Valve is deeply skeptical of any proposed "scorecard" attempting to depict digital game sales, according to biz dev director Jason Holtman, who manages Steam, the company's lucrative online distribution platform for PC and Mac. "If you look back at the way retail charts have been made, they have been proven to be telling an inaccurate story," Holtman told MCV. "They apparently had shown how the PC format was dying when it was actually thriving."
Market research firms in the business of tallying such consumer-spending, like NPD and Chart-Track, have begun to acknowledge the gross inadequacy of analyzing physical media sales alone, especially on the PC platform. Last summer, NPD raised a bright red flag when it reported on 2009 findings that physical and digital PC game-related sales were reaching parity. A few months later, the firm announced it was close to refining its reports to include digital sales. Easier said than done.
Some estimates suggest that more than half of all PC digital game sales are made through Steam, so clearly any outfit hoping to even begin to chart such data needs Valve on board. Seemingly shunning those requests, and those from publishers and developers, Holtman said that charting game sales is "less useful in the digital space."
"The idea of a chart is old," he added. "It came from people trying to aggregate disaggregated information." In the digital space, especially, sales are spread across a vast number of disassociated retailers. Perhaps then, Valve's skepticism stems from the seeming impossibility of compiling an accurate, total figure -- or maybe, as Holtman implied, Valve just sees such a figure as an antiquated measuring stick. And really, who's business is it to know how many copies of a game have been sold?
Holtman insisted that Steam's "rapid and perfected information" about sales is only relevant to its partners on a per-game basis. "The point is, it's not super important for a publisher or developer to know how well everyone is doing. What's important to know is exactly how your game is doing -- why it's climbing and why it's falling; your daily sales; your daily swing; your rewards for online campaign number three. That's what we provide."
Reader Comments (46)
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:03PM WhiteShield said
I can honestly say that I have spent more money on Steam than I'd like to admit, especially since the Christmas sale on. Granted its all been on sale, but Steam is seriously just a vacuum for my money, especially with their insane sales
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:33PM Hunter141072 said
@WhiteShield
I don´t agree with this, if steam would let know how many copies are sold of a game then the famous "pc is dying" battle will come to an end, and companies would have less excuses for not giving their support for the p.c. Many companies just say that their game was pirated 23,567 times because that´s what they saw on a torrent site. That´s crap, real numbers would show when a game is a real success, instead of just guessing if the game sold or not. Also steam HAS to report the number of copies they sell to the publisher just like they said, so i don´t see why they said that charts are not really useful, if somebody knows exactly how many copies were sold that´s steam.
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I don´t agree with this, if steam would let know how many copies are sold of a game then the famous "pc is dying" battle will come to an end, and companies would have less excuses for not giving their support for the p.c. Many companies just say that their game was pirated 23,567 times because that´s what they saw on a torrent site. That´s crap, real numbers would show when a game is a real success, instead of just guessing if the game sold or not. Also steam HAS to report the number of copies they sell to the publisher just like they said, so i don´t see why they said that charts are not really useful, if somebody knows exactly how many copies were sold that´s steam.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:45PM Shockwave said
@Hunter141072
Um, he never said anything about releasing sales charts, so why did you not agree to a point he never made. All he was saying was that he spent a lot of money on Steam. That is nothing more than him saying he, like many of myself included, often spend more than we intend to because of the great sales, great games, great setup to the store, and great support.
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Um, he never said anything about releasing sales charts, so why did you not agree to a point he never made. All he was saying was that he spent a lot of money on Steam. That is nothing more than him saying he, like many of myself included, often spend more than we intend to because of the great sales, great games, great setup to the store, and great support.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 11:43AM Hunter141072 said
@Shockwave
I was talking about what VALVE said, i wasn´t talking about what white shield said, but i guess sometimes people simple don´t pay attention to the full text... :D
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I was talking about what VALVE said, i wasn´t talking about what white shield said, but i guess sometimes people simple don´t pay attention to the full text... :D
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:10PM Marshillboy said
(Insert inevitable Gabe Newell fat joke here)
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:57PM Fakeassname said
@Marshillboy
I tried to make one once, but he ate it.
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I tried to make one once, but he ate it.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:13PM (Unverified) said
Why exactly wouldn't a publisher or developer want to know the status of a platform that are considering developing / selling games for or how their games are selling in comparison to their director competiton? That just struck me as something odd to say.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 11:09PM Rockhurst said
@(Unverified)
I agree, extremely odd. Especially the statement that those kinds of reports are only valuable when there are many spread-out retailers. So, suddenly if there's one game in town then no one should get the data? Very monopolistic behavior. I've worked on projects before where those kinds of industry metrics would've been invaluable. Just seems like a d$%& move to not even sell that data to those who need it.
