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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:26PM strang221 said

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Here's a great hidden gem: Mask of the Betrayer, the NWN2 expansion.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:08PM laggerific said

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@strang221

Yeah, NWN2 has been one of the best RPGs of the recent past...if we could get it combined with the TB mechanics of Temple of Elemental Evil, I think we would be close to having the ultimate CRPG experience.

I also want to speak out for Storm of Zehir. It is a party based game (of which there are so few these days, sadly) and you can make at least 4 PCs or just rely on NPCs, I believe. What I really liked about Zehir is that for all the streamlining of RPGs, they did it the best by keeping the depth of the NWN2 and D&D world, but making it easier to use. If people in your party have a skill based response in a conversation, you can select that, regardless of who initiated the discussion. The overworld map utilizes all the skills you would expect to see there, like survival and spot and hide and such...really slick.

That said, I just rolled up a character in MotB last weekend...a Bard, Rogue, Shadowdancer, and ultimately and Arcane Trickster. Looking forward to digging into this with my roommate soon.

But seriously, if there had been more content created for Zehir or ToEE, I would have little complaint with the state of CRPGs.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:18PM strang221 said

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@laggerific

Here's a tip for your MotB playthrough: be evil.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:31PM Slight of Ham said

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Ahh Arcade Gannon, I traded your sorry ass over to Caesar to save me a trip through the nightmare that is Vault 34....Best deal I ever made.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:31PM PR0F3TA said

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"WRPG's" have become my favorite type of genere this gen by far. Its the storytelling with the mix of good action that pulls me in. Fallout and Skyrim could easily be the most hours spent on a game since the days of FF7. Also, i would not call Mass Effect an RPG per say, just like i don't really think that Borderlands is very RPGish, they just add RPG elements into the game. Deus Ex, now thats an RPG.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:07PM Angel Rage said

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@PR0F3TA Not that I disagree, but I'm curious to learn what makes Deus Ex an RPG in your mind and not Mass Effect. Again, not disagreeing, just interested in understanding where you draw that line.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 4:33PM dragonfliet said

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@PR0F3TA Wait, you're going to say ME isn't an RPG but DX is? While DX is great in that you can choose to be nonlethal, they are both combat focused, allowing for different playstyles (and DX is definitely deeper in this respect), but ultimately coming down to get past x number of people to get to y baddy. Ultimately, however, ME revolves around the interactive storytelling, and DX, while it is less so about involving the character with other characters, does much the same. I think that each of the series has their own strengths and weaknesses, but they are treading largely the same ground (in very different ways). To say that one is a pinnacle and one is barely even in the same game sounds ridiculous.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:19PM Pure Black World Tendency said

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The only REAL RPGs are the pen & paper, character sheet, dungeon master, super-nerdy ones. Video/PC "RPG" games are action games with varying complexities of attributes and simple morale systems.

The difference between ME2 and Deus Ex in this case, is minimal.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 1:28AM This Little Man Says His Name Is said

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@Pure Black World Tendency

What about KOTOR then? It's entirely based around D20 rules with every action you perform being controlled by invisible dice roles.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:32PM liquidsoap89 said

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Interesting... I wasn't quite sold on the idea of this being a weekly column at first, but those last 2 paragraphs sold me! I look forward to reading more of these. And if this is what Luddy has in mind for a new Joystiq, than I approve.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:32PM ArtificeDrake formerly known as said

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Great idea for an article series! Looking forward to reading as I look forward the "JRPG" articles.

Which gives me an idea: Square Enix should totally team up with Bethesda or Blizzard or another great Western RPG maker to make a bad ass Western JRPG!!
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:47PM (Unverified) said

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@ArtificeDrake formerly known as -

Another kind of "marginal" game I'm interested in exploring are the games that don't quite fit between "Western" and "Japanese". A couple examples: The old Shadowrun games on the SNES/Genesis, which I believe were Australian, released at a time when only Japanese RPGs got any attention on console.

Also, around the turn of the millennium, we got two PC RPGs which were deliberate homages to JRPGs: Anachronox and Septerra Core, the latter of which is sitting in my GOG library waiting to be tested.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:48PM ballistic90 said

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@ArtificeDrake formerly known as

Oh, that has kinda already happened. Just pick up Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Square Enix was the publisher. They discovered the secret to making things great: Get some Canadians to do it, lol.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 1:29AM This Little Man Says His Name Is said

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@ballistic90

Squeenix didn't actually work on Deus Ex though, they simply own the studio who did so they published it.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:32PM strang221 said

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Also, as far as a debate goes: the role of player vs. character skill, to what extent that balance defines an RPG, and why modern "RPGs" have moved almost entirely into the realm of player skill.

(I think those quotation marks tell you where I stand on the issue).
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:02PM baby sea tuna said

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@strang221

Yeah, you're saying you've got no skills.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 4:13PM DustbinK said

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@strang221 The Witcher 2 is... social skills?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 12:20AM D4rk 0p3rative said

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@strang221
Wait, are you saying it's bad if an RPG chooses to reward a player's skills? Or do you want some form of hybrid where both player and character skills coalesce into a thing of beauty. Personally, I don't mind if the game rewards player skills as long as it does not disregard the need of my character's in-game skills.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:34PM DustbinK said

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tl;dr Europe is awesome American RPGs suck.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:48PM Colin said

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@DustbinK

Uh, what? Did you even read the article? They didn't even mention a single European RPG.

