Sony begins legal action against PS3 hackers

@SpiderPrime What is his basis?

@SpiderPrime

I think the key difference here is that GeoHot is completely right.

We've already settled this issue several times over the last two decades. First media companies declared that it was illegal for you to rip your own CDs and DVDs. Then Apple declared that it was illegal for you to jailbreak your iPhone.

In each and every case, they were shot down, and the Library of Congress has declared that this is allowable under copyright law.

The funny thing is that if you look at the complaint, Sony is accusing GeoHot (who has not distributed any mechanism for pirating software) of contributory copyright infringement.

This was the same claim that was leveled in the 70's when Sony produced its Betamax tape machine. Media companies hysterically cried that this device was illegal, because even though there were legal personal uses for the machine, the device could and would also be used for piracy.

Sony won handily in court. Maybe they could loan GeoHot some of their lawyers to defend him.

@copa

"the Library of Congress has declared that this is allowable under copyright law."

LOL . So what?

@Dustin F

"LOL . So what?"

So Sony filed suit in a US Court, claiming violation of the DMCA. As prescribed by the DMCA, the Library of Congress's rulings are used to determine whether there was a civil violation.

@copa You're mixing up a lot of doctrines there.

Ripping CDs, ripping DVDs, and jailbreaking were illegal for different reasons, and ripping DVDs is still not per se legal. Ripping CDs were deemed a fair use back up of your media and thus not copyright infringement. Jailbreaking a mobile phone (and yes, it is limited to mobile phones) was just now deemed an exception to the DMCA. Ripping DVDs is not been deemed OK under the DMCA other than using the clips of the copyrighted material on the DVD for criticism or commentary, which itself was only deemed legal when the jailbreaking was deemed ok.

As for Betamax, time shifting the copyrighted work was deemed ok - it has nothing to do with the DMCA, which was passed decades later.

I'm not being a sony cheerleader here, I'm just pointing out that Sony is raising the DMCA as the law being violated here, and GeoHot does not fall clearly into any of the previously-decided exceptions.

@pmiddy

Good points, pdmiddy. I'm aware that the Library of Congress declared activities like ripping your CD's and jailbreaking are techinically declared legal for certain fair use activities, but the important thing here is that it is now completely legal for you to distribute software and instructions for ripping CD's or jailbreaking your iPhone. It is the responsibility of the end user to engage in fair use.

That is all that GeoHot is doing here. He is distributing the mechanism for jailbreaking the PS3. If someone uses that mechanism to engage in illegal activity, there is no legal protection for that person.

I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress hadn't made an explicit ruling on DVD's. But I do note that there were many legal actions filed in response to the distribution of the DeCSS key, and with regards to DVD-ripping software. And a decade later, the big media companies have ZERO court victories to show for that.

I think I was pretty explicit in my first post, that Sony was sued for contributory copyright infringement in the '70s, not for a DMCA violation (DMCA was passed in the '90s).

@copa No I know you were right about Sony and their case in the 70s. I was more arguing that you're overall point - that this sort of thing has been decided many times already - was not exactly accurate.

As for distributing the software, Sony can make the case he is contributing to the copyright infringement. Look at the Grokster Supreme Court case - that's why they lost, even though there were noninfringing uses.

@pmiddy

The Groksters, the Napsters, the Limewires will get shut down every single time. These companies were actually operating services on an ongoing basis. They were making money off of these services, and it was proven in court that they knew damn well most people were using those services for infringing purposes.

What GeoHot did is distribute a method and information for jailbreaking your personal PS3, if you own one.

In this scenario, the big companies lose every time. The biggest court fight was against Andrew Bunning. Instead of a PS3 root key, Bunning distributed a DeCSS key, and a method for ripping DVD's.

The media companies threw all of their eggs into this basket, spending years and huge amounts of cash litigating Andrew Bunning. And they lost big time.

The next closest scenario is the situation with jailbreaking mobile devices. Apple declared it illegal, the Library of Congress said it's just fine.

I agree that the specifics of this case have not yet been litigated, but there is a pretty clear pattern of precedents here.

@pmiddy What he said. It's nice to see you again, pmiddy. Let's start a lawfirm: Pmiddy and Wealthofinsight, Joystiq attorneys at law.

@wealthofinsight Sounds good. Draw up the LLC papers!