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I agree, extremely odd. Especially the statement that those kinds of reports are only valuable when there are many spread-out retailers. So, suddenly if there's one game in town then no one should get the data? Very monopolistic behavior. I've worked on projects before where those kinds of industry metrics would've been invaluable. Just seems like a d$%& move to not even sell that data to those who need it.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 3:39AM wcarnation said
@(Unverified) They get the information. What the quote in the article is saying is "Why does it matter to anyone else?"
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Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 1:16PM randomyeti said
@(Unverified)
You can get information about your own games, what Valve is saying is if a publisher wants to tell other publishers about their sales they can, but valve isn't in the business of selling other developers details.
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You can get information about your own games, what Valve is saying is if a publisher wants to tell other publishers about their sales they can, but valve isn't in the business of selling other developers details.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:14PM Mr Hett said
What Valve really wants to say:
"Get out my business, my biznass
Stay the f*ck up out my biznass,
'Cause these people all up in my sh*t and it's my business, my biznass"
"Get out my business, my biznass
Stay the f*ck up out my biznass,
'Cause these people all up in my sh*t and it's my business, my biznass"
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:20PM Johnnynumber5 is powered by cell said
"They apparently had shown how the PC format was dying when it was actually thriving."
Assuming everyone in the PC vs Console war hasn't retired to thier basement for the night this should make for interesting conversation. I expect nothing less than a civilized debate between esteemed colleagues. Yes ... Indeed (strokes mustache, lights cigar)
All kidding aside I do think the demise of PC gaming has been overstated. Maybe it's just par for the course for companies to blame a dying platform, and an epidemic of software piracy for bad sales. In reality maybe it was just a poor port that wasn't optimized for the hardware.
I've come around on the issue. I also don't see myself as such an extremist anymore. Perhaps the real truth is somewhere in between the two polarizing perspectives.
/thinking out loud
Assuming everyone in the PC vs Console war hasn't retired to thier basement for the night this should make for interesting conversation. I expect nothing less than a civilized debate between esteemed colleagues. Yes ... Indeed (strokes mustache, lights cigar)
All kidding aside I do think the demise of PC gaming has been overstated. Maybe it's just par for the course for companies to blame a dying platform, and an epidemic of software piracy for bad sales. In reality maybe it was just a poor port that wasn't optimized for the hardware.
I've come around on the issue. I also don't see myself as such an extremist anymore. Perhaps the real truth is somewhere in between the two polarizing perspectives.
/thinking out loud
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:39PM Uniform solidState Messenger said
@Johnnynumber5 is powered by cell
This is exactly the sort of musing I find immediately useful in people's posts. Thank you for your thoughts.
Personally, I wonder if Valve has a good idea: What purpose does it serve to actually have this information? In my opinion, it would do more harm than good to sell this information out publicly.
If you picture a world where Valve made this info freely available (or worse, sold it), then you'd have a really bizarre, twisted idea of what video games are and how they sell. Here's what I mean:
1) Valve gives out sales figures.
2) Companies begin compiling and analyzing in detail this sales data.
3) They see how some games sell more than others, and start comparing these individual games and other similar aggregate data reports, like Metacritic.
4) They begin making connections between bulleted lists of features, review scores, and sales reports.
5) Suddenly, UP TO 4 FRIENDS CAN JOIN IN TAKING THE FIGHT TO THE ENEMY; EXHILARATING, FAST PACED COMBAT; and STUNNING GRAPHICS! become not just the hallmarks of the "best selling games," but rather requirements for any game to sell, period.
6) Games like Portal become impossible to sell in a market that has ultra-limited expectations of what a game is and what it could be.
See the progression there? We're already seeing this to a large degree if you read the meta-conversation around Metacritic.
Screw analysts.
Reply
This is exactly the sort of musing I find immediately useful in people's posts. Thank you for your thoughts.
Personally, I wonder if Valve has a good idea: What purpose does it serve to actually have this information? In my opinion, it would do more harm than good to sell this information out publicly.
If you picture a world where Valve made this info freely available (or worse, sold it), then you'd have a really bizarre, twisted idea of what video games are and how they sell. Here's what I mean:
1) Valve gives out sales figures.
2) Companies begin compiling and analyzing in detail this sales data.
