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Reader Comments (86)

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:40AM Punkrawk Bbob said

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Well if you can't make money off a (failed) game, I suppose they have to make it in the court room. Good luck (or not) to Dyack and company on this endeavor.

ps - Winning this lawsuit won't make Too Human suck any less, Dyack.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:42PM PointlessPuppies said

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@Punkrawk Bbob
Cute. You think this is about Too Human turning out to be crappy.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 1:04PM (Unverified) said

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@PointlessPuppies Yep. He clearly doesn't get it.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 1:14PM Co said

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Anything that could contribute to something befalling Epic Games in a negative light, I am all for it.

Go SK! Reveal the truth!
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:10PM Punkrawk Bbob said

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@PointlessPuppies

I can guarantee you that if Too Human did well, Dyack would not care for this.

Yes, I get "it" and what this is about. I just examine facts
A) No other companies have bitched about similar treatment
B) Sales and reception sucked for TH
C) Gears and TH are two entirely different cats, there would be nothing to gain for Epic by not giving full access / support for their product. They're in the middleware business, this is what they do.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:17PM atrimus said

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@Punkrawk Bbob

how can the suit be to make money from poor sales of Too Human, when the suit began in 2007, a year before Too Human was even released?
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:25PM OnToGloryReturns said

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@Punkrawk Bbob

"No other companies have bitched about similiar treatment"

According to court documents obtained by Kotaku, a federal court saw evidence referring to other licensees, including Disney's Buena Vista Games, that "demonstrated that other [Unreal Engine] licensees expressed many of the very same frustrations that [Silicon Knights] did about representations made by Epic that were unfulfilled and perceived to be misleading."

reading comprehension ftw
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 4:13PM Punkrawk Bbob said

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@atrimus

You can tell a ship is sinking before it's laying on the bottom of the ocean ya know. SK knew this game was a train wreck well before releasing it, citing excuses left and right as to why it was in development for the better half of a decade. No game can take that long to make and have a concrete direction. The game really did suffer for it.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 4:41PM Jennacide said

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@Punkrawk Bbob
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Just because a game takes longer than expected doesn't mean it's destined to failure. Sure, Too Human and Daikatana did it, but countless others have bucked this as well.

As well, the lawsuit can be pointed to as part of the blame for Too Human's lacking aspects. They were sold a false bill of goods by Epic, being told they'd be able to do whatever they wanted for Too Human with the engine, which was a blatant lie. SK decided to cut their loses, as they were already severe and knew the case would take a while, and put the game out in the condition it was in.

Make no bones about it, Epic is in the wrong here. Many companies, not just the ones mentioned in this article, have complained about difficulties getting the engine to cooperate or work like it does for Epic. And evidence has been shown that Gears didn't even run on the copy of UE3 Epic was selling. They make improvements for their games, but don't include those in the engine they sell. That is a crooked practice no matter how you look at it, and VERY misleading.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 4:55PM Punkrawk Bbob said

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@Jennacide

Thats awesome and all, save for the part where the court seems to be siding with Epic. Sooo.... ;) Don't believe everything ailing developers put to print, especially when you have figureheads like Dyack who run their mouth.

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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 5:44PM The Wicker Man said

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@Punkrawk Bbob This is Unreal, I just can't believe they are bitter over such an Epic failure. ;)
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 8:16PM Paviel said

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@Punkrawk Bbob That bodes ill for Duke Nukem Forever, doesn't it?
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 9:54PM Punkrawk Bbob said

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@Paviel

It does, but since it's a different developer finishing it that may bend the rule.
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Posted: Apr 1st 2011 1:20AM PointlessPuppies said

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@Punkrawk Bbob
Wow, you think they're claiming Epic did it deliberately?

Do me a favor. Actually READ the documents, OK? You're making completely baseless and laughable assumptions out of thin air.
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Posted: Apr 1st 2011 5:44AM Punkrawk Bbob said

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@PointlessPuppies

"Wow, you think they're claiming Epic did it deliberately?"

"Gears [of War] comes first, so if you have any Gears tasks, drop work in the main branch and finish Gears tasks."

Sounds like they're claiming it was deliberate to me.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:42AM acefondu said

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Yeah Epic sucks. They quit putting Gears on PC because they feel their fanbase is nothing but pirates. Shows how much they like their fanbase.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:43AM Jack Kevorkian said

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waaaahhhh

no one else has this problem.
i hope silicon knights disappears they seem to be industry poison.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:58AM Billlop said

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@Jack Kevorkian

"a federal court saw evidence referring to other licensees, including Disney's Buena Vista Games, that "demonstrated that other [Unreal Engine] licensees expressed many of the very same frustrations that [Silicon Knights] did about representations made by Epic that were unfulfilled and perceived to be misleading."