@copa Interesting about Bunner. I hadn't heard of his case. A little googling though and it looks like his case was dropped because CSS wasn't a trade secret at that point, and the DVDCCA was bringing a trade secret case against him, not a DMCA action. THAT's why they didn't have a case.

And the money aspect of Grokster wasn't the issue - it was that they designed software with the knowledge and intent that their users would use it to commit copyright infringement.

I'm not being an apologist - I personally would like an explicit legal carve out that says I can circumvent copyright protections to make backups of my DVDs - it can even exempt rentals from the exemption (which is what the media companies are scared of: rent-rip-return). And it's no skin off my back if this guy wins or loses, but I'm just saying, I don't think it's going to be a clear case and he's exonerated.

@SpiderPrime

I own a ton of games. I've bought many of them new, many of them used. Buying used is barely different than pirating, since the developer made nothing.

Here's my issue - I can not back my ps3 games up. This really bothers me. We should have the right to back up our games, just as we should have the right to do anything to something we own that we want.

Would this allow piracy? Sure. But piracy isn't the end of the world, because not everyone pirates. I'll still buy games new, and I'm sure plenty of you would too.

Basically, I want my rights protected (the ability to backup things i own), for example, far more than i want to protect against piracy. Most pirates I've known have such a massive library -- they collect more than they play. They aren't hurting the industry nearly as bad as used game selling does (and for the record, i think you should be able to sell used games).

The industry should only be as big as it can be, with all other considerations taken into effect. If that makes the industry smaller, so be it. But let me retain the right to backing up games, buying used games, etc. And I'll still be buying new games too, just like many of you. Don't artificially protect the industry by removing MY rights.

@ferret I take exception with something you say. You say buying used is almost as bad a pirating. C'mon now. I buy everything new - EVERYTHING - it's because I like pristine copies of discs, but I can understand why people buy used games. They're cheaper, the developer DID get something the first time around AND presumably that first buyer can no longer enjoy the game. It's like a library to me - if only one person can enjoy it at a time, that's ok - the developer got their money for letting one person at a time enjoy the game. But with pirating thousands of people can play a game at the same time, the developer didn't get money for that, and that isn't right.

Used games have their place. A market for used everything exists - I mean, is the Salvation Army almost as bad as shoplifting?

Just something to think about.

@Captain Planet Planeteer Power

Judging by his abilities, I'm sure he has a decent job somewhere in the software industry.

@xHaldirx I think that the more that companies fight the piracy the more people jump on the hack/jailbreaking. I have a feeling that if Microsoft did what Sony does with constant firmware updates, disabling features to prevent security issues that more people would be pirating games on the 360. I know back when you could softmod an original Xbox I only learned that you could do it after I was surfing on the internet and gaming sites.

My point is that fighting it only puts the issue in the public eye and seems to cause more damage than good in my opinion than if they just said "meh" and took the marginal hit in lost sales. The more companies push the more the people will push back it seems.

@Jae Brav Replied to the wrong person. :(

@Tereso

Agreed. Game piracy has gone up significantly lately. Especially from hacks that opened up devices like the iPhone (which I don't have a problem with) but when they take advantage of it with 'services' like Installous, piracy quickly becomes rampant. In this case, I don't mind them hacking the PS3, but piracy will inevitably become an issue and in the long run no one will benefit.

@Tereso I do the same thing, but you have to separate the concepts of what GeoHot is doing. I buy my games, as I own my system. I would like to be able to use the hardware as I choose. What these guys are doing helps people to use the hardware as they choose.

Right now, I have an xbox that doesn't always recognize the disc in the drive. It had problems less than a year after I bought it, but I didn't want to send it away. I also don't like it booting to the spotlight channel as opposed to my xbox. In order to play a game, I have to keep rebooting the system or eject the disc multiple times until it is recognized. Even if it is a retail disc I have loaded on the hard drive. If I could customize my system or load up the latest Xbox media center software, it would be really cool and save me a lot of hassle trying to just play my games. I would thank this guy.

Not buying good games and distributing software is another matter. Being able to customize my machine doesn't make me cheat at every game I own or keep me from buying games.