3) They see how some games sell more than others, and start comparing these individual games and other similar aggregate data reports, like Metacritic.
4) They begin making connections between bulleted lists of features, review scores, and sales reports.
5) Suddenly, UP TO 4 FRIENDS CAN JOIN IN TAKING THE FIGHT TO THE ENEMY; EXHILARATING, FAST PACED COMBAT; and STUNNING GRAPHICS! become not just the hallmarks of the "best selling games," but rather requirements for any game to sell, period.
6) Games like Portal become impossible to sell in a market that has ultra-limited expectations of what a game is and what it could be.
See the progression there? We're already seeing this to a large degree if you read the meta-conversation around Metacritic.
Screw analysts.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:52PM Shockwave said
@Johnnynumber5 is powered by cell
I tell ya, they have to be right to some extent about the PC thriving in reality, because they're one of the few companies out there who saw the potential for PC sales and profited big time off of it. Not just with their own software, but with the Steam store.
Steam and it's success, in my opinion, is proof enough alone that PC game sales are far from suffering. Whenever I hear people say PC game sales are horrible and that the platform is dead, I put it in the same "trash bin" as other stupid statements like "All Xbox has is Halo, and Halo sucks", or "Playstation's PSN store sucks because Sony doesn't put demos for the games in the store (like it's their responsibility...)", etc. etc...
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I tell ya, they have to be right to some extent about the PC thriving in reality, because they're one of the few companies out there who saw the potential for PC sales and profited big time off of it. Not just with their own software, but with the Steam store.
Steam and it's success, in my opinion, is proof enough alone that PC game sales are far from suffering. Whenever I hear people say PC game sales are horrible and that the platform is dead, I put it in the same "trash bin" as other stupid statements like "All Xbox has is Halo, and Halo sucks", or "Playstation's PSN store sucks because Sony doesn't put demos for the games in the store (like it's their responsibility...)", etc. etc...
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:20PM Drakkenfyre said
No can say they are trying to hide low sales. Shitloads of games get sold every day, and when they have a sale, I can see that number going thru the roof.
TF2 for $2.50? A seminew game for $10? Probably sell millions a day.
TF2 for $2.50? A seminew game for $10? Probably sell millions a day.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:30PM Crayola Q Pants ESQ said
Of course, it means that any research done on the industry of PC gaming will be either be inaccurate or incomplete without these figures. Research which could influence other decisions related to the realm of PC.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:47PM Special Agent Steve said
@Crayola Q Pants ESQ
Sagans... not millions.
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Sagans... not millions.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:32PM Cobra4455 said
Probably because Portal 2 did awful on it. Who would want to buy from steam when you could have gotten the pc version free if you purchased the ps3 version from amazon used the pc code and then immediately traded it back in.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:49PM Its The Rocketeer said
@Cobra4455
No one because that's not how it works?
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No one because that's not how it works?
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:19PM DV8ing1 said
@Cobra4455
Because I'm a pc gamer with a ps3 that I rarely if ever boot up seeing as my pc plays blurays just fine? I like to support my platform to show that we aren't all pirates that don't care about the industry. 200+ games on steam and probably paid 1/4 of what I would have paid on the consoles.
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Because I'm a pc gamer with a ps3 that I rarely if ever boot up seeing as my pc plays blurays just fine? I like to support my platform to show that we aren't all pirates that don't care about the industry. 200+ games on steam and probably paid 1/4 of what I would have paid on the consoles.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:16PM Drakkenfyre said
Because you can't get it free unless you own a PS3, register or setup a Steam account thru it, then use the code on that account?
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Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 7:26AM context said
@Cobra4455
because I ordered the ps3 version and also participated in the potato fools day ARG. I went on the collect all potatoes which gave me a free copy of portal 2 and still time left to cancel my order for the ps3 version which in total saved me 60 euros.
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because I ordered the ps3 version and also participated in the potato fools day ARG. I went on the collect all potatoes which gave me a free copy of portal 2 and still time left to cancel my order for the ps3 version which in total saved me 60 euros.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 11:17PM ch3burashka said
You say that the charts were showing that the PC market was dying, but that's because Steam is taking all of those sales! The charts look so bad because you won't give them the info! And yes, charts are there to aggregate information, but you've aggregated your half, share it with the rest of the group! And saying, "Charts are old" is not a great defense, that just makes withholding information that much more suspicious. Granted, they're a company and they can do whatever the hell the want, but at the very least tell the truth.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 8:54PM R Planteer said
As much as I like Steam, I have to disagree with them on this. I'd love to know how well games were selling online vs in retail stores, and I can think of a lot of groups of people that would like it as well.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:18PM Lerkero said
Seems like an odd statement coming from Valve. They are disappointed that the PC market has been portrayed as declining so they won't release sales numbers because it only matters to the individual publishers?
