Runic: No subscription for Torchlight MMO

Bad analogy.

Apple prices their equipment sometimes 500% over the original price simply because they can, and people who see Apple as the best will pay.

There is what's called a "Apple tax" added to their hardware for a reason.

Quality does not = price in this case.

Altho in the perception of quality, you are right.

@Drakkenfyre
Yes, my point isn't that Apple prices their product competitively. My point is that the market has clearly chosen the bar for what they think is the best price for the money.

Apple is doing very well as a company, and WoW is doing very well as an MMO. I personally do not currently own any Apple or Blizzard products, but I do know they they are both leaders in their respective markets right now.

Trying to go against a clear market leader at the same level is very risky. There has to be a better perceived value somewhere

@Lerkero

I think the subscription model is dead. And it will die with WoW when WoW dies, and yes it will, but it will probably take another 5 years or so.

The micro transaction model is crap too. Because 10% of the people are paying for 90% of the game's revenue.

I really think the only model that works is the Guild Wars model where the towns are the only thing massive, and the games are locally hosted. That way you only pay for add ons, instead of passively paying every month, if you play or not.

@Dizazter
The subscription model is not dead, and probably never will be. High profile games come out all the time that still have subscription fees: DC Universe, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Rift. Just because WoW has so many more subscribers does not mean that those games are not profitable, or aren't making more money than they would be if they were free-to-play. Also, your example of Guild Wars makes no sense. How is having cities be the only thing massive profitable? Also, the "games" aren't locally hosted... they're all hosted on NCSoft's servers (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Server).

But to add to the main comment. Coming from a seasoned MMO veteran (been playing since EQ launched in '99 and have played at least 10 different MMO's), WoW is far from the best MMO (other than in terms of sales and profitability). There are many better MMOs out there that are more original and more fun to play than WoW. Apple is not the best phone or computer manufacturer either, most Android phones are $200 when they are launched, just like Apple's iPhone and their manufacturers are doing fine (not Apple fine, but phones like the Droid line and Galaxy S line sell very well). The point I'm trying to make is that price does not equal quality (not always at least). $15 is the standard for online subscriptions, people who play MMOs are used to and are okay with paying that price. Games that are "free-to-play" are not really free, if you want to really play the game, you either have to pay the "optional" $15 a month fee (even the free-to-play games have an optional subscription) or buy what you want a la cart (which never actually gives you everything, they'll still limit your maximum gold, making it impossible to buy things when you're higher in levels, or limit some feature that's only available to subscribers, etc).

@Lerkero

No one else overprices their products as badly as apple does.

So their isn't anyone else releasing things for the same price which makes it a bad analogy.

Also apple isn't the leader of it's demographic. Windows has like an 80-90% market share. There's twice as many android phones out there as there are iphones.

@This Little Man Says His Name Is
There are twice as many Android phones as iPhones because multiple phone manufacturers are able to capitalize on the popularity of Google (again, a company with a perceived level of high quality).

With iPhone, only 1 manufacturer provides that phone and it is Apple. Yet iPhone and iPad are the leaders in their market. I'm not saying there aren't products with better specs, I'm saying based on user experience and perceived quality (on average), Apple is the best right now, and it is very risky to try and put yourself on Apple's level.

My analogy to WoW arrives at this point. Whether WoW is the best MMO is debatable, but in terms of the market, WoW is perceived to be the best MMO based on user experience and quality. It's not like WoW arrived at that point by luck, and I don't think any other MMO can release on the same level as WoW and arrive at anything close by luck. It would take a strong effort, and I believe a part of that effort would HAVE to include being cheaper than WoW.

@Drakkenfyre

At least with an item store you can choose whether or not you spend money.

Be forever delegated to being a second class citizen, and unable to touch other players, or pay and become actually useful, and be able to engage in PVP.

Real choice.

Very few games that offer items for sale offer items that don't impact gameplay. There are a ton of F2P games out there where you HAVE to buy items, or you simply getting screwed by the "free' world.

Some games deliniate free and pay-for players so bad you might as well be playing a separate game.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/5/11/

@Drakkenfyre

Well, it's not exactly a charity. All of these free to play games still need to turn a profit, so if you want to get into the game as hardcore as you would a subscription game, you'd have to drop a little money, and you'd probably end up paying roughly the same amount as a subscription game.

tl;dr Of course you still have to pay for games, it's just a different model.

@Colin
I don't think he's complaining just about the fact that you have to pay. For many people the problem is that introducing a cash shop into F2P games, developers go the lazy route and offer grossly overpowered equipment for sale to entice players, which in turn kills off all sense of balance in the game and turns the game into rampant killing of the "F2P" users by the cash shop buyer users.

@PointlessPuppies

You got one of the complaints.

Let's use STO as an example. It is a pay-for MMO, and has an online store. Half of the games races are purchaseable content, half of the ships are purchaseable content, even minor things like additional slots for multiple outfits, and emotes are purchasable content. They even offer different bridge designs, something that should be selectable in game, for purchase. The item shop has literally half the game in it.

While none of the items are so overpowered that they give a complete and severe advantage over someone without (there are advantages however, if you pay) but it's an example of how greedy companies get.