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Reader Comments (38)

Posted: Feb 16th 2012 7:40PM vidjagamer said

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Oh heck yes! I still have my boxed copy of Betrayal at Krondor! I remember drooling over Lands of Lore back in the day too. Good stuff.

Posted: Feb 16th 2012 10:13PM Kresh said

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@vidjagamer LOL! Same here.
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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 7:47PM Hords said

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Awesome games. Lands of Lore is one of my all-time favorite RPGs.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:34AM Bielzer said

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@Hords I had lands of lore - but could never get it to work.
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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 7:52PM Stevetrop Man of Mystery said

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I have always felt that Final Fantasy was a great merger of eastern and western role playing game styles. A game that had a character class choice ability. The magic mechanics were based on spelled cast per day and the spells were classed on levels. It had created a tired and true fighting style that many Final Fantasy games would use afterward.

Both types of RPGs has their common themes and differences. However, I think if you like RPGs in general you would have games on both sides of the field that you like.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 9:10AM Dragun said

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@Stevetrop Man of Mystery
The best hybrid I've played is a PC game called Septerra Core; awsome game!
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:37AM Draco said

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@Dragun

Septerra Core was a great game, but I'm not sure if I liked it because it was really the only JRPG out for the PC around the time the Playstation started pushing out the Final Fantasy games.
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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 8:05PM Wackydavo said

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It seems to me that the logic: "JRPG's and WRPG's are not different. Look here are two examples the don't follow the stereotypes" is just as false as: "JRPG's are linear WRPG's are open. Look here are two games that are exhibit this distinction."

In my experience, (limited on the JRPG front) there's a palpable stylistic divide between the two genres. Our efforts to describe these differences result in generic terminology. Of course, not all games within each sub-genre will exhibit all the same generic characteristic we use to describe them--especially when you're looking at abstract terms such a linearity/openness, active/passive, story-emphasis/gameplay-emphasis. But that doesn't mean the generic terms aren't useful means to describe a certain game. So, I wouldn't say that distinction has been overstated as heavily as this article would suggest.

TL;DR I think you're understating the differences based on a small sample-size.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:20AM Thiago123 said

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@Wackydavo

Agreed 100%. You can't write an article intent on disproving a stereotype by making the sweeping statement that said stereotype "[is] not true...What's more, it never was." (! - oh really?)

Here you give two examples based on properties that are essentially unknown RELATIVE (I remember both quie vividly) to the dominant franchises which have created the stereotypes (and for good reason), i.e., Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, Ultima, etc. I do enjoy these articles quite a bit, and thank you for writing them...it's always nice to go down memory lane...but your thesis is a bit of a stretch.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 11:48AM smidget said

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@Wackydavo

Went through the comments to see if anyone had already said what I thinking. And you did. So I'll just say that I agree and give it a +1.
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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 8:10PM McWeen said

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I LOVE the Betrayal at Krondor soundtrack. When you put the game in a cd player you could listen to it. We always used it as the background music to our D&D sessions.

Posted: Feb 16th 2012 9:52PM Saladfork said

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I don't have enough experience with JRPGs to disagree with you on a credible basis, but I will say that one could always argue that betrayal at Krondor and Lands of Lore were more the exceptions than the rule.

Posted: Feb 16th 2012 11:14PM Zolbrod said

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Seems to me you're using some pretty rare and obscure examples to prove your point, Rowan. There's always going to be an exception to every rule, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that most of the stereotypes you mentioned are indeed true for just about 95% of the time.

I can also debunk everything you said about JRPGs by pointing at Dark Souls, which is a decidedly Westernized JRPG, but there's not much point in that. Nobody ever said stereotypes are 100% true.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 12:16AM (Unverified) said

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@Zolbrod These aren't actually obscure at all. Both were quite popular in their day, triggering a few sequels. Betrayal At Krondor won several RPG of the year awards.

And you can keep going with exceptions. Tactics games like Shining Force and Tactics Ogre match up with the Gold Box series more than they do to Chrono Trigger in many respects. Wizardry's class-changing system is matched in many ways by Final Fantasy V/Tactics' as well as some of the Dragon Quest games. Might & Magic's wild science fantasy universe runs in parallel to Phantasy Star IV.

At a certain point, you have so many exceptions that the rules largely fall apart. These are two of the most important.
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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 11:22PM Acosta02 said

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Sorry, but this is false. I submit photographic evidence that Eastern and Western games will NEVER be alike, in RPGs or any other genre. They are just too different.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5597/1328221310494.jpg

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:40AM Space Cobra said

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@Acosta02

...Isn't that "Snake" from "Metal Gear"? Why is he representing Western games when he's a product of Konami? ;p
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:47AM Yuccadude said

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@Acosta02 How is Snake a typical western character if he's from a Japanese game series?
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 3:26AM chrisredfield31 said

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@Acosta02 hilarious!
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 5:23AM Draugdraugr said

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@Acosta02

Bad example, why wouldn't you pick the millions of western characters.