If you want to prove the opposite wouldn't it be MORE beneficial to release some numbers? Valve is still a private company so they are free to do what they want, but the things coming from Valve lately have been very suspicious
If you want to prove the opposite wouldn't it be MORE beneficial to release some numbers? Valve is still a private company so they are free to do what they want, but the things coming from Valve lately have been very suspicious
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 11:16PM scratchh said
"this information is way too valuable to give or sell for less than dump trucks of money, but we dont want to say so"
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:32PM GordoJones88 said
This is interesting. It seems like Valve has something it doesn't want public. Which might mean if the public knew, there would be some sort of debate about something they don't want to discuss. A guess would be that some games don't sell well, until they put it on sale, which then does well. I dunno.
Kind of like I stopped buying Xbox Live Arcade games on release because I know they will go on sale in a few months.
Kind of like I stopped buying Xbox Live Arcade games on release because I know they will go on sale in a few months.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 9:46PM GordoJones88 said
I suppose Valve stands to lose something if this data was public.
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Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:06PM Fakeassname said
@GordoJones88
knowledge is power, Valve basically controls the market so they pretty much know everything and thus have got all the power.
more than anything Valve probably doesn't want people seeing how their product is fairing and reacting with price drops to competitors sale rates.
as it is now things are pretty much up to Valve for when they go on sale because otherwise your just taking a shot in the dark as to what is going on with other peoples products.
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knowledge is power, Valve basically controls the market so they pretty much know everything and thus have got all the power.
more than anything Valve probably doesn't want people seeing how their product is fairing and reacting with price drops to competitors sale rates.
as it is now things are pretty much up to Valve for when they go on sale because otherwise your just taking a shot in the dark as to what is going on with other peoples products.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:11PM JDBar said
Maybe don't want to let people know how many copies are sold in relation to the sales. Otherwise, every other distributor out there would see the strength in sales and then try and out-sale Steam.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 10:41PM xiLeShadow said
Steam still reports total revenue just not individual sales.
A publisher and/or developer can easily see the trend of unit sales by using total revenue.
A publisher and/or developer can easily see the trend of unit sales by using total revenue.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 11:05PM PointlessPuppies said
I think part of the reason why Valve doesn't publish numbers is because they'd be overstepping their bounds a bit. Why talk about sales figures of their entire platform when the vast majority of the games on said platform aren't even there? If I were a business and if I didn't release the sales figures of my games myself, I'd be pretty pissed of Valve "conveniently" did that for me.
...or, it could just be that Valve is a private business and is in no way obligated to provide sales for anything at all. I say if publishers want their sales to be known let them.
...or, it could just be that Valve is a private business and is in no way obligated to provide sales for anything at all. I say if publishers want their sales to be known let them.
Posted: Apr 21st 2011 11:41PM RequiemDogma said
I would rather they fix Portal 2 (seems to not work for a lot of people running a 64bit Win7) than report profits, lawl.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 2:26AM CaramelZappa said
@RequiemDogma
Yeah, I have 64-bit 7 and I had no problems at all. I know quite a few people who also have the game and run on 64-bit and no one I know has said anything except that the game is awesome.
Of course, can't speak for everyone, but I also seen any posts on game blogs or other sites about said issue.
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Yeah, I have 64-bit 7 and I had no problems at all. I know quite a few people who also have the game and run on 64-bit and no one I know has said anything except that the game is awesome.
Of course, can't speak for everyone, but I also seen any posts on game blogs or other sites about said issue.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 4:11PM RequiemDogma said
@CaramelZappa
Fair enough, It was mentioned in a lot of threads on the steam forums, and was a large enough issue to warrent it's own sticky. The original error has since been replaced with a CtD that leaves no error message, regardless of the ammount of affected people, we still can't play the game.
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Fair enough, It was mentioned in a lot of threads on the steam forums, and was a large enough issue to warrent it's own sticky. The original error has since been replaced with a CtD that leaves no error message, regardless of the ammount of affected people, we still can't play the game.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 2:34AM CaramelZappa said
@kgoo867
You've always been such a Valve hater. (Attmitedly, I'm a bit of a fanboy. But still:)
If steam sales were really "failing", publishers would know this and pull out of steam as quickly as possible. But most major multiplatorm games are still made for PC, and every PC game from any major publisher makes it to steam. It's up to EA or Activision or whoever to post their numbers if they want to. Valve shouldn't have to speak for those companies.