@Tereso
Get a better job, then. I think most pirates pirate media just because they can, because they hate the way the market is filled with bloated pricing ($10 to see a movie, $40 MSRP for a blu-ray, $60 for a video game, $15 a CD), or because they would have never bought that game in the first place. If I'm going to pirate games, it's going to be throw away titles like RE5 Move Edition (already have the original), Super Street Fighter IV, pretty much any GOTY Edition, or games I would have never given a chance (like DC Online). If I enjoy the game, I'll buy it new to show support to the developers.

@mywhitenoise

As much as I'd love to believe you buy the games you did enjoy, I just can't (but hey maybe you do). I can however believe you feel entitled to pirate games since they are "throw away" games even though you somehow still want to play them. But, you could just rent them if that were the case...

@Tereso Yes, because the 360, Wii, and DS have gone on to become major failures thanks to rampant piracy.

@Chibi Chaingun
Well I can't prove to you right now what my collection looks like...but I can show you a list of PS3 games I own, you'll also see hundreds of blu-rays I own....
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?member=mywhitenoise&ps3=1

I can also provide you a picture of my media when I get home...in 7 hours, but for now this is all I can provide. A picture from 2008. I also own a Slim PS3 now (in addition to my Gunmetal Grey one picture).
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v653/mywhitenoise/?action=view¤t=DSC02006.jpg

@mywhitenoise

Get a better job? Yes because that's such a simple task. He said he saves and holds out. Which is what a lot of responsible adults do. They take care of bills and responsibilities, games are secondary when funds need to go elsewhere.

And I've heard the "I pirate and buy if I like it" and so if you don't like you don't pay. But you might finish the game anyway because, hey, why not? It's already on your system. Go to a restaurant and try this same thing. Order a meal, eat it, tell them you didn't like it so you're not paying for it. Go ahead. I bet it'll work.

@AmanteDuck
"And I've heard the "I pirate and buy if I like it" and so if you don't like you don't pay. But you might finish the game anyway because, hey, why not? It's already on your system."
Because if the game is boring piece of crap, like many of the Wii games I've pirated, I wont even bother wasting my time...got too big of a backlog with games I've already purchased anyway.

"Go to a restaurant and try this same thing. Order a meal, eat it, tell them you didn't like it so you're not paying for it. Go ahead. I bet it'll work."
Actually that DOES work. If I eat something that tastes like total shit, or if they get my order wrong, you're damn right I'm going to complain and get my money back. Restaurants would rather give you your money than causing a scene.

@AmanteDuck That is what some people do not undertand. The fact that I have the money doe snot mean that I can go and buy the game. I save and they buy games. That is after I pay bills, buy food and put gas on my car that gets me to work.

@mywhitenoise

I'm glad you choose to at least buy some games, but I honestly can't follow you on your reasonings for pirating games that you feel are fitting based on your description of them being "throw away". For ex., I rent crappy movies, I buy good ones. Only time I may pirate a movie is if it's next to impossible to get here or technical lock-out reasons that disallow me to watch using traditional avenues to buy it. I simply don't play bad games. However, if I really wanted to try them, I'd probably have a Gamefly subscription like I do to Netflix for movies.

Anyways, I'm not really against hacking these consoles in general. There is one feature I want to be hacked (or just allowed) on the PS3 and that is to allow 3D Blu-Ray movies over non HDMI 1.4 connections. I have a 3D projector but 3D Blu-Ray doesn't allow it to display the content.

@Chibi Chaingun
the thing about renting, for me at least, is that its just too expensive...what is it like $7 a game? That's more than 10% of what the game is worth.
I don't like renting movies either, because there's some movies that I feel ripped off just watching them (Observe and Report, Adventureland)....those movies were so bad, that even though I didn't pay to see them, I still feel like my time was wasted, and I will never get those 2 hours back.

Also, I try not to play horrible games, but it just happens sometimes. I could NOT get into the new Goldeneye, or Epic Mickey.

@Chibi Chaingun

"However, if I really wanted to try them, I'd probably have a Gamefly subscription like I do to Netflix for movies."

This.

@mywhitenoise

[Let's be respectful!]

@GentlemanWrath
Those 43 games are all store bought, not pirated. I probably own more media than 95% of the people commenting on this article.

To everybody else from mywhitenoise.


BURN or Pwnd, which ever you like.