That being said, Solid Snake is based off of Snake Plissken, the protagonist in Escape From New York, which is a Western film, so the character was had (heavy) western influence. Still, it's not a western RPG, trbl.

We could come up with some character examples, but I think it's a good time to point out one of the real contrasts made between wrpgs and jrpgs is that with wrpgs the main character isn't necessarily defined, You at least have some influence when you get to create a character, and for many games it goes beyond just character creation. With western RPGs it's something that is more commonplace, in jrps this is a relic of the past, and the character customization never really raised to the same level.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:49AM Alexisonfire said

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@Space Cobra @Yuccadude @Draugdraugr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

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Posted: Feb 16th 2012 11:51PM maxwell97 said

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Today, the stereotypes really apply only to RPG's that slavishly copy the gameplay styles of the past. Unfortunately, I think this is more of a problem with JRPG's than the Western variety - nobody makes games like Wizardry or Might and Magic any more, while the Final Fantasy template is still going strong. Regardless, the past is the past, and games from either region will succeed when they ditch old mechanics and make use of current tech. When people played D&D in the 70's, they needed those dice rolls to simulate a world, and that carried over into the primordial ooze of electronic RPG's; in 2012, why do that when you can have a sophisticated computer-modeled world, complete with physics and real-time action? This is why Skyrim (from the West) and Dark Souls (from the East) are remaking the standards, and will help put an end to the stereotypical divide in styles. "Fight/Defend/Flee" should have died out years ago.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 12:20AM (Unverified) said

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@maxwell97 I feel like you're conflating a bunch of different things. Turn-based dice rolling is present in all RPGs, some just hide it more than others. Skyrim's got all that stuff under the hood, and it's not terribly difficult to pop it out of the hood. And it's also directly descended from Ultima Underworld, itself descended from Dungeon Master. But none of that makes it more or less comparable to Japanese-style games.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:31AM maxwell97 said

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@(Unverified) Fair enough. What I'm getting at is that the east vs. west paradigm of RPG's goes back decades, and is no longer relevant except to those who cling to the old mechanics. The market is changing out from under the stereotypes. Is Dark Souls really a "JRPG?" Is, say, Kingdoms of Amalur a "western RPG?" These terms have no meaning any more.

I disagree about turn-based dice rolling. There's a certain amount of randomness involved, but Skyrim is fundamentally different from Dungeon Master in this regard. In the old games, if I decided to shoot an arrow at somebody, there was a dice roll that said whether I hit or not, to simulate timing, leading, and whatever other factors go into shooting an arrow into somebody. In Skyrim (among other games), I actually control these factors directly in real time, and the dice roll has practically no impact on whether I hit (only on damage, because the tech isn't sophisticated enough to really simulate the physics of an arrow wound). I'm getting a bit off-topic, but it does apply; western vs. Japanese is a distinction within traditional thinking about RPG's, while the best modern RPG's are leaving those traditions behind.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:51AM Space Cobra said

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@maxwell97

I gotta side with Maxwell here.

I think we both came in when such RPGs were still being developed and things were more fluid; the Ultima series obviously influenced Final Fantasy at first, We even got "set" characters as the the series continued (Ultima 4 onwards). From these roots, Final Fantasy (and even DragonQuest) broke out of that initial graphics engine and developed/explored new things.

But IMO, so did many western games.

Again, I think there is a matter of different perspective here at looking at this. I grew up on these and you are commenting looking back on that. While that does have value, it is easy to miss some of the natural ways these things came about without taking the environment at the time into consideration. I see it many times when others comment on other things from "back then" without living through it.

I can't understate what a big impact Ultima and its siblings, like Wizardy, had on JRPGs. Heck, shortly after that, it seems like PnP DnD came to Japan and *that* also has a continuing effect on the genre there in many areas.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:55AM ballistic90 said

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@maxwell97

Well... Wizardry is actually incredibly popular in Japan. I think they had a dozen spin offs that never came to the West.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 1:40PM maxwell97 said

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@ballistic90 Huh, I didn't know that. It IS a classic. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying old-school mechanics are bad, it's still fun to play such games. I just think newer games should be expanding the scope of role-playing, and some are doing it very well - like Skyrim and DS.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 5:49PM xxxsam said

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@maxwell97
The reason they don't simulate the physics of an arrow wound isn't only that it would be difficult (doing it accurately would be, but with a bit of effort you could fake it plausibly, just like games fake lots of other things).

But if they did it 'equally' (for PCs as well as enemies) it would be boring. Hit points are unrealistic, but a lot more fun. People learnt this decades ago - there were table-top roleplaying systems that simulated combat more accurately, so that if you got hit in the arm you couldn't fight, or if you got hit in the leg you couldn't walk. Do either of those things sound like fun? Nope. Much better to say, you just lost a few hit points but you can basically keep going (until you run out).