To think that the biggest name in PC gaming is failing, a company that gets profit not only from their own AAA titles, but from every popular big name or indie game, is completely ridiculous. Why would you think Gabe is "covering his own ass", aside from your own personal contempt with the company? They're clearly doing very, very well. Arguing otherwise without providing any evidence is silly.
Again, Valve doesn't have to share sales numbers with the public, but they do with publishers. And if the publishers weren't seeing significant profit from steam, they wouldn't publish on steam. If you have an argument against this I'd love to hear it.
You've always been such a Valve hater. (Attmitedly, I'm a bit of a fanboy. But still:)
If steam sales were really "failing", publishers would know this and pull out of steam as quickly as possible. But most major multiplatorm games are still made for PC, and every PC game from any major publisher makes it to steam. It's up to EA or Activision or whoever to post their numbers if they want to. Valve shouldn't have to speak for those companies.
To think that the biggest name in PC gaming is failing, a company that gets profit not only from their own AAA titles, but from every popular big name or indie game, is completely ridiculous. Why would you think Gabe is "covering his own ass", aside from your own personal contempt with the company? They're clearly doing very, very well. Arguing otherwise without providing any evidence is silly.
Again, Valve doesn't have to share sales numbers with the public, but they do with publishers. And if the publishers weren't seeing significant profit from steam, they wouldn't publish on steam. If you have an argument against this I'd love to hear it.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 2:49AM IndigoHawk said
Valve currently gains nothing by being transparent. Valve is probably being honest that sales charts don't mean much, as its Steam marketing drives demand for games through advertisements, tie-ins, and discounts. It's counterproductive for Valve to publish charts that show that games are currently unpopular, and then turn around and try to get people to buy "loser" games.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 4:21AM The Only Girl said
@kgoo867
I doubt Portal 2 is "failing", though...
I doubt Portal 2 is "failing", though...
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 6:29AM rullers said
And this is why there are no leaderboards in Valve games.
Posted: Apr 22nd 2011 12:49PM Chichok said
There's no doubt in my mind that Portal 2 sold incredibly well. Also the gamer technically doesn't care how well a company is doing, they just want great games. So they gain nothing by reporting profit to it's audience.
Now the shareholders are a different story. But Valve can easily hold a shareholder meeting and divulge the information there.
Now the shareholders are a different story. But Valve can easily hold a shareholder meeting and divulge the information there.
Posted: Apr 23rd 2011 9:15AM cyruss said
"The point is, it's not super important for a publisher or developer to know how well everyone is doing. What's important to know is exactly how your game is doing"
Yeh ok Valve, I am really really sure you don't look at this data yourself, with regards to your own games, and see how competitors are doing... BS if you say otherwise.
Of course this data is valuable for publishers/developers - so they can see trends as to what players are interested in playing, what they don't like, which genres have the bigger market on PC.. and what the favoured price point is
this is a really stupid argument by Valve. I really wish Valve and Steam were separate companies, with Steam being a bit more public - I love Valve and their games, but they come across as tools sometimes when they talk.
Yeh ok Valve, I am really really sure you don't look at this data yourself, with regards to your own games, and see how competitors are doing... BS if you say otherwise.
Of course this data is valuable for publishers/developers - so they can see trends as to what players are interested in playing, what they don't like, which genres have the bigger market on PC.. and what the favoured price point is
this is a really stupid argument by Valve. I really wish Valve and Steam were separate companies, with Steam being a bit more public - I love Valve and their games, but they come across as tools sometimes when they talk.
Posted: Apr 23rd 2011 7:28PM StBlackjack said
I could be confused, but Mr. Holtman talks about how charts back in the day used to show that PC gaming was "dying." I get that this was back then and not now, but then he turns around and says that they won't release the numbers of sales over Steam? It seems to me that if Steam is such a big part of PC sales, if they included those numbers, maybe the charts wouldn't show that PC gaming is "dying" (which I find to be a ludicrous idea to begin with.)
Again, I could just be confused, but that doesn't seem to make a lick of sense to me.
Again, I could just be confused, but that doesn't seem to make a lick of sense to me.
Posted: May 9th 2011 10:24AM baccilus said
With digital distribution, it doesn't matter how many individual games have been sold. What really matters is the total money that has been earned. A game which costs $60 might earn twice as much money when it is on sale on steam.