Oh wait, the Witcher. But that's it.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:53PM DustbinK said

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@Colin Haha, I meant it tongue in cheek. It's kind of sad that they didn't talk about STALKER, Risen, or The Witcher because that's all part of "western" development as well. These companies do things quite differently from their American counterparts and really need more credit for trying out new ideas in a stale genre.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:03PM (Unverified) said

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@DustbinK - I'm a little behind on many recent games, which include most of those mentioned. Like I said, going to be writing on The Witcher very soon, and I have STALKER in the queue (although this is the first time I've seen anyone consider it an RPG, so, that'll bump it up a little).
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:13PM Traptz said

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@DustbinK

STALE GENRE? ROFL

Do yourself a favor and read the articles before you post from now on..

Hell you don't even have to read the article to know that RPG's are the most popular genre in gaming and have been for a long time...
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:26PM DustbinK said

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@Traptz So you just laugh when I call it stale without pointing out any sort of innovation, then proceed to point out that RPGs are the best selling genre? Am I being trolled? First Person Shooters are the best selling games. Just a quick article: http://popwatch.ew.com/2011/12/16/best-of-2011-top-selling-video-games/ 3/10 were FPS. One was a TPS. And one of those FPS was released the year prior which shows that people continue to buy them throughout the year. More importantly to combat your point: Only one was a RPG.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:52PM ballistic90 said

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@DustbinK

Stop lumping Bioware into American game companies. Canadian RPGs have different styles to them too.

Seriously though, "Western RPG" is more determinative of the game style than necessarily where it was made. I determine western RPGs to be the ones where it pulls back from a linear story and allows more freedom and more details put into the world than in JRPGs.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:58PM DustbinK said

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@ballistic90 Sorry, North American RPGs. Either way, my point stands, Europe was overlooked when they are doing a lot for the genre.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:37PM Mujokan said

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The arguments over whether Mass Effect 2 or Skyrim should be called RPGs are some of the most tedious on the internet... Saying they are not RPGs, or not "true RPGs" (the "no true Scotsman" move), is just a way of insulting a game you don't like if you ask me. Obviously these games fall under the standard definition of the term that's been around for years.

It is much more productive to discuss which systems you like and which you don't rather than try to convince people to change their definition of what RPG means.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:09PM mrhumble1 said

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@Mujokan

Mass Effect 2 was NOT an RPG. The amount of character customization was pathetic, and managing items like equipment and weapons were extremely basic. The game clearly focused on being a shooter first with some dialogue trees thrown in for good measure. I never felt like I was playing an RPG throughout my entire playthrough.

Just because a game lets you add points to a few basic skills doesn't make it an RPG.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:15PM baby sea tuna said

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@mrhumble1

Way to not comprehend anything he just wrote.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:42PM DustbinK said

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@Mujokan I don't think anyone can argue that Skyrim isn't a RPG, but you can very easily make the case that ME2 was a move more towards "action" in the "action-rpg" category. I think the dialogue and whatnot is certainly enough to keep it more RPG than some third person shooter... but even Bioware recognizes that there needs to be some balance between all of its fans. Which is why in ME3 there's an action-forward mode, a story forward mode, and one that's both (that'll play like ME1 and 2.)
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 4:19PM Mujokan said

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@DustbinK "I don't think anyone can argue that Skyrim isn't a RPG"

Unfortunately there are regularly 10 page arguments on this topic at the official Skyrim forum :/
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:03PM mrhumble1 said

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@baby sea tuna

He said "Obviously these games fall under the standard definition..." and I simply disagree. I don't think Mass Effect 2 was an RPG at all.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:37PM flalex05 said

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I always hate it when people say Obsidian games are notorious for bugs. I'm not denying that, but it implies Bethesda's games aren't full of them too.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:28PM Mmmmz said

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@flalex05
I think the real implication is that Obsidian games often result and bugs AND sacrificed quality and content. Which is especially damning when they mainly build off others' work. (I don't care for deadline excuses, either. Everyone has them and if you're getting paid you deal with it or don't take on the project)

Also, Bethesda actually works out most bugs whereas with Obsidian it seems to have to do more with how much people are complaining before they are bothered to do anything.

New Vegas helped show that Obsidian does have competence but it also showed that they still have a bit to go before they deserve any sustained respect.

Basically, when you create games like Oblivion and Skyrim people are more forgiving because you know, they created it from the ground up. Obsidian just builds off of things most of the time and there's less excuses for that unless it was bugged from the adopted code.

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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 4:17PM DustbinK said

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@Mmmmz You don't think this is an issue of funding, support from the publisher, and publisher demands? The fact of the matter is that they receive far less QA than a game made by Bethesda themselves and are put on much more strict timelines. If anything, New Vegas showed that they can make the same game BETTER (especially in regards to writing), but they lack in the QA department. The same can be applied to KOTOR 2. With the complete pack added onto it, many people consider it superior to KOTOR.