I think there's a fundamental problem with RPGs where (usually) you start off as some kid who can barely defeat a rabbit, and end up powerful enough to defeat huge giants, sea monsters, gods, etc. They want to try making it less die-roll-y by introducing player skill into the equation (so you actually aim that arrow instead of just, oh a 17? you hit). But over the duration of a game, there's no way your actual skill would increase that much (it will increase, just not that much). So, 'levels', fancy equipment, and fudged damage it is.

Of course it's not just RPGs; other genres do this too. (For instance, in shooters when you face tougher enemies, you're generally also given weapons that do more damage.) But maybe a bit less so.

I don't actually play that many RPGs (probably three a year or so, mainly Japanese ones these days) so I don't know for sure - I wonder if there's a game that isn't like that? Where your character doesn't improve during the course of the game in terms of artificial damage but only your own skill - so that, say, a tough enemy you met at the start would still be at least a minor challenge if you met that same enemy at the end. Kind of sounds like this wouldn't even be an RPG (without fake character advancement, levels, power-up items) but you could still have a group of characters, complex story, exploration, sidequests, tactics, etc. (And elves and dragons and whatever, although you might not be in a position to fight against the latter.) Would it be as fun? Dunno.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 11:33PM maxwell97 said

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@xxxsam True - most games are forgiving in terms of damage. The best games, IMHO, are those that are difficult enough to encourage smart, 'realistic' actions (like, if you charge a mob, you die), while forgiving enough that you're not constantly dying from factors beyond your control.

As for games where you don't really get stronger, one that leaps to mind is Demon's Souls (or Dark Souls, though I haven't played it yet). I still have fun farming the first level for healing items, because even a low-level enemy can hurt you if you don't pay attention. It's a game that's about 10% stats and 90% playing smart.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 6:44AM Algemar said

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Lands of Lore is such a great game. I impulse bought it when I was around eleven years old. I didn't realize until later it was done by Westwood Studios the (to my knowledge) creators of Command & Conquer.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 8:04AM Armengar said

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I played Krondor over and over when it came out. It was a great combination of graphics, gameplay, story and a huge world. This game actually made me start reading R.E. Feist's books, which the world was based on. Also the soundtrack was awesome, I think i'd could still hum the intro from beginning to end.

More on topic, I mostly played RPG's on the PC back then. (a lot of NES/SNES rpg's weren't available in the Netherlands) and really enjoyed the D&D stuff. When I found this game (which I picked mostly cause of the box-art), I was intrigued... and eventually I fell in love with the whole idea of having a big cast of characters with their own story and class/abilities. One of the reason I enjoyed a game like Dragon Age so much is cause it reminded me of this game :)

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 8:19AM xreadmore said

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I played both of those games!!! Didn't read the article but thought I'd comment about my nostalgia. That is all.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:20AM uncolober said

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>and Final Fantasy leading the way
How did he even manage misspell Dragon Quest that badly?

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 10:56AM ballistic90 said

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I played both games and some of their sequels, and they were a lot of fun. Unfortunately, I had the original releases and I could never get them to work on any Windows machines, dammit.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 11:34AM Cranky Penguin said

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I grew up on these games but I do think the author's premise is false. I think a classic JRPG like Skies of Arcadia had a lot in common with Ultima with its sense of exploration, random combat and leveling and that all games influence each other, no game exists in a vacuum. Plus I just wanted to mention Skies of Arcadia, IMHO the best RPG ever made and I am old enough to have grown up on Ultima. Although I could have done with a little less of the ship battles.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 12:33PM NickNameless said

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This article is an example of a faulty generalization called "hasty generalization", one which utilizes "cherry picked" evidence (another type of logical fallacy).

You may have found a few good exceptions to the rule, but it ignores the multitude of evidence that goes against your opinion.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 12:54PM Airk said

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I can't help but feel that whenever I read these threads, that most of the people in them don't even really know what they're talking about when they talk about JRPG mechanics.

Let's examine the latest entries in a few JRPG series, shall we?
Final Fantasy: Weird arsed semi-realtime paradigm based battle mechanics and nonlinear, choice-based character advancement. Similarity to the "Final Fantasy Template"? Basically zero.
Tales of Xillia: 100% realtime battle system with more depth and real gameplay value than most WRPGs. Resemblance to the "Final Fantasy Template"? Zero.
Atelier Series: Okay, now we finally have something that resembles the stereotypical JRPG turn-based battles, but 75% of the point of the game is actually the item crafting system. Resemblance to the "Final Fantasy Template"? Superficial.

I guess I could go off on Resonance of Fate, or Star Ocean 4, or Valkyria Chronicles or whatever, but what's the point? People are convinced there's some cohesive mechanical style in JRPGs, and there really isn't. There's probably less standardization than there is WRPGs, and there's not even that much THERE.

Posted: Feb 17th 2012 2:40PM (Unverified) said

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@Airk Exactly. Add in that most of those style have parallels to western RPGs, and you start to see just how blurry the lines are, especially with Demon's/Dark Souls.
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Posted: Feb 17th 2012 4:14PM Matrixxxx said

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Lands of Lore is easily my favorite RPG

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