Seems to me that a lot of other developers have problems with Epic too.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:59AM The Radio Waves Were Like Snow said

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@Jack Kevorkian

In fact, in the article itself it mentions other licensees who experienced the same problem, as well as other damning evidence of promises breached by Epic.
This isn't about blaming Epic for how bad Too Human was -- it's about seeing redress for a breach of the licensing agreement signed by both parties that could help recoup development costs and put the parties in the place they would have been in had both parties performed their duties under the contract. Too Human still would have underperformed for it's other issues, but development time and costs could have been cut if the allegations made by Silicon Knights are proved to be true.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 1:04PM Jack Kevorkian said

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@Billlop each one of them huge failures that dont know how to code a game. Disney's video game division has been an enormous failure.

Notice how SK has stopped development on everything and instead switched to a Litigation company? yeh, have fun rooting for that group of criminals.

They stole money from their investors on 10 years of being untalented and lazy. I know a few of these pirates they have excellent salesmen but lack the talent section to make anything worthwhile.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 1:08PM Jack Kevorkian said

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@The Radio Waves Were Like Snow I'm not saying they shouldnt have their day in court. I am saying they dont deserve a penny and they seem to be wasting their days finding anyone with any gripes about Epic's middleware to build a straw case. A wonder how other developers dont have as much an issue. And their complaint that Epic cared enough to delay because of Gears competition. Even if you dont like Gears the difference in quality is staggering.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:11PM Guibs said

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@Jack Kevorkian

Question for you. Did you actually took the time to read the article before posing your crap? Please tell me you didn't so we can at least think your lazy and not stupid.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 3:11PM Jack Kevorkian said

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@Guibs which part do you feel i didnt comprehend?
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 4:52PM Jennacide said

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@Jack Kevorkian
From reading it, I'd say you're more hung up on lashing out at SK for some reason, Epic fanboyism maybe, than trying to comprehend any of it. Okay, fine, rag on Buena Vista. What about, oh, Bioware's complaint? When ME1 came out they widely apologized for all the texture pop and other issues, citing poor support from Epic and having to learn it on their own. But since ME1 made money and they didn't want to lose their royalties for the upcoming ME2, Epic put a lot more effort into supporting Bioware this time around. Only when vast sums of money were involved did they suddenly care.

As for SK, Too Human left them in a financial sink hole, with no money to create their own engine for the planned sequel. But you assume their staff is doing nothing but sitting around with their thumbs up their asses while this case is going on? That's a level of naivety that is just baffling at this point in time. Keep spouting your "letigation company" hyperbole nonsense, you're not fooling anyone.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 6:45PM Guibs said

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@Jack Kevorkian

the part where you said in your orignal post that no one else as this problem with Epic, yet, other companies are listed in the same article having similar complaints about Epic.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 9:32PM Duscrom said

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@Jennacide So... I'm guessing you're an employee of SK, right?

Fact: That texture pop in.. You mean the same pop in that plagued several other games, Including Unreal 3 and Gears of War?

Second: I'll admit, I bet that they "held back" engine development for Gears. But maybe I'm old school, where engines were built around a game and modified so that they could be open. That's what made them good. Instead of just random technology, they were built in execution. And games like Doom, Quake, Unreal.. All, while fun, were tech demos. What they agreed upon, I don't know.. I wasn't there.. which brings me to..

Third: I wasn't there. We've only heard only one side of the story really. Other companies complained? Really? So normally people Never complain? While only a tester, I worked for a game company and they were quick to complain at how awful Havoc was. So can we all agree that Havoc should be sued and needs a kick in the balls? Seems like Mass Effect, Bioshock and Lost Oddesy were so awful as a result of Epic's Shenanagans.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:45AM DJ Kenneth A said

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haha whoops

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:48AM Flakk said

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I'm having difficulty believing that the overwhelmingly unwieldy controls in "Too Human" was due to inadequacies in the Unreal engine.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:04PM Quayle said

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@Flakk

Did you not read what it was about?

Its about Epic misleading SK into the license they signed. Not how crappy of a game Too Human was.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 1:26PM Flakk said

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@Quayle

Fine. As initially written, perhaps my statement seems a bit of a logical stretch.

In bringing suit, Silicon Knights seems to be stipulating that its game could have been better if Epic had met its contractual obligations. I maintain that even if Epic had done, dubious design decisions outside of the scope of the game engine would still have plagued "Too Human", hurting both its reviews and its sales.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that companies sometimes use litigation as a method of deflecting attention away from the lackluster performance of its products. Even so, it could very well be that Silicon Knights have a valid complaint. If this is the case, I truly hope they prevail when they get their day in court.