@mywhitenoise

I couldn't care less about the games you legitimately purchased. I'm referring to the many instances of you being a proponent of pirating, you fool. Let's look at some of your very words on the matter:

"...like many of the Wii games I've pirated..."

(About the Wii again) "But since it's easy to hack, I ended up giving them $200 for a console, and hacked a bunch of games I'd never play otherwise..."

"If I'm going to pirate games, it's going to be throw away titles like RE5 Move Edition (already have the original), Super Street Fighter IV, pretty much any GOTY Edition, or games I would have never given a chance (like DC Online)."

This one takes the cake though: "I'm a bit of a pirate myself..."

Once again, you disgust me.

@GentlemanWrath

Your mom told you the same thing. Shut up.

@monkey with glasses

I don't believe I was speaking to you. Please mind your own business.

@mywhitenoise

Try reading on it first then? Or maybe watching a trailer?

@GentlemanWrath

I tend to somewhat agree with him on this. Considering the costs of renting a game these days, I usually download psp games and play a level or two before deciding whether to buy it or not. I never finish a game I don't buy, and the only exceptions are things like GoW which I'll always buy. If they would release demos or trial versions of the games, then I'd have little reason to do what I do. If anything, I consider what I do to be helping the industry, not hurting it. At around 10 bucks a rental, I'd very very rarely rent a game, and as such games would remain unpurchased. I also like being able to play games off the mem stick without have to rip them myself, since that's a pain.

@madsci

Well, I respectfully disagree with you and him. Perhaps our financial situations are different, since I don't find renting a game to be all that expensive. I agree that being able to LEGALLY try before you buy is always a wonderful thing, but I cannot condone piracy. So I can't really comment on the fact that you buy the games after trying them. I'm sure most people aren't like that though.

This is a phenomenon that has directly affected me, since I helped develop a game that was, soon after release, put up on the torrent sites for everyone to download for free instead of paying the $0.99 that it actually cost.

So I am sure that it doesn't come down to the actual cost, because who can't afford a game that's one dollar? It comes down to the fact that people are greedy, self important twits who think that their personal satisfaction is the most important thing in the world, even if it comes at the expense of peoples' livelihoods and if they can take something for free instead of paying for it, they almost always will.

A big sarcastic thank you to you, to mywhitenoise and all the other pirate dirt bags who are taking money out of the pockets of game developers worldwide.

Remember, while it may or may not hurt Sony, piracy hurts the game developers the most, and as one, I'm offended. If someone walked into your workplace and stole something that you put hard work into, you wouldn't be happy either, would you?

@GentlemanWrath Your username and avatar go so, so well with your posts (in a good way).

@CrumbBum

But that programmer was eventually released with charges dropped and the case against the company he worked for found in favor of that company, that they had not violated US law. Adobe got nothing but bad press out of that whole thing.

That was actually a mess of a case that should have resulted in multiple lawsuits against US law enforcement and prosecutors, as no crime was committed on in the US and the things that he was accused of were legal in Russia, where the acts were committed. He was basically arrested for talking about what he had done at a development conference.

@CrumbBum

Wikipedia entry on the man and case if you're interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Sklyarov

@CrumbBum - I'm not sure it matters whether or not Sony wins an injunction here. The code is out there, and like with the DVD and HD-DVD keys, there is no way to put that genie back in the bottle. Getting the code/tools/etc off of Geohot's site doesn't mean a whole lot once thousands of people in many different countries (and thus jurisdictions) have the files.

@BananaBoat

Absolutely true. No matter what is said from Sony, this is an epidemic that cannot be simply patched up.

And, Courtney, those are great points. I don't know enough about the legal system to know if the conclusion to the Skylarov case can be immediately applied to this one. The part that was interesting to me was that in both cases, the company reacted defensively to being caught with some insecure practices and responded with their only remaining ammo - legal escalation.

As a PS3 owner, my chief concerns are (a) the development community starts to see diminishing returns in developing PS3 titles due to a growing piracy threat, and (b) that Sony starts diverting what already seem like sparse investments in new features to the platform to combating piracy. I don't really miss my Other OS (although I had one installed) but if Sony's PS3 devs become a full time whack-a-mole antipiracy team, that will really erode any chance of seeing new functionality come to PS3.

@TheMCFacemanBandcampcom

yet 360 was hacked years ago? o.O