"

Is well-written dialogue, that sounds plausible or human then I can't take anything you say seriously.

@Resonanse And yes; I am well aware that what I quoted is not your feeling on the matter; but I had to say something to the post you quoted...

@mikemantia

I personally felt that there was hardly any grinding except for end game stuff, unless you wanted to hang out on Pulse for awhile. Mostly because of level caps - I think they wanted the boss battles to be challenging no matter how much you tried to grind. You might have just needed to change up tactics.

@mikemantia

grinding had almost no role in the game, unless you were going for some post-game missions. if you weren't beating someone, it's because you either didn't have the right strategy or weren't executing it well enough.

while i've always been a grinder (level 99 with all characters in most every FF game i've played), i thought that FF13's emphasis move away from grinding towards strategy was one of the game's bright spots.

@mikemantia
All the espers had a pretty specific weakness that would enable you to defeat them pretty quickly iirc. I don't think I grinded before Pulse.

@mikemantia

Yeah, for Sazh's the best way to do it was play the buffer role with him, Haste is a real major key to that fight. Buff yourself and Vanille best you can, then attack and hit him hard until the buffs wear off.

When you use Libra on the summons you can see what exactly raises the gauge for them.

Only disappointing thing about that part, I might add, is the fire summon he uses ain't Ifrit.

@Jawmuncher yeah, wasn't FFX pretty linear too?

@Dirge You'ld be hard pressed to find a FF who's storyline gameplay wasn't linear. Its beyond me whats so different now. I loved FFXIII and loved ever hour spent that it took me to platinum it also.

@Jawmuncher

I don't know why so many people these days complain about games being linear. Linear and open gameplay/story have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally I like linear because they can focus on developing characters in the way they want to portray them, and can pay off in the long run if it's a really good story.

Seriously, is there anyone other than me who can't see Chrono Trigger, FF6 or FF7 with an open storyline without them all being ruined???

@Mannyman
Linear story is one thing. Linear as in run down this hallway to the next cutscene over and over again is something else. FFX you followed the linear story. While following this story, you traveled the to wonderous locals, explored the areas you were in, talked to people, and immersed yourself in the game world. FFXIII is linear as in go from point A to point B, watch cutscene or fight boss. The environments left no real impression for me other than narrow hallway with a different backdrop. Boss fights were fairly annoying as it seemed there was only one way (linear again) to go about defeating each one.

@KillaPat

Sure I agree with what you are saying about FF 13, but I'm talking about the bigger picture as far as how modern games in general are critiqued. Also, I must argue that FF6, FF7, and CT mostly play the same way. In FF6/FF7/CT you have to do very specific events in their respective order to advance and the path you take is generally the same every time. Toward the end of the games the optional quests open up and you can complete them or head on to the final boss, but other than that story advancement is the same. Nowadays, people expect more than that and tend to lower their grade in such cases. My point is that too many people complain about not having enough control about character and story choices, which could ultimately influence the direction of new RPGs. See games like Oblivion, Fable, Fallout, Mass Effect... Of course, none of those games are JRPGs, but I just hope not too many devs steer away from the classic linear format to emulate what those successful franchises are doing. I'm not saying that these games aren't good or that there shouldn't be open design, I just think that linear design shouldn't be abandoned just because a lot of people (particularly new school gamers) frown upon it.

In the case of FF13, it should have at least had an overworld.

@RagingStormX ^^^^hours* ...

@Dirge Yeah FFX was linear, and it sucked ass. Idiots just liked it because it was the first "next gen" FF with high detail 3D jpop idol models and pretty boy voice acting. The game world was utter crap, barely any better than FF13. It had, count them, TWO proper towns that even came close to what we'd seen in FF's before (the rest were just one screen with some people standing around which doesn't count). All the rest was press forward as you moonwalk along a narrow straight path for 5 hours at a time. People who bought into FFX and keep quoting it as a great game, made FF13 happen. Yes, you.

@arnavdesai

Depends on what philosophies you follow in software development. It is not uncommon for software developers to create prototypes or demos as the first goal in an ongoing process of refinement and expansion. But games rely so much on graphics, story, music, voice acting, et cetera that, even if they did follow these processes, these "demos" would look nothing like the demos we see and play.

To make a demo as polished as it was without touching the rest of the game just seems crazy to me.

@serge808

Airship.

@Ballistic H

or an open mind.

@serge808
I had an open mind. The story just seemed to be lacking in places.

@serge808

My comment was directed at Ballistic H, and the general idea that any singular idea (airships, towns, etc.) is what accounts for a game being good or bad.