People are far too hard on Obsidian when they're getting the short end of the stick themselves.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 1:32AM This Little Man Says His Name Is said

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@flalex05

Oblivions games they made for Bioware were also full of bugs.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:49PM Relysis said

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My problem with the current state of WRPGs is the fact that technology hasn't advanced to the point that it makes what they try to do believable. The 'morality' system implemented in these bethesda and bioware games feels like little more than a series of tedious IF...THEN statements to me. Skyrim may do a slightly better job of reacting to your actual actions, but you can still feel triggers being pressed after every action or dialogue choice you make.

The choices you make may be grey contextually, but the output is always black/white. I'm always thinking about this so the games just don't draw me in, no matter how good the story. This is why a game like Dark Souls is the pinnacle of current WRPG-style (made by the Japanese.. interesting) storytelling to me. There are no dialogue trees, and the consequences to your actions may never be apparent to you. There is still a morality butterfly effect in place, but you can't simply reload a save and try something different with immediate results. The world's change may never be clear through your entire playthrough.

I think bioware and bethesda's approach to storytelling is remarkable, but I will wait until AI and input technology advances to the point where it feels less like a choose your own adventure book. Kinect interaction and learning AI would truly immerse the player as they intend. Unfortunately, that tech is a long way off.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:49PM Azurist said

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You're kidding, right? Binding of Isaac is a decent game, but it hardly 'stretches the boundaries of RPGs' any differently to, say, Nethack. Randomising loot is not a revolutionary gameplay element by any means; I hope there's a note as to where BoI gets its inspiration from.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:05PM (Unverified) said

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@Azurist - If I were kidding then I wouldn't be very funny, now would I? Binding of Isaac plays more like The Legend Of Zelda than Diablo to me. Guess I'll get more into this next week.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:49PM blessrok said

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Mass Effect 2 wasn't an RPG to me, but only because it was soured by Alpha Protocol. I played it first and in comparison, Mass Effect 2 felt like a shooter w/minor weapon/character leveling w/a great story. While AP was all about leveling since it decided how you'd handle any mission or whether your aim improved and the like. I still loved ME2 though
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:00PM Arkard said

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@blessrok THIS so much. Alpha Protocol is one of the most underrated games in years. If you can look pasts it's problems, it's fantastic. Was also a bit disappointed with Mass Effect 2!
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:54PM ballistic90 said

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@Arkard

It wasn't underrated. It was several wonderful ideas dragged down by bad implementation. That's what pisses people off about it so much.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 2:58PM jph89 said

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I'm not as big a WRPG fan as I am a JRPG fan. Though I do love the past two fallout's. Played Skyrim, but it was "meh" to me. Haven't played a Diablo yet, but could try 3(only Blizzard game I really like is Starcraft). But cool article non-the less.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:00PM Tristan77 said

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If JRPG are not involved in the article i am not interested. Whether you like it or not, the Japanese invented the RPG genre and the amazing rpg games we have today, western or Japanese are because of the first japanese rpg games that started it all, like Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:03PM blessrok said

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@Tristan77 Ummmm....what? RPGs date back to pen and paper games. JRPGs are there own thing, just like WRPGs are, but they sure didn't start with a controller and monitor.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:08PM (Unverified) said

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@Tristan77 - And specifically, it was Wizardry (a 1981 game) that was wildly popular in Japan, and triggered that country's love affair with the genre.

The difference between "Japanese" and "Western" RPGs is not so big as you might think. If you want to learn more, stay a while, and listen.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:08PM baby sea tuna said

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@blessrok

More importantly than that, there's already a series about JRPGs on here and more importantly than *that,* JRPGs as a genre are so stagnant that even the people that make them agree that the genre as a whole needs a complete overhaul.

Or, as Owen Wilson once said "The sun may rise in the East, but it sets here in the West."
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:00PM baby sea tuna said

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Whoa, when did Rowan start writing for Joystiq? I just finished reading his Veronica Mars recap on AV Club and then came upon this. Must be my lucky day.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:08PM (Unverified) said

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@baby sea tuna - Today! And thanks, it's very nice to be considered part of someone's lucky day.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 3:10PM Stevetrop Man of Mystery said

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As a huge fan of Western RPG's I feel each one has a great take to it. I love role playing games in all their forms. However, its those classic cRPG's that I have a fondness for.

The Ultima series, Might & Magic, Fallout 1 & 2, Baldurs Gate, Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, and Stonekeep are all great cRPG's I remember playing growing up from my childhood to my teens.

While many aspects of role playing games are cliché at this point now. Hero save world, or princess, dungeons and or dragons. But there is something about that part of the game that's thrilling.

I remember creeping through dungeons in Might and Magic V: Darkside of Xeen, or The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. While not knowing all the intricacies of the games at the time and feeling nervous sitting in a dark room, creeping in a dark dungeon, something always propelled me to go farther.

That's the charm and thrill I always loved about Western Role Playing Games. I love them on all systems be it consoles, computers, or handhelds. I'm sure they'll still be amazing in the years that follow.
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