Furthermore, I would be delighted to change my mind if someone can credibly explain to me how the alleged inadequacies of the game engine forced Silicon Knights into the unenviable position of having to develop such an unpleasant control scheme for their game.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:31PM OnToGloryReturns said

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@Flakk

From what I recall - and I have not sourced this yet but am pretty certain - SK was allegedly forced to drop using the Unreal engine entirely and used another middleware engine or had to develop a proprietary engine for the game; which would be a significant setback in development, probably affecting overall quality when they eventually had to get a product out within a certain timeframe
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 3:12PM Flakk said

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@OnToGloryReturns

Fair enough. I'll do some research.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:51AM EthanBunny said

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Big up to you, Silicon Knights!
I loves Too Human and I want to see more.

Also, Epic needs a kick in the nuts.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:51AM DV8ing1 said

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This is really too bad. Forever will my opinion on Silicon Knights be marred by this. Too Human was not a terrible game, just a flawed one with some decent potential. Dyack is not making any fans by sounding like a whining brat even if he has premise. That being said, I can almost guarantee that EPIC games were doing exactly what Dyack and Disney are saying. Whether that shady and unethical treatment is "illegal" only the contracts and courts can say.

I hope for the best for SK, because us as gamers always win when more smaller devs stay in the scene. Game on fellow stiq'ers!

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:52AM bargaingamer said

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Wow seriously when the game industry become about lawsuit ....Also too human was an average game that was seriously over hype silicon need to focus on making a new game instead of blaming other studio for their problems.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:52AM ddrussianinja said

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Well maybe Epic was trying to get you guys to give up on Too Human so you could get your asses in gear and start making that Eternal Darkness sequel, dammit!

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:53AM (Unverified) said

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They should be suing Microsoft for putting up the demo. :)

I played the demo and passed on the game.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:36PM Knight Marquise said

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@(Unverified)

Really? I played the demo and purchased the game. Was an excellent crawler with lots of loot.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 11:55AM Squalls Lionheart said

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i used to like silicon knights eternal darkness is one of my favorate games ever

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:01PM Shinchi said

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So 'Too Human' was a shitty game, yeh. BUT to be fair, if what Silicon Knights is saying is true Epic need to man up on it. If you pay for a game engine which promises certain features to you (and you're paying a lot) and those features arn't there because the company is too busy working on it's own game; then they need to refund them back something.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:01PM Billlop said

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Whether or not Too Human was a good game has no place here. This isnt anything to do with Too Human. This is to do with epic purposfully witholding both support and information on the UE3 and hindering other developers.

Even if Too Human was the greatest game ever created it wouldnt change the fact that Epic still witheld the engine and slowed down other developers just so they could work on Gears faster.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 2:08PM Guibs said

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@Billlop

Looks like you and @shinchi are the only one who actually gets it. If SK's claims are true, Epic is the blame, not the other way around. A judge believe there is enough evidence to prove Sk's claim so there as to be something up here.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:02PM Rawrnosaurous said

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"... in order to fund the development costs of its own games and delay the work of SK and other competing licensees on their video games."

You know I don't think Epic really needed to delay any disney or Silicon Knights games in fear that they would out perform Gears.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:14PM KillaPat said

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My lease favorite engine that everyone uses.

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:14PM KillaPat said

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@KillaPat
least*
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:25PM VeeDeeVee said

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@KillaPat
Tell me about it. It's not as snappy as Source, but it can look very nice. I just wish they work on reducing the input lag.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 3:50PM KillaPat said

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@VeeDeeVee

I guess people really like the engine. Sorry if me not liking it has upset people. Perhaps it is that a lot of third parties do not use it correctly and create very empty and flat looking environments.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:17PM Wolfpac05 said

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I kinda liked Too Human although it was WAY too short. I'm pleased to see that they take their games seriously and maybe we'll get another(hopefully longer) Too Human sequel. :D

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:17PM lazurus said

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Too Human may not be a great game but it's greatness may have suffered precisely due to this Engine issue. Critical consensus all agreed that this game had a lot of potential, but failed mainly due to small game play issues such as camera angles or sucky controls. Now imagine the people working on the game had to constantly contact Epic for support on the engine, with an inadequate support division, the progress of Too Human's development is partially at the mercy of Epic. If the game development took too long, then it will be rushed out as a half baked product, which will obviously lead to bunch of issues. So take this with a pinch of salt and think that maybe Too Human wasn't a great game because they didn't have the time needed to fine tune it?

Posted: Mar 31st 2011 12:22PM PersonOfSorts said

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I though TH was fun...

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